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Walsh/MDA
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knicks1248
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7/23/2009  4:51 PM
That's the point I'm making..some of you guys are saying how can you juge gallo when he really hasn't played..

You basically drafted a guy who had to sit a year cause of injury. That's a problem right there, there's no question gallo has skills, but right now he has an injury prone label. How is that a solid pick. Now if he plays all 82 games this year and has no reoccuring back problems then walsh will get credit, thus far he is a terrible pick let's face it.

How can you say to youself a guy that took a bumb and had to miss 50+ games cause of it a good pick. Some one explain that.
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Bippity10
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7/23/2009  4:51 PM
Posted by McK1:

Wilcox was 13 and 7 in seattle. He probably would've looked a lot closer to that player if NY had a pg on Luke Ridnours level or better running the offense.

There's actually nothing wrong with Wilcox' talent. I would be happy if Hill has Wilcox' talent. I just hope that Hill puts that talent to better use than Wilcox has.
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nyk4ever
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7/23/2009  4:53 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by GodSaveTheKnicks:
Posted by knicks1248:

I'm judging walsh up to today..not 2k10..and as you can see no ones really impress or confident he will be able to makes us a title contender..and he isn't doing anything remotely close to impressive thus far this off season..

His luke warm draft picks and trades haven't raise any attn what's so ever
This off season
MDA as well..his first full season as coach has lead us to 9 more wins and a massive controversial episode with marbury and a fragile high ass draft pick in DG.

We all are happy with the cap space and the flex room, but most of us are sick of hering a wait till next year.

How can you judge a GM after ONE season?

I don't think anyone is trying to say Walsh is a perfect GM. There is no such thing.

Even Isiah was given quite a few seasons and mistakes before people turned on him.


he has 2 drafts under his belt. its fair to start analyzing

2 drafts. How do you analyze guys that haven't played?

you can analyze a guys skillset and see the fit or lack there of

With Gallo there is always a role for a big guy who can stretch the defense with his shooting. Dunno if that makes him a top 6 pick and his back has thus far prevented us from seeing it. Still you can see the fit. Should Walsh have went defense with Randolph? In hindsight probably. His offense has caught up quick and the League is starting to put his name out there:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ai_61bVyPhzI.wWirOvXRHS8vLYF?slug=mc-randolphwarriors072109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

As for Gallo the bigger issue at the moment is does he have a back problem and did they know? At least before he went down in summer league he looked like he will put points on the board from outside as advertised.

Hill has a couple nice post moves. However he was for the most part slow running end to end. He offered zero resistance when defending the post. he was weak going to the defensive glass. he showed no defensive awareness when plays came towards his side of the floor. Could've paid Wilcox to bring the same height size athleticism and skillset. NY passed up alot of guard talent to draft this guy when the biggest hole in the roster is in the backcourt.

Douglas showed he can be a capable 3rd pg and good 4th guard overall. Excellent use of the 29th pick by Walsh. Any solid rotation has a guy like Tony Douglas off the bench. He may one day win the Anthony Johnson award.

Actually the wording of my question was incorrect. You can analyze the draft picks the moment you see them play. You can analyze Walsh the moment he makes his first move. But how do you hold his draft picks against him when they haven't played? I've asked that a few times, still not sure I've gotten a legitimate answer. If Walsh drafts Hill, and I hate Hill and think he sucks, does that really matter. I can predict until the cows come home, but if the guy scores 30 points a game, what does my prediction mean. Last year, Walsh got killed for taking Gallinari over Bayless(among others). You get the point? Difficult to judge a guy on draft picks before those draft picks play.

Example: I thought Balkman was the dumbest draft pick in years. But despite my thought, I still was more than willing to let Balkman play out before I held Isiah accountable for it. I feel the same way about Hill and Gallinari. I had no idea who Gallinari was. I wanted Gordan or Alexander. But I have no problem giving Gallo time. Why not? Why upset myself for no reason? Same goes for Hill.

Good post Bip. I wasn't particularly happy with either the Hill or the Gallo picks but I'm more than willing to let both play and judge them on how they actually end up playing.
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Bippity10
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7/23/2009  4:57 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

That's the point I'm making..some of you guys are saying how can you juge gallo when he really hasn't played..

You basically drafted a guy who had to sit a year cause of injury. That's a problem right there, there's no question gallo has skills, but right now he has an injury prone label. How is that a solid pick. Now if he plays all 82 games this year and has no reoccuring back problems then walsh will get credit, thus far he is a terrible pick let's face it.

How can you say to youself a guy that took a bumb and had to miss 50+ games cause of it a good pick. Some one explain that.

Of course that's disconcerting that he had an injury. Of course he has to prove himself. If he plays and is healthy it's water under the bridge. If he has a recurring injury it's horrible for the Knicks, but how do you hold a GM "accountable" for an injury. I could see if he has a history of drafting guys with career threatening injuries but........If Gallo goes down I personally chalk it up to bad luck. Until you can prove to me that Walsh knew he had some pre-existing condition I have no reason to blame him for this. Was the Chicago GM held accountable when Michael Jordan went down with a broken foot his second year? What if that foot became a chronic problem?

Until Gallo proves to be chronically injured, or proves to be a horrible player, why get all worked up over him being chronically injured and sucking and blame the GM for a horrible pick, when we have no idea what the outcome will be.

Remember the greatest player in NBA history missed almost all of his 2nd year with a broken foot. Maybe Chicago should have fired the stupid GM midseason for drafting him. I mean, dam-n it could have been chronic.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 23-07-2009 4:57 PM]
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/23/2009  5:01 PM
I am guilty of judging Hill a bust before I'd seen him really play.

Someone on the TWolves board declared you needed 2 years to judge a GM's offseason or drafts.

Sensible or crazy?
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Bippity10
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7/23/2009  5:16 PM
Posted by GodSaveTheKnicks:

I am guilty of judging Hill a bust before I'd seen him really play.

Someone on the TWolves board declared you needed 2 years to judge a GM's offseason or drafts.

Sensible or crazy?

Just look at the history of the NBA. Every starter was a rookie at some point. If you go through the career stats of the average NBA starters they are all over the map. Some guys come in and do nothing for a few years and then blossom. Some guys have a steady progression forward. Some guys come in and do great the first couple years and then flame out. You can judge a guys current talent. But you can't predict how big the guys heart is, how hard he will work, how money will affect his work ethic, how well the coaches will be able to get through to a player, how life's events will affect him etc..........

There is no real way to predict. The only guys you can guess are the once in a life time talents like Lebron and Michael etc. The rest you really have to draft a guy with talent and hope he develops.

I'll give you an example: Cliff Robinson had unreal talent in college, but he had a reputation for being lazy, had a bad attitude and off and on motivation. He was predicted to go in the top 10 but ended up lasting until 36. When he retired he said(I'm paraphrasing):

"If I had been drafted number 1 and given a boatload of money who knows how my career would have ended up. 20 years?.........then he laughed"

Circumstances motivated him. You really can't tell how fast a player is going to pick up things, and what he will be as a player for at least 2 years, and with some it takes more.
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/23/2009  5:28 PM
Well..hopefully this board and all of us will be alive and well in a few years and we can either say "I told you Jordan Hill was going to be somebody!" or 'I told you he was a bust!"

I suppose that's the fun of it.

I'd love for there to be more reasoned discussion on these types of boards in general rather than people coming from an I am so damn wise and all knowing perspective.
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
McK1
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7/23/2009  6:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:



Actually the wording of my question was incorrect. You can analyze the draft picks the moment you see them play. You can analyze Walsh the moment he makes his first move. But how do you hold his draft picks against him when they haven't played? I've asked that a few times, still not sure I've gotten a legitimate answer. If Walsh drafts Hill, and I hate Hill and think he sucks, does that really matter. I can predict until the cows come home, but if the guy scores 30 points a game, what does my prediction mean. Last year, Walsh got killed for taking Gallinari over Bayless(among others). You get the point? Difficult to judge a guy on draft picks before those draft picks play.

Example: I thought Balkman was the dumbest draft pick in years. But despite my thought, I still was more than willing to let Balkman play out before I held Isiah accountable for it. I feel the same way about Hill and Gallinari. I had no idea who Gallinari was. I wanted Gordan or Alexander. But I have no problem giving Gallo time. Why not? Why upset myself for no reason? Same goes for Hill.

Its a presumption. I wasn't impressed with hill in college. watching him I thought he was another soft Arizona big with even less skill than Frye. SL only helped to cement my feelings.



the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/23/2009  7:59 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:



Actually the wording of my question was incorrect. You can analyze the draft picks the moment you see them play. You can analyze Walsh the moment he makes his first move. But how do you hold his draft picks against him when they haven't played? I've asked that a few times, still not sure I've gotten a legitimate answer. If Walsh drafts Hill, and I hate Hill and think he sucks, does that really matter. I can predict until the cows come home, but if the guy scores 30 points a game, what does my prediction mean. Last year, Walsh got killed for taking Gallinari over Bayless(among others). You get the point? Difficult to judge a guy on draft picks before those draft picks play.

Example: I thought Balkman was the dumbest draft pick in years. But despite my thought, I still was more than willing to let Balkman play out before I held Isiah accountable for it. I feel the same way about Hill and Gallinari. I had no idea who Gallinari was. I wanted Gordan or Alexander. But I have no problem giving Gallo time. Why not? Why upset myself for no reason? Same goes for Hill.

Its a presumption. I wasn't impressed with hill in college. watching him I thought he was another soft Arizona big with even less skill than Frye. SL only helped to cement my feelings.



Again, nothing wrong with your prediction. We all make predictions and I don't criticize you for that. I just disagree with holding a GM accountable for my predictions.
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TMS
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7/23/2009  11:13 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:

Wilcox was 13 and 7 in seattle. He probably would've looked a lot closer to that player if NY had a pg on Luke Ridnours level or better running the offense.

There's actually nothing wrong with Wilcox' talent. I would be happy if Hill has Wilcox' talent. I just hope that Hill puts that talent to better use than Wilcox has.

that's exactly what i've been saying... Wilcox has all the tools & ability just like Jordan Hill does, but it's the work ethic that will hopefully separate the 2... from what i can tell & from the improvement in his game in college from his freshman year forward i think he's got that determination to work hard & improve his game.
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knicks1248
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7/24/2009  10:40 AM
I know the draft can be a crap shoot. But most successful franchise's do there homework diligently And DG toughness and durability had been in question from jump.

I don't consider it a work out when u bring a kid in have him do a bunch of non contact drills shooting a million jumpers and lay ups .

Back injuries never just go away despite any thing you do. The pain may subside, but never completely go away.. So how am I suppose to feel confident about DG.

The one thing that's been consistent with MDA/walsh is there propensity to draft soft ass players that .
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Marv
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7/24/2009  10:43 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

I know the draft can be a crap shoot. But most successful franchise's do there homework diligently And DG toughness and durability had been in question from jump.

I don't consider it a work out when u bring a kid in have him do a bunch of non contact drills shooting a million jumpers and lay ups .

Back injuries never just go away despite any thing you do. The pain may subside, but never completely go away.. So how am I suppose to feel confident about DG.

The one thing that's been consistent with MDA/walsh is there propensity to draft soft ass players that .

his toughness and durability and leadership were lauded by all the scouts and reporters who regularly attended his games.
Bippity10
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7/24/2009  11:37 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by knicks1248:

I know the draft can be a crap shoot. But most successful franchise's do there homework diligently And DG toughness and durability had been in question from jump.

I don't consider it a work out when u bring a kid in have him do a bunch of non contact drills shooting a million jumpers and lay ups .

Back injuries never just go away despite any thing you do. The pain may subside, but never completely go away.. So how am I suppose to feel confident about DG.

The one thing that's been consistent with MDA/walsh is there propensity to draft soft ass players that .

his toughness and durability and leadership were lauded by all the scouts and reporters who regularly attended his games.

Again, this is more of a scouting report than anything else. Danilo may be a soft perimeter player. Hill may be a soft interior player. Douglas will leave out of the conversation because he is far from soft. So that's two top draft picks who may someday prove to be soft as tissue paper. I emphasize the word MAY. We won't know until they play. So again, we can make all the predictions we want, but until they actually come true you can't hold Walsh responsible for your predictions. Gotta be honest with you, that's borderline crazy behavior.

"Yes, I hired you to be my assistant. In this role you need to have strong attention to detail. I don't know if you have strong attention to detail but I predict that you won't, so you are fired for not holding up to your end of the bargain!"

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-07-2009 11:38 AM]
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newyorknewyork
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7/24/2009  12:02 PM
From what I remember Gallo's toughness was a attribute not a weakness.

A guy who got better as the situation become more intense. A guy who hits big shots, clutch shots, a guy who got to the line at a pretty good rate in Europe.

The reason he got hurt was because he wanted to challenge the over sized Tractor Trailor in the paint and show is toughness. He showed it but it back fired.

He did have a couple of minor injuries when he played that had him miss a couple games here and there, but nothing that had to do with his back or had him miss long period of time.

If anything was considered soft about him it was that he didn't rebound enough defensively. Though David Lee is one of the best glass cleaners in the league and he is still considered soft so.
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BasketballJones
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7/24/2009  12:08 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by knicks1248:

I know the draft can be a crap shoot. But most successful franchise's do there homework diligently And DG toughness and durability had been in question from jump.

I don't consider it a work out when u bring a kid in have him do a bunch of non contact drills shooting a million jumpers and lay ups .

Back injuries never just go away despite any thing you do. The pain may subside, but never completely go away.. So how am I suppose to feel confident about DG.

The one thing that's been consistent with MDA/walsh is there propensity to draft soft ass players that .

his toughness and durability and leadership were lauded by all the scouts and reporters who regularly attended his games.

Again, this is more of a scouting report than anything else. Danilo may be a soft perimeter player. Hill may be a soft interior player. Douglas will leave out of the conversation because he is far from soft. So that's two top draft picks who may someday prove to be soft as tissue paper. I emphasize the word MAY. We won't know until they play. So again, we can make all the predictions we want, but until they actually come true you can't hold Walsh responsible for your predictions. Gotta be honest with you, that's borderline crazy behavior.

"Yes, I hired you to be my assistant. In this role you need to have strong attention to detail. I don't know if you have strong attention to detail but I predict that you won't, so you are fired for not holding up to your end of the bargain!"

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-07-2009 11:38 AM]

[Bippity10]
They could turn out to be great players. Then again, they may not. The only way we can find out is by waiting until they play. Even then we wouldn't really know, because it is possible that they COULD perform better in a different system, with a different team, in a different solar system, or in an alternate universe. I firmly believe that it's possible that they could all turn out to be great players. It's also possible that they could all suck. A third possibility also exists: One or two of them may be good and the other one or two bad. We won't know until we actually see them play.
[/Bippity10]

[Edited by - basketballjones on 07-24-2009 12:09 PM]
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