Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

Depends what your definition of great is. Is great MJ, LeNron, Magic, Kobe? If so, Carmelo is not great. But Carmelo is easily in the class of guys like Durant. My CURRENT top 5 is:

LeBron
Kobe
Durant
Melo
Westbrook

not sure westbrook should be in that class, but i guarantee you if lebron or Durant was a knick you guys would be fuming if someone were to suggest that carmelo is in their class... and he just isn't....

No one is in LeBron's class. But Durant? Give me an argument why Durant is in a higher class than Melo. They are almost identical players statistically. KD is a better ball handler while Melo is a better post player. They are both great rebounders at their position. I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged. If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

they are not identical at all.. durant is a better scorer, a more efficient score, a better facilitator, or ball mover, better rebounder.. the guy is just a better all around player...

I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged

and what does that mean? what about the other 99% of the time when he isn't engaged?

If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

All things are not equal... if you go with KD, you go with him because he is flat out better.. and deep down I think you feel the same way....

A better argument would be between carmelo and Deron williams...

I really don't think KD is better than Melo. I think perhaps he has more of an unselfish gene at an earlier age. I think they are very similar players. They are both excellent rebounders. KD is not a great facilitator. He makes smart passes but in terms of facilitating they are equals. I think KD gets some easy assists off of passes to Westbrook. With Melo passing out of the post like he does, a made shot usually comes off of the 2nd or 3rd pass after the initial one from Melo. To say Melo is not playing D 99% of the time is to not admit he's turned a corner this year. Deron isn't in the class of either of these players. Utah Deron, yes. But not NJ/BK Deron.

Having someone take 18 shots a game and make only 42% should not be helping your assists. It's probably hurting them. Durant is better than Melo in every major area (scoring efficiency, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks).

How does he ever win?

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

I don't think you can judge based on random games like that. In your opinion does Denver or the Knicks make the playoffs if he misses a full season with the same rosters?

It depends on who he's replaced with. If they got an average starting SF like Josh Smith or Tayshaun Prince, then they'd still make the playoffs. They had other MVP-candidate players (Billups, Camby) and many underrated but very good players. That's why they played well without Melo. If he's being replaced by some NBDL player, then probably not, though.

Y would he need to be replaced with anyone you stated they play 550. ball or better without him. Melo been in the playoffs every yr of his career. He didn't have Billups every yr of his career and Camby had seasons which he missed a ton of games or a whole season.

Yes, and he was obviously replaced by other players. They didn't play 4 on 5!

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

I don't think you can judge based on random games like that. In your opinion does Denver or the Knicks make the playoffs if he misses a full season with the same rosters?

It depends on who he's replaced with. If they got an average starting SF like Josh Smith or Tayshaun Prince, then they'd still make the playoffs. They had other MVP-candidate players (Billups, Camby) and many underrated but very good players. That's why they played well without Melo. If he's being replaced by some NBDL player, then probably not, though.

Y would he need to be replaced with anyone you stated they play 550. ball or better without him. Melo been in the playoffs every yr of his career. He didn't have Billups every yr of his career and Camby had seasons which he missed a ton of games or a whole season.

Yes, and he was obviously replaced by other players. They didn't play 4 on 5!

They didn't have Josh Smith or Prince when they went 550. without him.

Championship caliber players ALWAYS need championship caliber supporting casts.

What's the issue here?

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:huh? Have you looked at the standings? It's early but Chicago's not even on pace to make the playoffs.

They are 24 and 17 without him last two seasons.

And around .750 with him

Doesn't change the fact the team plays around .600 ball without him, does it???

Sometimes good players actually play on good teams, 93-94 Bulls say HELLO!!!!!!!

They go from elite to upper .500s without him. If you have a very good team but lose a star, then you go from top 4 in the league to 10 to 15. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Tomato,Potato, Bulls play around 600 ball without Rose only proves they are a strong team.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:huh? Have you looked at the standings? It's early but Chicago's not even on pace to make the playoffs.

They are 24 and 17 without him last two seasons.

And around .750 with him

Doesn't change the fact the team plays around .600 ball without him, does it???

Sometimes good players actually play on good teams, 93-94 Bulls say HELLO!!!!!!!

They go from elite to upper .500s without him. If you have a very good team but lose a star, then you go from top 4 in the league to 10 to 15. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Tomato,Potato, Bulls play around 600 ball without Rose only proves they are a strong team.

Solid team without Rose and elite with him. We agree.

You said they're solid, but then you also said they're on pace to miss the playoffs. Which one is it?

They're 8-8. Therefore they're on pace to go 41-41, easily enough to get into the playoffs in the East.

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You put Durant on all of those Denver teams that Carmelo was on, and you're really not going to get much of a difference in terms of winning. Replace Carmelo with Kobe on those same teams as well, and again you would probably see similar results.

Championship caliber players ALWAYS need championship caliber supporting casts.

What's the issue here?

the scary thing is,I think you honestly believe that.... kobe on those denver teams, makes them better.. kobe was just that much better, and I would go as far as to say durant on those teams makes them better as well...

the ratio of usage to assist rate for bryant for his career is a surprisingly low 1.33:1. this means he does not play in a vacuum. maybe this is due to the triangle he has played in which as we all know he broke away from a lot of the time, in which case he is rightfully called a ballhog and playing in a vacuum. 5 assists per game is pretty good too. but very mediocre in terms of efficiency.

durant from rookie to this year 2.34, 2.09, 2.90, 2.31, 1.79, and 1.39 this year so he is trending down in a favorable direction. also his TS% is elite so he is efficient as can be.

melo? not a pretty picture: although interestingly for his career his ratio is 1.96:1, this season thus far it is 3:1 which is the very definition of playing in a vacuum, especially when you also consider the two following stats... (1) efficiency this season is up but it will regress to the mean which is around 54%TS, and (2) the assists per game are 3.1 for his career which is positively anemic and this season it is an awful 2.1 per game.

it is virtually impossible to imagine the nuggets underachieving as they did with melo if he were replaced with either bryant or durant!

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You put Durant on all of those Denver teams that Carmelo was on, and you're really not going to get much of a difference in terms of winning. Replace Carmelo with Kobe on those same teams as well, and again you would probably see similar results.

Championship caliber players ALWAYS need championship caliber supporting casts.

What's the issue here?

the scary thing is,I think you honestly believe that.... kobe on those denver teams, makes them better.. kobe was just that much better, and I would go as far as to say durant on those teams makes them better as well...

the ratio of usage to assist rate for bryant for his career is a surprisingly low 1.33:1. this means he does not play in a vacuum. maybe this is due to the triangle he has played in which as we all know he broke away from a lot of the time, in which case he is rightfully called a ballhog and playing in a vacuum. 5 assists per game is pretty good too. but very mediocre in terms of efficiency.

durant from rookie to this year 2.34, 2.09, 2.90, 2.31, 1.79, and 1.39 this year so he is trending down in a favorable direction. also his TS% is elite so he is efficient as can be.

melo? not a pretty picture: although interestingly for his career his ratio is 1.96:1, this season thus far it is 3:1 which is the very definition of playing in a vacuum, especially when you also consider the two following stats... (1) efficiency this season is up but it will regress to the mean which is around 54%TS, and (2) the assists per game are 3.1 for his career which is positively anemic and this season it is an awful 2.1 per game.

it is virtually impossible to imagine the nuggets underachieving as they did with melo if he were replaced with either bryant or durant!

I agree; no way Kobe or Durant would have the lowest playoff winning % of active players if they had Melo's teammates.

Yeah - easy to say while pulling up your pants.

Him on a ****ty team would have had ****ty success but I am sure that you know that.

He almost cost brilliant teams a chance to win.

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You put Durant on all of those Denver teams that Carmelo was on, and you're really not going to get much of a difference in terms of winning. Replace Carmelo with Kobe on those same teams as well, and again you would probably see similar results.

Championship caliber players ALWAYS need championship caliber supporting casts.

What's the issue here?

the scary thing is,I think you honestly believe that.... kobe on those denver teams, makes them better.. kobe was just that much better, and I would go as far as to say durant on those teams makes them better as well...

If you're arguing that Kobe and Durant would advance a little further in the postseason then I'll give you that.

But anything more just would not happen with that weak Denver supporting cast.

mrKnickShot wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:You put Durant on all of those Denver teams that Carmelo was on, and you're really not going to get much of a difference in terms of winning. Replace Carmelo with Kobe on those same teams as well, and again you would probably see similar results.

Championship caliber players ALWAYS need championship caliber supporting casts.

What's the issue here?

the scary thing is,I think you honestly believe that.... kobe on those denver teams, makes them better.. kobe was just that much better, and I would go as far as to say durant on those teams makes them better as well...

If you're arguing that Kobe and Durant would advance a little further in the postseason then I'll give you that.

But anything more just would not happen with that weak Denver supporting cast.

Perfectly stated.

However, when dealing with asperger people, you will get nowhere.

Haha "asperger."

It suits TKF quite well.

Anyways, want to know how Kobe performs in the post season with supporting casts as weak as Anthony's with Denver?

Let's go back to 2006 and 2007.

Back to back first round exits.

Why is it so hard to understand that no one does it alone?