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nixluva
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7/27/2007  9:54 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by nixluva:

I'm just glad that we have the kind of talent on this team that we can get behind for the next 5-6 years. It's clear as day to me that we have a lot of good young talent and that we should be a playoff team with what we have. All the details will be up to Isiah, but I like what I saw with this team at times last year. They were the most consistently up and down team but you could see where the problems were and I think we're getting closer to fixing some of those issues, with the players we have coming up.

Of course there's no guarantee that they work out, but so far Isiah has been pretty good at finding guys that can produce on this level in the draft. Let's hope that this years crop is yet again good enough to help us this year and in the future.

Nix: If Isiah hadn't wasted so much time going after fantasy players and blowing money on malcontents he could be considered a great GM. His drafting skills and ability to get young players is undisputed. The problem is that he is his own worst enemy. I love the young players. I think everyone should give them as much love as possible because Isiah could very easily get rid of them tomorrow for the next big "star".

Well I would tend to agree with Misterearl. I 've said it before that Dolan has a style of ownership that he models a bit after George Steinbrenner. He's always looking to make sure the Knicks have some marquee marketability. This means that isiah not only had to try and make the team better, but the splashy moves and big money deals is part of the package when Dolan is your owner. All Dolan wants when he comes to the games is a good show and a full house. He could care less about a title.

Still tho, Isiah despite his situation and his flaws, has been crafty in making over this team. You look at the team and you almost don't realize what he's done in 3.5 seasons.


Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

I look at this group of guys and I see nice young talent. All near enough in age to be together for a good long run. We have just as much overall talent as any other young team. This is a very good time for Knicks fans. This is not a time to be fearful or gloomy. It's not an aging team that has not hope for the future.
We've got enough capable vets to be good right now, so I see very little reason to be pessimistic. I'm excited about the season and those to come. We've already hit rock bottom and are on the way back up.
AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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7/27/2007  10:00 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by nixluva:

I'm just glad that we have the kind of talent on this team that we can get behind for the next 5-6 years. It's clear as day to me that we have a lot of good young talent and that we should be a playoff team with what we have. All the details will be up to Isiah, but I like what I saw with this team at times last year. They were the most consistently up and down team but you could see where the problems were and I think we're getting closer to fixing some of those issues, with the players we have coming up.

Of course there's no guarantee that they work out, but so far Isiah has been pretty good at finding guys that can produce on this level in the draft. Let's hope that this years crop is yet again good enough to help us this year and in the future.

Nix: If Isiah hadn't wasted so much time going after fantasy players and blowing money on malcontents he could be considered a great GM. His drafting skills and ability to get young players is undisputed. The problem is that he is his own worst enemy. I love the young players. I think everyone should give them as much love as possible because Isiah could very easily get rid of them tomorrow for the next big "star".

Well I would tend to agree with Misterearl. I 've said it before that Dolan has a style of ownership that he models a bit after George Steinbrenner. He's always looking to make sure the Knicks have some marquee marketability. This means that isiah not only had to try and make the team better, but the splashy moves and big money deals is part of the package when Dolan is your owner. All Dolan wants when he comes to the games is a good show and a full house. He could care less about a title.

Still tho, Isiah despite his situation and his flaws, has been crafty in making over this team. You look at the team and you almost don't realize what he's done in 3.5 seasons.


Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

I look at this group of guys and I see nice young talent. All near enough in age to be together for a good long run. We have just as much overall talent as any other young team. This is a very good time for Knicks fans. This is not a time to be fearful or gloomy. It's not an aging team that has not hope for the future.
We've got enough capable vets to be good right now, so I see very little reason to be pessimistic. I'm excited about the season and those to come. We've already hit rock bottom and are on the way back up.

at some point tho, wins have to matter but that's up to dolan.
nixluva
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7/27/2007  10:11 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

at some point tho, wins have to matter but that's up to dolan.

Hey I agree with you. When I look at this team I can see wins coming. I think Isiah has always wanted to win, he craves the respect and adulation of his peers and despite Dolan he wants to be a winner here in NY.
He's been learning from his mistakes but still sticking to what he believes will work. I think he's very close to achieving his goal for the team.

Even tho I don't really trust Artest and fear what he might do if we added him, there's no question that if Isiah did get him that we'd be a favorite in the East if we added him. If this team is that close to being in that position, then I think Isiah has done a good job with this team, despite the record.

People are willing to endure 3-7 years of losing waiting on a rebuild, so if this team achieves the level of title contender in just 3.5 years, I see that as a good job for a GM. We'll have to see what happens, but I get the sense that Isiah is willing to make that kind of move for a high risk, high reward player like Artest.
If he comes I won't bash the move, but I am concerned. Not about his playing, just his behavior.
misterearl
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7/30/2007  9:19 AM
The Dirty Dozen

Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

nixluva - thank you for the accurate ages of Knicks Yoots

Anyone who refuses to accept the rebuild/overhaul/maintenance/major surgery that has taken place with the Knicks roster is simply stuck on past issues.

That's just being stubborn.

Somewhere, Isiah is calling Kevin Garnett on his cel phone.

"Do you REALLY want to play in Boston... or would you consider Broadway a better stage for your talent?..."

once a knick always a knick
islesfan
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7/30/2007  11:02 AM
Posted by misterearl:

The Dirty Dozen

Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

And not a single all star or anything remotely close to a franchise player amongst them.

Dirty indeed.

It's not all about age.

Sheesh
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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7/30/2007  11:15 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by misterearl:

The Dirty Dozen

Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

And not a single all star or anything remotely close to a franchise player amongst them.

Dirty indeed.

It's not all about age.

Sheesh

Now you know that it can take time for a player to reach the level where he is considered for All Star selection. Zach is close to that level now and maybe Lee or Curry can reach that level. It's really not that important. What's important is that the TEAM itself comes together and plays winning ball. If they do that and have no All Stars, who cares?

The age thing is always just a part of the positive picture. We also have quite a lot of talented players. I find it hard to believe that you can look at that roster and not see the talent we have. Unless you just want to close your eyes to what kind of talent these guys have. I would think most fans are happy about the state of the teams development so far. I would think most are anxious to see what these guys can do and how they develop. We just saw how well our group of young talent played against other teams young talent and even tho it's SL, that still is good to see.
Masterplan
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7/30/2007  11:17 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by misterearl:

The Dirty Dozen

Jamal - 27
Quentin - 27
Zach - 26
Jared - 25 (26 in nov.)
Curry - 24 (25 in dec.)
Lee - 24
Nate - 23
Balkman - 23
Mardy - 22 (23 in aug.)
Nichols - 22 (23 in sep.)
Morris - 21
Chandler - 20

And not a single all star or anything remotely close to a franchise player amongst them.

Dirty indeed.

It's not all about age.

Sheesh

i think the real problem is that there are 12 names on the list. no team runs a rotation that deep. we need to commit to a core- probably no more than 8 "young" players from that list. bring in experienced vets, known entitites that fill needs to complete the rotation. everyone else sits, so it doesn't matter if they're 20 or 50 years old.

it's not a bad problem to have, but tough decisions need to be made. until they are, we're just a collection of assets, not a team with shot at winning anything.
islesfan
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7/30/2007  11:23 AM
12 players and only 2 or 3 legitimate NBA starters with 2 others being fringe.

Gotta love a long list of role players and future DNP's.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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7/30/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>Nix: If Isiah hadn't wasted so much time going after fantasy players and blowing money on malcontents he could be considered a great GM.

bippity - would you consider that given the inherited roster, combined with the Cablevision mission to maintain subscriptions and the often-neglected nature of doing business with your competition...

that spending Dolan's money and the pursuit of marketable assets was not a waste of time... but a necessary step in the painful process of changing the traditional business model of the New York Knicks basketball franchise?

No matter what the opinion of the blueprint, the Knicks are poised to open camp with a yoot-dominated (players 27 and under) rebuild of a roster that fans just may grow to like.

That is, if you are a fan who pledged patience (kinda like the seven years it took the Bulls to re-reach the playoffs) for a "rebuild" or a fan who wants the knicks to succeed.

nyk4ever - I'm on vacation dude. Just got back from Las Vegas and headed to the Outer Banks of North Carolina.

Thanks for caring.

So we are saying that trading for Steve Francis and signing Jerome James and overpaying for JJ2 the same year you darft a player just like him were necessary moves to offset the evil done by Layden? Riiiiiiiight.

You keep trying to excite me about the youth. You keep with these youth themed posts as if I don't like the youth. I'm not sure if you are having this argument with someone else and just have a hard time seperating posters or not. I like the youth. I am excited about the youth. But as long as you fill the roster with guys in their way that youth has a ceiling. Until Isiah commits to a corp group and decides to wait for it to develop instead of jettisoning or blocking the youth from being in the rotation fans will always be skeptical.
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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7/30/2007  12:58 PM
bippity - knowing what Isiah is thinking is damn near impossible, but let's take a closer look at who could quite possibly constitute the core players in 2008-2009

Provided Eddy Curry can get totally re-focused on basketball by September, let's consider that the frontcourt rotation includes four decent components:

Curry - Randolph - Lee - Balkman and a player to be named later

That's five

The backcourt will consist of Marbury, Collins, Crawford and the next best performer in training camp

That's nine

For me, it's not so much who Isiah commits to, but who the top performers are when the bell rings in October

Imagine if Nichols or Chandler forget they are rookies
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/30/2007  1:01 PM
one more thing

"we" didn't overpay for anything

it's Dolan's money
once a knick always a knick
islesfan
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7/30/2007  1:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

one more thing

"we" didn't overpay for anything

it's Dolan's money

Guess where Dolan gets "his" money.

Other from his Daddy.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Panos
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7/30/2007  1:20 PM
Posted by misterearl:

one more thing

"we" didn't overpay for anything

it's Dolan's money

"We" overpay for it by being fans of a team that is strangled by the salary cap.
Stop the ignorance.
TrueBlue
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7/30/2007  1:34 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by misterearl:

one more thing

"we" didn't overpay for anything

it's Dolan's money

"We" overpay for it by being fans of a team that is strangled by the salary cap.
Stop the ignorance.


A Troll doesn't care about this team's financial situation.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bippity10
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7/30/2007  1:53 PM
Posted by misterearl:

bippity - knowing what Isiah is thinking is damn near impossible, but let's take a closer look at who could quite possibly constitute the core players in 2008-2009

Provided Eddy Curry can get totally re-focused on basketball by September, let's consider that the frontcourt rotation includes four decent components:

Curry - Randolph - Lee - Balkman and a player to be named later

That's five

The backcourt will consist of Marbury, Collins, Crawford and the next best performer in training camp

That's nine

For me, it's not so much who Isiah commits to, but who the top performers are when the bell rings in October

Imagine if Nichols or Chandler forget they are rookies


Again, I agree with you but I am not focused on what this team will do this October. What we are actually talking about is where we are headed long-term. The problem in NY in the past has been that we are focused upon year to year results and not the long-term. I can't tell what Isiah is thinking but I can go by his moves. When you give JJ a billion dollars because you don't have a center, it just screams lack of forethought. Steve Francis was traded to please a mismatch coach. JJ2 was overpaid because we had a team that lacked energy and didn't play D and were desperate for anyone that could provide this. Never mind that these players aren't needed for the long-term plan. Mistakes are allowed when you are a GM. But consistenlty making moves for guys that don't fit is jsut plain odd.

So the past is the past and here we are today. WE are in position to trim the fat and start building around our young core and really set ourselves up for the future. But most fans are not 100% sure that Isiah isn't priming himself to make a trade for the next big "star"(who will end up being someone else's castoff).

I think that is the psychology behind why very few can actually get behind Isiah. Right or wrong, it's reality and only oncourt results are going to change it. We've been losing for too long to give blind faith support to anyone.
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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7/30/2007  4:43 PM
TrueBlue - you are correct. I could care less about the Knicks financial position. The NY basketball franchise balance sheet, which a minor sub category in the Cablevision Annual Report, does not make one iota of difference in my quality of life





as a matter of fact, the Knicks have always operated over the prescribed salary standards recommended by the NBA since the days of Gulf+Western. Arguing in favor of Dolan suddenly changing course and changing corporate philosophy to limbo under some league-prescribed cash threshold is, in my humble (but oh so valid) opinion is a waste of time.

this is new york

it ain't that kiind of party

never has been. never will be.

what matters is upgrading the skill-level of talent on the roster to strengthen the negotiating position with your competition.

what matters is bundling the appropriate salaries with the appropriate younger players to gradually improve from year to year and have some hope for a brighter future

what matters is making the playoffs to reap the benefits of the extra performance evenings and related prozes

what matters is winning

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/30/2007  4:48 PM
bippity - could Isiah still make a run at Kevin Garnett?

is he in a better place to negotiate, based on the talent on the NYK roster, with his competitors than he was a year ago?

Nowhere am I suggesting blind faith to anything or anyone.

what I AM suggesting is that anyone who thinks building from the starting point of 2004 to the present is as straight-line smooth and painless as plugging some randomw numbers on Real GM is being blindly naive to the real world scenario where the enemy is your trading partner

I am suggesting that with all the nornal flaws of any general manager, Isiah Thomas knows what he is looking at and is on the right track

fuggeabout kvetching over Jerome James and Jared Jeffries. If they don't produce to his standards, guess what?

they will be history just like steve francis, channing frye and penny hardaway

you gottta break some eggs to make an omelette

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-30-2007 4:55 PM]
once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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7/31/2007  8:55 AM
You're right let's just excuse moves like Francis and James and Jeffries. I am overblowing them. They really don't affect us at all. We could make at least 3 or 4 more moves like that and it won't affect us at all. Who cares if a guy is a fit for the current roster, let's just get them, see if they fit, if we find out 2 years from now that they don't we just buy them out.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 31-07-2007 08:58 AM]
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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7/31/2007  11:57 AM
Bippity - would you consider the interim moves were necessary moves to arrive at a place where the roster was suddenly dominated with players 27 and under?

unlike the "blow-it-uppers" who think that it's so simple as trading dreck for higher quality and free first round picks ... then simply cutting/releasing/buying out the rest...

the road to a rebuild in New York is paved with a lot more potholes

(not the least of which is the corporate mission statement)

a lot more
once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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7/31/2007  1:14 PM
No, JJ, Steve Francis and JJ2 were not necessary. Ariza was already a young-un and did not need to be replaced for a guy that did not fit. JJ got paid for accomplishing nothing. JJ2 was acquired because we spent the first 2 years acquiring so many guys that didn't try hard that we were desperate for anyone that could provide us with any sort of energy. These moves were not made to rid our roster of high salaries. They actually added guys with high salaries and did nothing to enhance any current or future trades.
I just hope that people will like me
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