blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

When was he asked to be more of a facilitator this year. Please show me the quote.

Phil is not the coach, when is he preaching this stuff?

Stop acting like you have no idea how this works! Phil has been on Melo to pass and stop holding the ball since DAY ONE! EVERYONE that ever coached Melo has been trying to get him to pass more and hold it less so let's not play this game!!!

This is what Phil said when he took the job:

JACKSON ON: Carmelo Anthony, F

"Carmelo Anthony is obviously the team's only certified All-Star. It's also no secret that Melo has to keep the ball moving, but he's committed to doing this. Passing has never been a great strength of his, but in the triangle he'll be able to have check-off reads like a quarterback looking for his first-option receiver, then his second and then his third. There'll be plenty of iso opportunities for Melo, and in the triangle it'll be very difficult for defenses to double-team him. It won't be like last season where he had to take clutch shots with a gang of defenders in his face. Also look for Melo to get a bunch of post-up looks."

via NBA From Phil Jackson's point of view - ESPN.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

When was he asked to be more of a facilitator this year. Please show me the quote.

Phil is not the coach, when is he preaching this stuff?

Stop acting like you have no idea how this works! Phil has been on Melo to pass and stop holding the ball since DAY ONE! EVERYONE that ever coached Melo has been trying to get him to pass more and hold it less so let's not play this game!!!

This is what Phil said when he took the job:

JACKSON ON: Carmelo Anthony, F

"Carmelo Anthony is obviously the team's only certified All-Star. It's also no secret that Melo has to keep the ball moving, but he's committed to doing this. Passing has never been a great strength of his, but in the triangle he'll be able to have check-off reads like a quarterback looking for his first-option receiver, then his second and then his third. There'll be plenty of iso opportunities for Melo, and in the triangle it'll be very difficult for defenses to double-team him. It won't be like last season where he had to take clutch shots with a gang of defenders in his face. Also look for Melo to get a bunch of post-up looks."

via NBA From Phil Jackson's point of view - ESPN.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24763732/phil-jackson-breaks-down-the-knicks-roster

Again, Phil is not the coach. Phil's job is to build the roster so Melo's "check-off reads" don't include Lance Thomas and Ron Baker.

You have no idea what Hornacek told Melo to start this season and they weren't running the Triangle to start the year. Melo's assists went down because Noah is worse than Rolo and Rose isn't the spot up shooter Calderon was. He was probably holding the ball longer because guess what - there's nowhere to go with it! The roster is bereft of guys who can make shots consistently. I think someone else said this - but we hardly have any bench players shooting over 40%!

Baker .364
Sasha .314
Randle .396
Kuz .418
Lance .398
Holiday .427
Jennings .380
KOQ .521 (plays same position as KP and Willy, but clearly our best bench player)

If that were a baseball team, you'd be winning some games. As a basketball team?

And 5 or 6 of them are rookies? How did you expect this team to win 50 games? Blame Melo!

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

When was he asked to be more of a facilitator this year. Please show me the quote.

Phil is not the coach, when is he preaching this stuff?

Stop acting like you have no idea how this works! Phil has been on Melo to pass and stop holding the ball since DAY ONE! EVERYONE that ever coached Melo has been trying to get him to pass more and hold it less so let's not play this game!!!

This is what Phil said when he took the job:

JACKSON ON: Carmelo Anthony, F

"Carmelo Anthony is obviously the team's only certified All-Star. It's also no secret that Melo has to keep the ball moving, but he's committed to doing this. Passing has never been a great strength of his, but in the triangle he'll be able to have check-off reads like a quarterback looking for his first-option receiver, then his second and then his third. There'll be plenty of iso opportunities for Melo, and in the triangle it'll be very difficult for defenses to double-team him. It won't be like last season where he had to take clutch shots with a gang of defenders in his face. Also look for Melo to get a bunch of post-up looks."

via NBA From Phil Jackson's point of view - ESPN.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24763732/phil-jackson-breaks-down-the-knicks-roster

Again, Phil is not the coach. Phil's job is to build the roster so Melo's "check-off reads" don't include Lance Thomas and Ron Baker.

You have no idea what Hornacek told Melo to start this season and they weren't running the Triangle to start the year. Melo's assists went down because Noah is worse than Rolo and Rose isn't the spot up shooter Calderon was. He was probably holding the ball longer because guess what - there's nowhere to go with it! The roster is bereft of guys who can make shots consistently. I think someone else said this - but we hardly have any bench players shooting over 40%!

Baker .364
Sasha .314
Randle .396
Kuz .418
Lance .398
Holiday .427
Jennings .380
KOQ .521 (plays same position as KP and Willy, but clearly our best bench player)

If that were a baseball team, you'd be winning some games. As a basketball team?

And 5 or 6 of them are rookies? How did you expect this team to win 50 games? Blame Melo!

Nice try but your really not going to get away with this kind of attempt. Melo STILL gets the ball in the same spots as always. He STILL had ample opportunities to pass to KP, CLee or Rose who are capable of making shots.

I think without a doubt the team struggles but that's not a reason to stop passing the ball to the open man. There's no excuse for Melo's lack of passing and poor D and the same went for Rose.

Wasn't one of Hornacek's early complaints that CLee didn't shoot the ball enough when people passed to him and he was open? When was the last time Rose even attempted an open three off a pass from Melo? KP has had his ups and downs on shot selection all year, to go with his 7% assist percentage and terrible defense.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that this team sucks, can you? I know it's easy to blame on it Melo in a way you can't prove, but it's weak and makes it hard to respect your basketball insights. And again, you can't seem to admit that even when Melo moved the ball last year and played, according to you, "his best season," this crap roster still only won 33 games. So the Knicks would've won four more games if Melo moved the ball? Well, thank god he didn't. At least we get a good pick this way and you get your scapegoat.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

When was he asked to be more of a facilitator this year. Please show me the quote.

Phil is not the coach, when is he preaching this stuff?

Stop acting like you have no idea how this works! Phil has been on Melo to pass and stop holding the ball since DAY ONE! EVERYONE that ever coached Melo has been trying to get him to pass more and hold it less so let's not play this game!!!

This is what Phil said when he took the job:

JACKSON ON: Carmelo Anthony, F

"Carmelo Anthony is obviously the team's only certified All-Star. It's also no secret that Melo has to keep the ball moving, but he's committed to doing this. Passing has never been a great strength of his, but in the triangle he'll be able to have check-off reads like a quarterback looking for his first-option receiver, then his second and then his third. There'll be plenty of iso opportunities for Melo, and in the triangle it'll be very difficult for defenses to double-team him. It won't be like last season where he had to take clutch shots with a gang of defenders in his face. Also look for Melo to get a bunch of post-up looks."

via NBA From Phil Jackson's point of view - ESPN.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24763732/phil-jackson-breaks-down-the-knicks-roster

Again, Phil is not the coach. Phil's job is to build the roster so Melo's "check-off reads" don't include Lance Thomas and Ron Baker.

You have no idea what Hornacek told Melo to start this season and they weren't running the Triangle to start the year. Melo's assists went down because Noah is worse than Rolo and Rose isn't the spot up shooter Calderon was. He was probably holding the ball longer because guess what - there's nowhere to go with it! The roster is bereft of guys who can make shots consistently. I think someone else said this - but we hardly have any bench players shooting over 40%!

Baker .364
Sasha .314
Randle .396
Kuz .418
Lance .398
Holiday .427
Jennings .380
KOQ .521 (plays same position as KP and Willy, but clearly our best bench player)

If that were a baseball team, you'd be winning some games. As a basketball team?

And 5 or 6 of them are rookies? How did you expect this team to win 50 games? Blame Melo!

Good pick up cryz. Going forward I hope they put more study into Fg and eFG when acquiring players. It's hard to win with abunxh of inefficient players . If they were inefficient in college they will be ineffecient in the nba

nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.

People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.

The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.

So basically our last GMs screwed it up but traded picks away and Phil is completely different because he screwed it up and kept his draft picks. Sounds like we could have left the position vacant and we wouldn't have done bad trades and we would have kept our picks. Phil absolutely backed into a rebuild. Just because you aren't trading your picks away every chance you get doesn't mean you're rebuilding. Raise your standards just a little bit. This post is really reaching.

Derek Fisher was part of Phil's long term vision, eh? What is Hornacek being allowed to develop? He can't go to the bathroom without Kurt Rambis helping him.

nykshaknbake wrote:

nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.

People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.

The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.

So basically our last GMs screwed it up but traded picks away and Phil is completely different because he screwed it up and kept his draft picks. Sounds like we could have left the position vacant and we wouldn't have done bad trades and we would have kept our picks. Phil absolutely backed into a rebuild. Just because you aren't trading your picks away every chance you get doesn't mean you're rebuilding. Raise your standards just a little bit. This post is really reaching.

Derek Fisher was part of Phil's long term vision, eh? What is Hornacek being allowed to develop? He can't go to the bathroom without Kurt Rambis helping him.

You can choose not to recognize that Phil has been trying to build up the future of the team the entire time he's been here but it's true. He started off with one pick but he's drafted way more than that. Some have worked out and others haven't but you can't say he hasn't been looking to find new young talent.
We have more young prospects now and have 3 picks in the upcoming draft. This rebuild has been started under the radar, but it has already been started.

Jeff has been learning the Triangle and just like Phil he'll eventually master it and be just fine. People forget that Phil had Tex running the offense for years. Phil wasn't a Triangle master when he took the Bulls job. He had to learn it just like Jeff has. Phil and Jeff seem to be in sync. So what's you're problem with this arrangement???

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.

People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.

The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.

So basically our last GMs screwed it up but traded picks away and Phil is completely different because he screwed it up and kept his draft picks. Sounds like we could have left the position vacant and we wouldn't have done bad trades and we would have kept our picks. Phil absolutely backed into a rebuild. Just because you aren't trading your picks away every chance you get doesn't mean you're rebuilding. Raise your standards just a little bit. This post is really reaching.

Derek Fisher was part of Phil's long term vision, eh? What is Hornacek being allowed to develop? He can't go to the bathroom without Kurt Rambis helping him.

You can choose not to recognize that Phil has been trying to build up the future of the team the entire time he's been here but it's true. He started off with one pick but he's drafted way more than that. Some have worked out and others haven't but you can't say he hasn't been looking to find new young talent.
We have more young prospects now and have 3 picks in the upcoming draft. This rebuild has been started under the radar, but it has already been started.

Jeff has been learning the Triangle and just like Phil he'll eventually master it and be just fine. People forget that Phil had Tex running the offense for years. Phil wasn't a Triangle master when he took the Bulls job. He had to learn it just like Jeff has. Phil and Jeff seem to be in sync. So what's you're problem with this arrangement???

Any argument that Phil was trying to build for the future blew out the window when he traded for Derrick Rose and signed Joakim Noah.

He got kinda lucky that they sucked and was able to back into a high draft pick this year.

Do you really think that was the intention? If so, why do you hate Rose so much?

They've had $30M in cap space each of the past two seasons. I actually loved the DWill signing, because it was a good young promising player... you know... building... but all his other free agent targets and trade acquisitions have been 28, 30, 32, old dudes. That's not building up the future. That's playing for now.

How many times do we have to mention that Phil was doing BOTH? He has Melo so he has tried to have some vets to play with Melo but he also had 5 rookies on the roster. Clearly he didn't sell out on Win Now! Rose and BJ were tryouts. The only bad deal in terms of older vets is Noah, tho it's mainly due to health concerns. CLee is a good vet. So really you only have one guy to point to when it's all said and done.

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.

People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.

The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.

So basically our last GMs screwed it up but traded picks away and Phil is completely different because he screwed it up and kept his draft picks. Sounds like we could have left the position vacant and we wouldn't have done bad trades and we would have kept our picks. Phil absolutely backed into a rebuild. Just because you aren't trading your picks away every chance you get doesn't mean you're rebuilding. Raise your standards just a little bit. This post is really reaching.

Derek Fisher was part of Phil's long term vision, eh? What is Hornacek being allowed to develop? He can't go to the bathroom without Kurt Rambis helping him.

You can choose not to recognize that Phil has been trying to build up the future of the team the entire time he's been here but it's true. He started off with one pick but he's drafted way more than that. Some have worked out and others haven't but you can't say he hasn't been looking to find new young talent.
We have more young prospects now and have 3 picks in the upcoming draft. This rebuild has been started under the radar, but it has already been started.

Jeff has been learning the Triangle and just like Phil he'll eventually master it and be just fine. People forget that Phil had Tex running the offense for years. Phil wasn't a Triangle master when he took the Bulls job. He had to learn it just like Jeff has. Phil and Jeff seem to be in sync. So what's you're problem with this arrangement???

Any argument that Phil was trying to build for the future blew out the window when he traded for Derrick Rose and signed Joakim Noah.

He got kinda lucky that they sucked and was able to back into a high draft pick this year.

Do you really think that was the intention? If so, why do you hate Rose so much?

They've had $30M in cap space each of the past two seasons. I actually loved the DWill signing, because it was a good young promising player... you know... building... but all his other free agent targets and trade acquisitions have been 28, 30, 32, old dudes. That's not building up the future. That's playing for now.

How many times do we have to mention that Phil was doing BOTH? He has Melo so he has tried to have some vets to play with Melo but he also had 5 rookies on the roster. Clearly he didn't sell out on Win Now! Rose and BJ were tryouts. The only bad deal in terms of older vets is Noah, tho it's mainly due to health concerns. CLee is a good vet. So really you only have one guy to point to when it's all said and done.

Disagree, if Phil had 5 rookies is because he mismanaged the salary cap in past their prime role players, with no upside what so ever. Had he done his homework right, he could have use that money in younger role players. But he wasted all.
If Phil was rebuilding he would have traded Chandler, Shump, JR And Rolo for future assets, NOT FOR CALDERON OR ROSE. THAT'S NOT REBUILDING.

What future assets were going to be given to us for those guys. Please elaborate.

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.

His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.

neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.

Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!

Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.

Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....

I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.

I TOTALLY disagree with the notion that Melo didn't change how he played last year. Last year Melo had a two month stretch where he averaged 5 assists!!! He was defending better than this year. The difference is so stark that it's not even close.

Even tho Melo was asked to be more of a facilitator he did the complete opposite this year! Dude is holding the ball more and passing LESS!!! That makes no sense given the entire time Phil has preached ball movement and unselfishness.

Now if you add Rose's selfish and lazy D that is a recipe for failure. There's no reason that this team should've failed this badly if Melo and Rose played unselfish Team Ball and gave max effort on D. What team is going to succeed if the 2 top players don't buy in???

Yes, I forgot about last year that quick. We sucked so long, I'm starting to combine years. I was talking about the year we won 54 games. Yes, Melo was passing more and tried to be the triangle facilitator last year (or whatever year he broke his personal assist record). But after a while, I wasn't a fan of that, as a max player on a team that needs someone to score. If we had other scorers to pass it to, then we didn't need a max guy to do the same thing Charlie Ward did. He gets paid to do what he does best, which is score. Can't teach a new dog old tricks, and expect him to be a top passer in the league. Anything outside of getting buckets is mediocre at best for Melo.

Holding the ball....Getting into an offensive rhythm, is what scorers do. He needs to dribble the ball in order to be an efficient scorer. Then when he's warm, he can be a deadly catch and shoot player. That's Melo now....Phil thought he was getting the old Melo. And he gets older and more frustrated watching his teammates brick every shot, Melo will dominate the ball.

It was a bad experiment that had loads of potential, but the marriage between todays Phil and todays Melo hasn't worked. But we both agree, adding Rose who needs to dominate the ball just like Melo, just added fuel to the fire. On top of that, both are liabilities on defense, when surrounded by other mediocre defenders. Just like Melo, Rose needs to be surrounded by veterans to compliments his short falls. But that's all in the past....

Moving forward is what will phil do with Melo? And will Melo finally remove his NTC and accept a draft day trade. This 1 on 1 discussion with Phil will be the most important meeting of Melo's career in NY. I wish I was in that meeting room.