martin wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Moses was with Westchester three times. He was given "a shot".
I trust our FO has been thinking about this way longer than since the end of June.
There are contingencies beyond our scope and it will just need to be played out.

If we feel victomized by the apron one has to consider that for Knicks to have one so many things have to fall into place. INjuries to other teams players, trades, trades by other teams, and the apron effect on other teams like Boston and perhaps Detroit whom both had really nice regular seasons but could, or choose not to spend. That opened our window. Thus, that which helped now hinders?

In this era nobody can really run it all the back with the same squad. That we had only one leave is quite remarkable.
This team deserves to come bacm mostly intact but the odds of repeating are not very high. Perhaps as good as any which is quite fantastic and as said, they earned the right to defend it.

For all we know Knicks were fine to let Mitch walk. That we don't know how it all plays out is not reason enough to have bought back Mitch.

This nails it.

Denver, Boston, Toronto, Milwaukee, and GSW won and couldn't keep the essentials together long term, or they aged/injuried out. Only GSW had multiple shots at finals so maybe they are the exception, but they did not manage well enough after they were in a gifted position in getting Durant; they drafted very poorly after getting/having the #1, #7, #14 picks in quick subsequent years while they still had Steph and others. I think OKC and NY have managed their rosters and assets very well in contrast.

OKC had the injury bug last year with Jalen Williams and Ajay Mitchell. OKC depth kept them in place this year but they will need to figure out which part of their core needs to change over the next year. Next year, SGA + Jalen + Chet + iHart will eat up 100% of their normal cap and then have $60m above that to the second apron for everyone else. Carson Wallace needs to be resigned ($25m?) and Carsu is at $21m. Their long term cap does seem manageable.

NY solidified their bench this past offseason albeit for a long term solution at backup C. Mo, Kolek, Deuce, Dadiet are their either young or development core guys with 3 of guys promising to very good. Nickel, Kayil TBD. Knicks "core+" guys - KAT, Jalen, OG, Mikal, Hart, GTA, Shamet, Deuce - are all 28-31yo with Deuce at 26yo. KAT, Hart, Deuce are the remaining contract extension guys that should get ironed out this summer, hopefully.

Since it’s impossible to run it back with the same team, it’s more important than ever to keep adding cheap young talent. It’s hard for me to put Deuce and Dadiet into the young core guy category bc it’s extremely likely they get traded now or mid season or not retained next year

While I’m optimistic about Kayil and Nickel, I’m still concerned that we passed up better young talent. Even if the Knicks felt they couldn’t commit to the slightly larger salary they’d face at 24, why not trade down to the low 30’s and draft 2 early 2nd rounders?

We could’ve drafted Meleek Thomas at 31 and Trevon Brazile after trading down to say 32-34.

Those early / mid 2nd rounders all signed 4 year $9.3M contracts with the first year at $1.3M

I fully expect the Knicks to have a 15 man roster at some point. If you compare to last years roster, those 2 replace Sochan and Dadiet. Then I expect Deuce to be traded for a center

I can easily be proven wrong. Maybe the Knicks end up replacing Sochan and dadiet with guys that help us repeat this year and we end up keeping Deuce who has a great year. I just think Thomas and Brazile have way more potential than Kayil and Nickel. And in my scenario nothing prevented us from trading up from 55 and / or getting more 2nds to draft Kayil and Nickel

How about this take: In hindsight, we can kinda sorta guess at what the Knicks priorities were. They traded back, selected players, and accumulated 5 second round picks, $7M in cash, and Kayil/Nickel. No idea why the $7M was such a priority but Fred Katz mentioned it, seems strange to me.

They didn't select in the first round when Cameron Carr, Tarris Reed Jr. and others were sitting right there. I'm not the only one that loved Cameron Carr's fit on the Knicks. They didn't draft those guys probably based off of first round guaranteed salary that would count against the cap as soon as you drafted them, so they are no-go's.

Knicks FO probably already knew that Mitch was a goner. Do you replace him with vet min guy plus a second round draft pick center in the high 30's if you want to repeat championship? Probably not. They have an inkling they need to trade for that player. Someone like Brazile is probably at least 2-3 years away from playing on a playoff level team regularly, if he even makes the league. At backup center, they need a dude who is an offensive rebounding machine and/or defensive presence that fits next to KAT at the 4 or 5 like Mitch.

What type of players are you trading away to get a viable backup center? Knicks are overloaded at PG and SG, so you trade some of those guys and replace them with guys that have similar skillsets *and* fit next to Brunson and the crew. Nickel, Kayil feel similar to those attributes. Eye of the beholder if you feel like Meleek fits better next to Brunson than those guys, especially Kayil in the combo guard role. Kayil has kinda sorta proven himself against grown men in the German league during their playoffs.

You can only have so many young players on your roster that are 2-3 years out. Kolek, Dadiet, Mo are in the group that are ready, near ready, or tradable. Knicks probably prioritized getting back second round picks to either grease wheels on a backup center trade or to rinse and repeat Mo, Kayil, Nickel, Huk draft selections later on cause they got too many young guys.

After all of that, you let Walt Perrin do his job.

In regard to selecting Meleek: He would be behind Shamet, Deuce, Clarkson in the rotation at small guard off the bench. He would have zero chance at any minutes for a couple of years anyway. He played for John Calipari who is close to Leon and co, they would have all the info they need on him and still passed.

Trevon Brazile would be behind Mo for minutes off the bench. Brazile is also a 23yo 220lb PF and matches Mo Diawara role minutes, so there is no need for that particular guy. In hindsight, Knicks knew they had Mo locked up for another 4 years and are going to prioritize him. Mo has passed the test of scrap minutes in the NBA. Could you use another? Sure. But why now when there are other priorities?

Deuce, Kolek, Dadiet are your most tradable players for a backup C. How do Kayil and Nickel replace those skillsets? Pretty close.

Meleek would also be behind this late season, buyout candidate, vet min signing

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Until proven otherwise, I am convinced the Knicks will end up with Donte again next summer. Possibly via Taxpayer MLE. This is especially true if Deuce is traded this year. If he isn’t, it probably lessens the odds, but I still wouldn’t rule it out.

PatCummings wrote:I don’t necessarily disagree with you and I think it’s too early to judge the Knicks. And to your point, the Knicks didn’t like Cameron Carr, Tarris Reed or Chris Cenak enough to pay them the $3.4M salary as pick 24 or guarantee their roster spot. But here’s where I disagree with you. The Knicks could’ve done what I said and drafted 2 guys like Thomas and Brazile as high upside guys. Not everyone plays on a 15 man roster. Having them replace Dadiet and Sochan, and not playing at all, has no impact. Or, if the Knicks wanted to stack the roster with vets we could put Thomas and Brazile on 2 way contracts. That flexibility is the beauty of a 2nd round pick.

And if we knew we weren’t going to keep Mitch, why not trade 24 and 31 as part of a package for a legit replacement? 24, 31 and a player or 2 seems like a good package for a backup defensive center

The Knicks probably could have drafted Thomas and Brazile in the way you suggest. They didn't. For reasons.

You gloss over most everything I put out, including the fact that they got 5 second round draft picks in return in addition to 2 guys that also have similar talent and path's forward as Thomas and Brazile, namely in a develop path over the next years while envisioning their fit on the team and when/where they could contribute. What's better, drafting 2 guys in the second round you have targeted or drafting 2 guys in the second round you have targeted plus 5 extra second round picks to be used in trades or in subsequent years?

You have ignored the fact that your 2 picks are positionally behind other guys who are developing too and who are flat out better; that's near development negligence if you have better or different options. Like, if they know they may need to move Deuce/Kolek, having a backup development combo guard like Kayil may be a better fit than Meleek.

You make the statement that they could just trade away Dadiet without also recognizing that maybe the Knicks have a much higher value with Dadiet than you may or that they want to keep Dadiet's very tradable and just above vet min salary later on. Why later on? Because you need the other team to also want to trade with you and that has obviously not manifested itself yet, otherwise that opportunity would have been crossed and backup C would have been filled. The Knicks did not find a trade they wanted and here we are.

Teams must negotiate with players in the second round and understand what type of contract the players and his agent will accept: 2-way, second round exception, go back to school, go back to Europe, etc. I feel this is done/started before the draft but I could be wrong on that. It is a deliberate process, especially for a team in the Knicks positions of being an NBA championship quality team not needing those second round services immediately and up against the second apron. You got to get those second rounders into a financial position and a development path and situation that is best for team and player long term.

If you ignore one of the better basketball talent evaluators in the league in Walt Perrin and substitute in your expertise, the Knicks could definitely go your route.

The Knicks first priority is securing a backup center. They are up against a second apron. The Knicks could have signed both of their second round picks by now but they have not. There are reasons for that that we are not yet seeing, and I'd guess it has to do with KAT/Hart and the possible ramifications of knowing what to do with Deuce long term. Deuce either stays or he goes out for a backup C and that will shape the rest of the roster decisions. Maybe it's a bigger trade that includes Dadiet (ie. if you traded away Dadiet during the draft just to open a draft slow, you are screwed).

If all you want is to see is sand, sticking your head in sand and la la la'ing in the sand, you will get you the result you are looking for.