BRIGGS wrote:D Lee started the game off strong but ended up being abused by Oneal.

Cause Lee is not a center. Please start Darko.

fishmike wrote:we chuck 3's with no regard. Its stupid. If nobody is in front of you dribble for a closer shot. I dont get it. Gallo is the only legit 3 point shooter we have. The rest of them just chuck hoping enough will go in. Its retarded. Its hard to watch

I saw Chandler do this once- where he was wide open at the 3, but took a couple dribbles in and hit a mid range shot.

Ira wrote:I was very interested in one remark by Frazier. I don't remember the exact words, but he said something to the effect that the critics would say the Knicks took too many threes. But that's what they do. They need to be more consistent on defense and make more of their threes.

I thought the Knicks got a lot of good open looks from behind the arc. But they weren't hitting enough of those shots. If the guys they have can't get it done in this system, they have to look for players who can hit their shots consistently.

Of the young players, Gallo and Chandler had good games. Douglas didn't look good in his first game, but it was just that.

BINGO.

my sentiments exactly. the system is fine, it's the lack of players or performance by enough of our current lot.

PresIke wrote:

Ira wrote:I was very interested in one remark by Frazier. I don't remember the exact words, but he said something to the effect that the critics would say the Knicks took too many threes. But that's what they do. They need to be more consistent on defense and make more of their threes.

I thought the Knicks got a lot of good open looks from behind the arc. But they weren't hitting enough of those shots. If the guys they have can't get it done in this system, they have to look for players who can hit their shots consistently.

Of the young players, Gallo and Chandler had good games. Douglas didn't look good in his first game, but it was just that.

BINGO.

my sentiments exactly. the system is fine, it's the lack of players or performance by enough of our current lot.

That is why Walsh wanted Stephen Curry so much. He would have been an absolute stud in this system.

djsunyc wrote:didn't watch the game but i have a question - did the defense look any better compared to last season?

In spots. When Darko, Gallo, Chandler were in our defense looked pretty good. When "No D Lee" was in it was the same as last season.

Also, Duhon was horrible guarding the perimeter. Nate was spotty.

TD in limited time played good D.

MS wrote:I'm sorry this team needed a post presence. Blair last night 14pts 11rbs 3ass in 22 minutes. Hill can't even crack the rotation on a lottery team.

Duhon should have been moved for a draft pick last season when he was having a great first half. I don't know how Donnie thinks we are building a winner without a point guard or a post presence. But the CAVs are 0-2 which is a great sign. They aren't getting to the ECF you can mark that off. They will have their hands full if they play the wizards even.

But have to be very discouraged that on opening night we get run off the court by a marginal team that will be an 8th/9th seed.

We are a 3 point shooting team with one guy who can shoot the 3
We dont have a post scorer or a playmaker to open things up and create easy shots
When we do get the open looks our marginal shooters dont make at a high %
We dont play the kind (any) of defense thats going to keep us in games

martin wrote:

MS wrote:Hill can't even crack the rotation on a lottery team.

Do you crack a smile after you repeatedly post the above while obviously ignoring the fact that the Knicks are PF/C heavy with Lee, Darko, Free Candy, JJ? I mean, it's clear that Hill is on a learning curve... what's new?

Martin - we might be PF/C heavy with the guys you mention, but they proved they can win 33 games - we're not talking about Bird, McHale and Parish. To keep trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results (e.g., playing Lee at the 5, same combo of guys) is insanity.

If we stood a chance of getting to the play offs - and I know that going by last nights game is nuts, but they showed nothing different from last year- then maybe it would be ok for MDA to go with a tight rotation.

But Hill needs to get regular time in game to develop. Not just garbage time - or if you want to give him garbage time, realize that with this current line up, every minute is garbage time.

I mean, why play Jefferies over Hill? JJ is what he is, and probably not moveable. Give Hill 10-15 every night, and see if he can grow and improve.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

MS wrote:Hill can't even crack the rotation on a lottery team.

Do you crack a smile after you repeatedly post the above while obviously ignoring the fact that the Knicks are PF/C heavy with Lee, Darko, Free Candy, JJ? I mean, it's clear that Hill is on a learning curve... what's new?

Martin - we might be PF/C heavy with the guys you mention, but they proved they can win 33 games - we're not talking about Bird, McHale and Parish. To keep trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results (e.g., playing Lee at the 5, same combo of guys) is insanity.

If we stood a chance of getting to the play offs - and I know that going by last nights game is nuts, but they showed nothing different from last year- then maybe it would be ok for MDA to go with a tight rotation.

But Hill needs to get regular time in game to develop. Not just garbage time - or if you want to give him garbage time, realize that with this current line up, every minute is garbage time.

I mean, why play Jefferies over Hill? JJ is what he is, and probably not moveable. Give Hill 10-15 every night, and see if he can grow and improve.

Good job Franco. I'm with ya here. It's not that Hill can't compete out there. Not at all true. He absolutely has the skills to do so -- it's that he's not being given a chance. And it's a mistake. The development process at the pro level that started during the summer with this guy has stopped. And I don't wanna hear top heavy nothin'. We have no post presence at all on this damn team. Let's go through our frontline once again to make sure we're all clear: Lee's a roving big man (Lee provides a ton of positives but he's just not a post player); Harrington used to play more in the post when he was younger but not anymore - now he'd rather stay out on the perimeter and shoot or drive the ball; Gallo, as of right now, is strictly a jumpshooter; Darko's contributions come mainly from staying out high and passing the ball to slashers/cutters (although I think he could do a little more but that's where Mike wants him); and JJ, though he trys hard, isn't that skilled at anything really. Hey I don't really have a problem with any of these guys. These guys are what they are man - let them continue to do their thing. Save for Gallo - now that the Rooster's healthy, I expect more from him & I'm gonna need to see him become more versatile out there in order to start feeling good about the guy.

Bottom line is Hill's perfect for this team right now. If used the right way, he'd give us exactly what we need (and trust me, I could deal with any mistakes he might make along the way - every rookie makes mistakes, it's expected). This guy refuses to play him though - I'm not saying he should be taking major minutes away from Lee and Harrington, I'm saying he should be coming off the bench with Gallo with that second unit. He should be afforded the same opportunity to compete on this 30-win club as Gallinari, a guy who probably has more flaws & shortcomings in his game than Hill does at this point. I think Hill should be playing above Jeffries, Curry and even Darko (I no longer wish to go out of my way to showcase either Jeffries and Curry btw - I'm now at peace with the fact that these two will be here through next year and that's that -- if a team needs a big man and miraculously comes calling for either of these guys, believe me, they know exactly what they bring to the table by now and they know what they'd be getting - neither one of these guys should take away from Hill's development as a Knick though as far as I'm concerned). I'd continue to spot Darko here and there as I think he could help against certain teams but again, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Jordan Hill for me. And this is coming from one of the few guys around here who likes Milicic and liked the Q trade to get him...It's not that Hill can't play for a lottery team as in he's not talented enough. That's a farce and simply not true. I don't wanna hear that nonsense..If I were the coach of this team coming off the season we just had and I gave my consent to drafting this guy that high, I'd have gone out of my way right from jump street to make sure he was built up enough to the point where he'd be able to play some decent minutes for me at this point. Instead, Mike abandoned the guy the whole preseason except for some meaningless minutes here and there (and I say meaningless because the few times he did play, instead of being instructed to camp out under the basket, he was asked to do other unconventional things that made little sense). Even in games where he had a decent showing in a first half, he never returned (the Philly preseason game at the Garden immediately comes to mind)..Either give this guy mins. because you're confident he can help you or send him to the damn D-League where he could at least get a chance to play.

Moonangie wrote:I think Hill is going to play later ths season. We need to showcase JJ right now because we want to move him b4 the deadline. We could get an expiring and/or a 2nd rounder for him. He has some good skills. Hill is a rookie, he is green and rough atm, and he must crack the rotation just like any other rookie.

they should send him to the d-league...these guys need to be playing, not sitting on the bench. let him work out his wiggles there for a while.

Paladin55 wrote:

Finestrg wrote:
Good job Franco. I'm with ya here. It's not that Hill can't compete out there. Not at all true. He absolutely has the skills to do so -- it's that he's not being given a chance. And it's a mistake. The development process at the pro level that started during the summer with this guy has stopped. And I don't wanna hear top heavy nothin'. We have no post presence at all on this damn team. Let's go through our frontline once again to make sure we're all clear: Lee's a roving big man (Lee provides a ton of positives but he's just not a post player); Harrington used to play more in the post when he was younger but not anymore - now he'd rather stay out on the perimeter and shoot or drive the ball; Gallo, as of right now, is strictly a jumpshooter; Darko's contributions come mainly from staying out high and passing the ball to slashers/cutters (although I think he could do a little more but that's where Mike wants him); and JJ, though he trys hard, isn't that skilled at anything really. Hey I don't really have a problem with any of these guys. These guys are what they are man - let them continue to do their thing. Save for Gallo - now that the Rooster's healthy, I expect more from him & I'm gonna need to see him become more versatile out there in order to start feeling good about the guy.

Bottom line is Hill's perfect for this team right now. If used the right way, he'd give us exactly what we need (and trust me, I could deal with any mistakes he might make along the way - every rookie makes mistakes, it's expected). This guy refuses to play him though - I'm not saying he should be taking major minutes away from Lee and Harrington, I'm saying he should be coming off the bench with Gallo with that second unit. He should be afforded the same opportunity to compete on this 30-win club as Gallinari, a guy who probably has more flaws & shortcomings in his game than Hill does at this point. I think Hill should be playing above Jeffries, Curry and even Darko (I no longer wish to go out of my way to showcase either Jeffries and Curry btw - I'm now at peace with the fact that these two will be here through next year and that's that -- if a team needs a big man and miraculously comes calling for either of these guys, believe me, they know exactly what they bring to the table by now and they know what they'd be getting - neither one of these guys should take away from Hill's development as a Knick though as far as I'm concerned). I'd continue to spot Darko here and there as I think he could help against certain teams but again, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Jordan Hill for me. And this is coming from one of the few guys around here who likes Milicic and liked the Q trade to get him...It's not that Hill can't play for a lottery team as in he's not talented enough. That's a farce and simply not true. I don't wanna hear that nonsense..If I were the coach of this team coming off the season we just had and I gave my consent to drafting this guy that high, I'd have gone out of my way right from jump street to make sure he was built up enough to the point where he'd be able to play some decent minutes for me at this point. Instead, Mike abandoned the guy the whole preseason except for some meaningless minutes here and there (and I say meaningless because the few times he did play, instead of being instructed to camp out under the basket, he was asked to do other unconventional things that made little sense). Even in games where he had a decent showing in a first half, he never returned (the Philly preseason game at the Garden immediately comes to mind)..Either give this guy mins. because you're confident he can help you or send him to the damn D-League where he could at least get a chance to play.

The one thing that none of us really get to see, or hear detailed reports about, is how players are doing in the practice scrimmages out of the public eye. You have to listen to and analyze the comments coming from MDA and Walsh like the U.S. used to analyze Soviet Union speeches and determining which leaders were in or out of favor based on where were standing or seated in photos or videos seen by U.S. analysts during the Cold War.

I became a bit worried about the Hill pick when I saw the word "raw" used over and over again in describing Hill. That told me he was not ready yet, and even Hill seems hesitant to say he deserves minutes at this point. Raw has been a word linked to Hill, and I seem to recall Chander being mentioned along with the R word, but you have not really heard it used with Gallo, Douglas, and even Landry, our other young players.

To me raw means that the player is lacking in certain areas of technique and understanding of how to play the game, and it is a word used because the coach or GM of a team observes a player not only in games which we see, but in the practice gym. And you are not only looking at what the player does, but what he does not do, when making judgments.

People are talking as if Hill is someone the staff does not see play on a daily basis in practice. You all know that this is not the case, but many people act as if the only way to evaluate a player and help him to grow is to watch or play him in games against an outside opponents. In the early part of the season he is going to have to earn his minutes by playing well in practice, I would think.

With that said, if the Knicks fall rapidly out of playoff contention, I would see no reason not to increase Hill's minutes and let him play through the bad moments. Right now, however, MDA/Walsh are going to play the guys they think give us the best chance to win at this moment, and that means Hill rides the pine unless we are out of contention or the guys ahead of him get hurt.

I hear what you're saying but as far as I know from what I've read ever since training camp broke, practice reports have been pretty positive. After a slow start, all we began to hear was Hill had a good week, a good last practice, etc... And as late as last night, forgot who it was, maybe Al Trautwig or Kelly T. on the pre or post game, said Hill's been putting in extra work with Harrington after practice recently. Sounds like he's taking practice serious enough...

And just to clarify my own definition of "raw" -- I absolutely do not consider this kid Hill raw. You wanna say a little inexperienced because he's only been playing competitive ball for about 5 years (although he played at a very high level last year), OK, I guess that applies. But to call this guy raw after seeing him put his whole impressive arsenal of skills on display last year to great effect - I just don't see it man. Sorry. Raw = a combination of two things - lack of skill & inexperience - but to me it has much more to do with the former than the latter. Just talking big men, a guy like Saer Sene's raw for example. To a lesser degree Patrick O'Bryant, DeAndre Jordan. Guys that were drafted more for their potential down the road over anything else. I even look at Hasheem Thabeet as being a bit on the raw side. For me it doesn't mean a guy with a "raw" skill set can't contribute, it just means their games need more fine tuning than even your average skilled player. That's not how I see Jordan Hill. Hill is not lacking in the skill department at all. I actually see a guy with a good deal of polish offensively. In addition he's athletic, has a great nose for the ball and is lightning quick to loose balls (he's a superior rebounder) and while he's no Thabeet, Taj Gibson, Jarvis Varnado or Larry Sanders in the shot-blocking department, he's shown signs of being productive in this area as well. He's got everything going for him right now except a coach who believes in him and believes he has what it takes to help this severely limited, incomplete team. If he did have D'Antoni's confidence, he'd be a part of this rotation by now. I mean honestly, I don't get D'Antoni on this kid at all fellas. First we draft the guy and Mike comes out with the Amar'e Stoudemire comparisons. Then he has a decent summer league where he was obviously rusty and nervous at first but still managed to show pretty well overall by week's end. Then all of a sudden training camp gets underway and Mike suddenly pulls a 180 on the kid and starts ridiculing him to the press, calling him a "deer in headlights." And this is after Hill was seen playing severely out of position on the court in the limited PT he did get, which is by design by our unconventional coach. Well I'm here to tell ya that's not how he played in college or even in the summer league for that matter (Phil Weber had this guy positioned right where he was supposed to be). Honestly, what gives? I don't have any idea what Mike's up to with this kid. Meanwhile, the team & the fans are made to suffer as a skilled, legit weapon just sits around collecting dust instead of helping us...