holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for his antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORITISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

There's nothing wrong with honesty here. I've never been a fan of the way Melo and JR play and it takes a lot of extra effort to get myself to root for them. If JR keeps anything close to this up, he will completely win me over. I still wish Melo would take better shots. I think he'd be much better taking 16 high quality shots instead of the 21 shots a game he does take. But I can acknowledge that he does have a net positive impact on the team.

I so disagree with you bro...I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game...If he takes 16 shots does it mean they will be high quality...I'm more concern with him taking shots within the flow of what the team is doing...He is our number one target, who is to say what he will need to take on a given night, given the game situation...It's not something that can be quantified...People rode Felton for taking 23 shots a few games ago...A few were forced yes but most was within the flow of the offense...Melo was being doubled and some one had to step up..We won..Yet complaints...Flow of the game dictates how many shots your primary offensive player takes or a secondary guy...How do you come up with 16 good, 21 bad for a guy like Melo...16 good, 21 bad for Kobe...16 good, 21 bad for LeBron...How do u know??

actually you can put a number on the number of shots he should take. you look at how many shots he takes per game and count the number of bad shots he takes. then you take that emperical evidence and see how it dovetails with the statistics or defies them. in melo's case it dovetails. he takes 5-6 bad shots per game and with a career average of around 19-20 shots per game he should take fewer shots and/or be far more selective in the shots he takes. it shows up all over the place with him.

and you are dead wrong about taking bad shots within the flow of the offense-- there's no such thing. a bad shot is going to be outside the offensive flow by definition.

you also allude to results as being the sine qua non for a team. again this is false, for eventually HOW you win becomes more and more important as the competition grows stiffer. and this goes back to HOW melo and smith and felton play.

I'm not really sure where u are getting me saying it's ok to take bad shots as long as it's within the flow of the offense...Where did you see that???...What I did say it's ok to take as many shots as he likes as long as it's within the flow of the offense..How do u put a limit on our best scorer??..U say he shoots 5-6 bad shots per game...Do u think cutting his shots down to 16 will all together illuminate his bad shots, no...They come at different intervals of the game...So let's say Melo is only taking 15 shots per game now to "illuminate" those so called "bad shots"...we estimated that he takes 1 bad shot in every five shots, correct??...You best scorer is passing up 4 good shots and 1 bad shot...Who do u want taking those shots???Does that make sense to u???

"I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game"

sorry charlie but people don't want tuna with good taste but tuna that tastes good! LOL

look i don't know how else to understand your point other than what i wrote. maybe you can rephrase what you really meant. to me your point of view is putting the cart before the horse, that is, it's okay to take bad and forced shots as long as they're within the flow of the offense. what i am saying is offensive flow is based on the taking of good and unforced shots. bad shots ruin whatever offensive flow there would otherwise be. and lets not forget that in the playoffs against a team like miami a bad shot, especially a three pointer with a long rebound, is the same as a turnover. if we are going to beat miami in the playoffs we will need to take only good shots, especially on the long shots, or they will be off to the races and score many points off both turnovers and bad shots.

and your math about cutting back on 5-6 shots is simply fallacious. yes he takes 4 good shots for every 1 bad shot statistically but that does not translate to passing up those good shots-- it simply means pruning the bad shots out of his game. that way he shoots 8-15 or 9-16 instead of 10-22. yes he'll end up scoring 4-5 points less but the net positive for the team is more offensive cohesion or flow, including keeping everyone else involved. he is a career 46% shooter but if he is to be considered an elite scorer as you think he already is then he should be shooting closer to 50% and frankly over 50%. and his TS% should be close to 60% which would put him among those you consider his peers as scorers like durant and lbj... or dirk when healthy.

the only other way he can "earn" those bad shots is by improving in other areas of his game, most notably his assists per game, steals per game, offensive rebounds, and of course defense and hustle plays. to is credit he has done better in the two latter categories which buys him some non-statsheet cred and tends to contribute to esprit du corps.

Well those two sentences about bad shots and flow of the offense are far enough apart that you should not try to link them but somehow u did...The guy is probably in the top two scorers in the league and u want to tell him take only 16 shot per game...And in your mind he needs to "earn" his bad shots like he is some rookie...Am I wrong but did you miss the 18-6 run last year to get into the playoffs...Is that the guy you feel shots should be limited...Is that the guy you feel needs to earn his shots??..Good thing the closest you guys can come to basketball decisions is this message board...

yes regular-season runs are great but my perspective is being informed by playoff rivals. look what lebron did with melo last year. look at what popovich had jackson do in the spurs game-- same thing. now if every team decides to hound melo like those two did then he has got to be able to resist the urge to take bad shots.

celtics game 1 5-18 misses 13 shots
2 14-30 misses 16 shots
3 4-16 misses 12 shots
4 10-24 misses 14 shots

heat game 1 3-15 misses 12 shots
2 12-26 misses 14 shots
3 7-23 misses 16 shots
4 15-29 misses 14 shots
5 15-31 misses 16 shots

spurs game 3-12 misses 9 shots

see the pattern here? he either takes much fewer shots and converts few of them or he becomes an inefficient volume shooter and loses. as i recall the one game they won was at home and in overtime.

yes everyone has given the excuse ad nauseam that he HAD TO take all those extra shots because his teammates were so bad. my point is that he did not help his team's cause any by taking so many more shots and that there was zero offensive flow due to his holding the ball.

isn't it time we look at his overshooting as a root source of a mostly losing playoff career? and not excuse it?

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for his antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORITISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

There's nothing wrong with honesty here. I've never been a fan of the way Melo and JR play and it takes a lot of extra effort to get myself to root for them. If JR keeps anything close to this up, he will completely win me over. I still wish Melo would take better shots. I think he'd be much better taking 16 high quality shots instead of the 21 shots a game he does take. But I can acknowledge that he does have a net positive impact on the team.

I so disagree with you bro...I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game...If he takes 16 shots does it mean they will be high quality...I'm more concern with him taking shots within the flow of what the team is doing...He is our number one target, who is to say what he will need to take on a given night, given the game situation...It's not something that can be quantified...People rode Felton for taking 23 shots a few games ago...A few were forced yes but most was within the flow of the offense...Melo was being doubled and some one had to step up..We won..Yet complaints...Flow of the game dictates how many shots your primary offensive player takes or a secondary guy...How do you come up with 16 good, 21 bad for a guy like Melo...16 good, 21 bad for Kobe...16 good, 21 bad for LeBron...How do u know??

actually you can put a number on the number of shots he should take. you look at how many shots he takes per game and count the number of bad shots he takes. then you take that emperical evidence and see how it dovetails with the statistics or defies them. in melo's case it dovetails. he takes 5-6 bad shots per game and with a career average of around 19-20 shots per game he should take fewer shots and/or be far more selective in the shots he takes. it shows up all over the place with him.

and you are dead wrong about taking bad shots within the flow of the offense-- there's no such thing. a bad shot is going to be outside the offensive flow by definition.

you also allude to results as being the sine qua non for a team. again this is false, for eventually HOW you win becomes more and more important as the competition grows stiffer. and this goes back to HOW melo and smith and felton play.

I'm not really sure where u are getting me saying it's ok to take bad shots as long as it's within the flow of the offense...Where did you see that???...What I did say it's ok to take as many shots as he likes as long as it's within the flow of the offense..How do u put a limit on our best scorer??..U say he shoots 5-6 bad shots per game...Do u think cutting his shots down to 16 will all together illuminate his bad shots, no...They come at different intervals of the game...So let's say Melo is only taking 15 shots per game now to "illuminate" those so called "bad shots"...we estimated that he takes 1 bad shot in every five shots, correct??...You best scorer is passing up 4 good shots and 1 bad shot...Who do u want taking those shots???Does that make sense to u???

"I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game"

sorry charlie but people don't want tuna with good taste but tuna that tastes good! LOL

look i don't know how else to understand your point other than what i wrote. maybe you can rephrase what you really meant. to me your point of view is putting the cart before the horse, that is, it's okay to take bad and forced shots as long as they're within the flow of the offense. what i am saying is offensive flow is based on the taking of good and unforced shots. bad shots ruin whatever offensive flow there would otherwise be. and lets not forget that in the playoffs against a team like miami a bad shot, especially a three pointer with a long rebound, is the same as a turnover. if we are going to beat miami in the playoffs we will need to take only good shots, especially on the long shots, or they will be off to the races and score many points off both turnovers and bad shots.

and your math about cutting back on 5-6 shots is simply fallacious. yes he takes 4 good shots for every 1 bad shot statistically but that does not translate to passing up those good shots-- it simply means pruning the bad shots out of his game. that way he shoots 8-15 or 9-16 instead of 10-22. yes he'll end up scoring 4-5 points less but the net positive for the team is more offensive cohesion or flow, including keeping everyone else involved. he is a career 46% shooter but if he is to be considered an elite scorer as you think he already is then he should be shooting closer to 50% and frankly over 50%. and his TS% should be close to 60% which would put him among those you consider his peers as scorers like durant and lbj... or dirk when healthy.

the only other way he can "earn" those bad shots is by improving in other areas of his game, most notably his assists per game, steals per game, offensive rebounds, and of course defense and hustle plays. to is credit he has done better in the two latter categories which buys him some non-statsheet cred and tends to contribute to esprit du corps.

Well those two sentences about bad shots and flow of the offense are far enough apart that you should not try to link them but somehow u did...The guy is probably in the top two scorers in the league and u want to tell him take only 16 shot per game...And in your mind he needs to "earn" his bad shots like he is some rookie...Am I wrong but did you miss the 18-6 run last year to get into the playoffs...Is that the guy you feel shots should be limited...Is that the guy you feel needs to earn his shots??..Good thing the closest you guys can come to basketball decisions is this message board...

yes regular-season runs are great but my perspective is being informed by playoff rivals. look what lebron did with melo last year. look at what popovich had jackson do in the spurs game-- same thing. now if every team decides to hound melo like those two did then he has got to be able to resist the urge to take bad shots.

celtics game 1 5-18 misses 13 shots
2 14-30 misses 16 shots
3 4-16 misses 12 shots
4 10-24 misses 14 shots

heat game 1 3-15 misses 12 shots
2 12-26 misses 14 shots
3 7-23 misses 16 shots
4 15-29 misses 14 shots
5 15-31 misses 16 shots

spurs game 3-12 misses 9 shots

see the pattern here? he either takes much fewer shots and converts few of them or he becomes an inefficient volume shooter and loses. as i recall the one game they won was at home and in overtime.

yes everyone has given the excuse ad nauseam that he HAD TO take all those extra shots because his teammates were so bad. my point is that he did not help his team's cause any by taking so many more shots and that there was zero offensive flow due to his holding the ball.

isn't it time we look at his overshooting as a root source of a mostly losing playoff career? and not excuse it?

Maybe you are right...If he shot less we might have beaten Miami last year and Boston the year before....Heck If he shot less he might have stopped San Antonio and the Lakers when they were making their runs for multiple Championship rings...

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:
Well clearly Nupe doesn't!

I see the team is 7-1. I see Melo missing a lot of layups right now which brings his fg% down. I don't see Melo taking many bad shots. I see Melo making extra passes and getting hockey assists as well. I see Melo playing good defense also. It seems the only issue is people with pre-determined opinions of Melo trying to make that opinion fit no matter what the circumstance.

I see people crying we should have gotten Deron who sucked most of last year and is not shooting much better than Melo this year.
I see people saying we should have gotten Joe Johnson who is shooting below 40%.
I have seen people mention Josh Smith who is not the type of player to build a team around due to lack of a sold offensive skill set.

Really, I just see a pack of whiners.

Nupe, many Melo fans are not blind to his deficiencies and where he needs to improve.

1. Defense - better
2. Rebounds - same / good
3. attacking the rim - solid
4. passing out of the double teams - good but could be much quicker and better
5. shot selection - better but still takes some really dumb shots

Overall - solid

Very few players in the league are this hard to contain

To be clear, I have never really liked Melo. He is not athletic and struggles to finish around rim at times often rebounding his initial miss. All that aside, he has played beyond well this year with a vastly improved shot selection, passing and defense. I don't know what more people want. He will shoot in the vicinity of 45% this year which is about the same or better than what most of the players people think we should have gotten will shoot.

45 pct is fine and it is right where kobe is for his career.

There is no reason why he can't be closer to 50 if he just played a bit smarter.

not sure I understand the constant kobe refrences...ok, so may I ask, what is the refrence to kobe's shooting percentage supposed to support here?

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:
Well clearly Nupe doesn't!

I see the team is 7-1. I see Melo missing a lot of layups right now which brings his fg% down. I don't see Melo taking many bad shots. I see Melo making extra passes and getting hockey assists as well. I see Melo playing good defense also. It seems the only issue is people with pre-determined opinions of Melo trying to make that opinion fit no matter what the circumstance.

I see people crying we should have gotten Deron who sucked most of last year and is not shooting much better than Melo this year.
I see people saying we should have gotten Joe Johnson who is shooting below 40%.
I have seen people mention Josh Smith who is not the type of player to build a team around due to lack of a sold offensive skill set.

Really, I just see a pack of whiners.

Nupe, many Melo fans are not blind to his deficiencies and where he needs to improve.

1. Defense - better
2. Rebounds - same / good
3. attacking the rim - solid
4. passing out of the double teams - good but could be much quicker and better
5. shot selection - better but still takes some really dumb shots

Overall - solid

Very few players in the league are this hard to contain

To be clear, I have never really liked Melo. He is not athletic and struggles to finish around rim at times often rebounding his initial miss. All that aside, he has played beyond well this year with a vastly improved shot selection, passing and defense. I don't know what more people want. He will shoot in the vicinity of 45% this year which is about the same or better than what most of the players people think we should have gotten will shoot.

45 pct is fine and it is right where kobe is for his career.

There is no reason why he can't be closer to 50 if he just played a bit smarter.

not sure I understand the constant kobe refrences...ok, so may I ask, what is the refrence to kobe's shooting percentage supposed to support here?

No.

You cannot ask.

NUPE wrote:It is so funny to see people whine about Melo's fg% which is 44% right now.

Meanwhile:

The great Gallo is shooting 34% this year.
The great Lin is shooting below 35% this year.
The great Wilson Chandler is shooting 31% this year.

Melo is literally shooting just about 10% better than all the ex-Knick's and the "Gift".

NUPE wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

NUPE wrote:It is so funny to see people whine about Melo's fg% which is 44% right now.

Meanwhile:

The great Gallo is shooting 34% this year.
The great Lin is shooting below 35% this year.
The great Wilson Chandler is shooting 31% this year.

Melo is literally shooting just about 10% better than all the ex-Knick's and the "Gift".

please im begging you stop with the knicks vs former knicks crap. Lets focus on the good season we are having

Why should I?!?! We all know certain posters hate for Melo revolves around their lust for ex-knicks. Melo is shooting 44% and people are acting like he is shooting 35%. Eventually Melo will make more of his shots around the rim and his fg% will improve. And then people will find something else to complain about.

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

NUPE wrote:It is so funny to see people whine about Melo's fg% which is 44% right now.

Meanwhile:

The great Gallo is shooting 34% this year.
The great Lin is shooting below 35% this year.
The great Wilson Chandler is shooting 31% this year.

Melo is literally shooting just about 10% better than all the ex-Knick's and the "Gift".

please im begging you stop with the knicks vs former knicks crap. Lets focus on the good season we are having

Why should I?!?! We all know certain posters hate for Melo revolves around their lust for ex-knicks. Melo is shooting 44% and people are acting like he is shooting 35%. Eventually Melo will make more of his shots around the rim and his fg% will improve. And then people will find something else to complain about.

nah, this is what you do.. you bring up those guys every time you can..... melo is shooting 44% and that is not good enough.. I mean is that what you want from your so called franchise player? why such low standards, why not aim for 49% which deng is shooting, or 53% which lebron is shooting, he is getting paid more than both guys, and he is supposed to be the face of this franchise... why keep bringing up players whom you feel are inferior to him as the standard to which defend melo.. it is ridiculous on every level especially with the way you feel about former knicks...

If Kobe can shoot 45 pct for his career and be a (co) franchise player, than 45 percent works for me.

Wow are you annoying.

tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

NUPE wrote:It is so funny to see people whine about Melo's fg% which is 44% right now.

Meanwhile:

The great Gallo is shooting 34% this year.
The great Lin is shooting below 35% this year.
The great Wilson Chandler is shooting 31% this year.

Melo is literally shooting just about 10% better than all the ex-Knick's and the "Gift".

please im begging you stop with the knicks vs former knicks crap. Lets focus on the good season we are having

Why should I?!?! We all know certain posters hate for Melo revolves around their lust for ex-knicks. Melo is shooting 44% and people are acting like he is shooting 35%. Eventually Melo will make more of his shots around the rim and his fg% will improve. And then people will find something else to complain about.

nah, this is what you do.. you bring up those guys every time you can..... melo is shooting 44% and that is not good enough.. I mean is that what you want from your so called franchise player? why such low standards, why not aim for 49% which deng is shooting, or 53% which lebron is shooting, he is getting paid more than both guys, and he is supposed to be the face of this franchise... why keep bringing up players whom you feel are inferior to him as the standard to which defend melo.. it is ridiculous on every level especially with the way you feel about former knicks...

If Kobe can shoot 45 pct for his career and be a (co) franchise player, than 45 percent works for me.

Wow are you annoying.

is that the argument here? I am annoying because I am challenging flawed arguments and there are holes in your argument so it upsets you.. I understand...

But hey this is not about franchise players.... there are good ones and bad ones, if your argument is that carmelo is a franchise player.. then fine. but shooting the same% isn't the reason why he is one... that is for sure...and he certainly is not the caliber franchise player kobe is.. hence the difference in jewelry that both have.. one has 5 rings.. the other.... oh well....

but hey, don't want to annoy you any further.. carry on..

You annoy me because you are just annoying. But, I am sure you know that and have been told this many times.

You answered your own question. It's there ... look closely.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for his antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORITISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

There's nothing wrong with honesty here. I've never been a fan of the way Melo and JR play and it takes a lot of extra effort to get myself to root for them. If JR keeps anything close to this up, he will completely win me over. I still wish Melo would take better shots. I think he'd be much better taking 16 high quality shots instead of the 21 shots a game he does take. But I can acknowledge that he does have a net positive impact on the team.

I so disagree with you bro...I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game...If he takes 16 shots does it mean they will be high quality...I'm more concern with him taking shots within the flow of what the team is doing...He is our number one target, who is to say what he will need to take on a given night, given the game situation...It's not something that can be quantified...People rode Felton for taking 23 shots a few games ago...A few were forced yes but most was within the flow of the offense...Melo was being doubled and some one had to step up..We won..Yet complaints...Flow of the game dictates how many shots your primary offensive player takes or a secondary guy...How do you come up with 16 good, 21 bad for a guy like Melo...16 good, 21 bad for Kobe...16 good, 21 bad for LeBron...How do u know??

actually you can put a number on the number of shots he should take. you look at how many shots he takes per game and count the number of bad shots he takes. then you take that emperical evidence and see how it dovetails with the statistics or defies them. in melo's case it dovetails. he takes 5-6 bad shots per game and with a career average of around 19-20 shots per game he should take fewer shots and/or be far more selective in the shots he takes. it shows up all over the place with him.

and you are dead wrong about taking bad shots within the flow of the offense-- there's no such thing. a bad shot is going to be outside the offensive flow by definition.

you also allude to results as being the sine qua non for a team. again this is false, for eventually HOW you win becomes more and more important as the competition grows stiffer. and this goes back to HOW melo and smith and felton play.

I'm not really sure where u are getting me saying it's ok to take bad shots as long as it's within the flow of the offense...Where did you see that???...What I did say it's ok to take as many shots as he likes as long as it's within the flow of the offense..How do u put a limit on our best scorer??..U say he shoots 5-6 bad shots per game...Do u think cutting his shots down to 16 will all together illuminate his bad shots, no...They come at different intervals of the game...So let's say Melo is only taking 15 shots per game now to "illuminate" those so called "bad shots"...we estimated that he takes 1 bad shot in every five shots, correct??...You best scorer is passing up 4 good shots and 1 bad shot...Who do u want taking those shots???Does that make sense to u???

"I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game"

sorry charlie but people don't want tuna with good taste but tuna that tastes good! LOL

look i don't know how else to understand your point other than what i wrote. maybe you can rephrase what you really meant. to me your point of view is putting the cart before the horse, that is, it's okay to take bad and forced shots as long as they're within the flow of the offense. what i am saying is offensive flow is based on the taking of good and unforced shots. bad shots ruin whatever offensive flow there would otherwise be. and lets not forget that in the playoffs against a team like miami a bad shot, especially a three pointer with a long rebound, is the same as a turnover. if we are going to beat miami in the playoffs we will need to take only good shots, especially on the long shots, or they will be off to the races and score many points off both turnovers and bad shots.

and your math about cutting back on 5-6 shots is simply fallacious. yes he takes 4 good shots for every 1 bad shot statistically but that does not translate to passing up those good shots-- it simply means pruning the bad shots out of his game. that way he shoots 8-15 or 9-16 instead of 10-22. yes he'll end up scoring 4-5 points less but the net positive for the team is more offensive cohesion or flow, including keeping everyone else involved. he is a career 46% shooter but if he is to be considered an elite scorer as you think he already is then he should be shooting closer to 50% and frankly over 50%. and his TS% should be close to 60% which would put him among those you consider his peers as scorers like durant and lbj... or dirk when healthy.

the only other way he can "earn" those bad shots is by improving in other areas of his game, most notably his assists per game, steals per game, offensive rebounds, and of course defense and hustle plays. to is credit he has done better in the two latter categories which buys him some non-statsheet cred and tends to contribute to esprit du corps.

Well those two sentences about bad shots and flow of the offense are far enough apart that you should not try to link them but somehow u did...The guy is probably in the top two scorers in the league and u want to tell him take only 16 shot per game...And in your mind he needs to "earn" his bad shots like he is some rookie...Am I wrong but did you miss the 18-6 run last year to get into the playoffs...Is that the guy you feel shots should be limited...Is that the guy you feel needs to earn his shots??..Good thing the closest you guys can come to basketball decisions is this message board...

yes regular-season runs are great but my perspective is being informed by playoff rivals. look what lebron did with melo last year. look at what popovich had jackson do in the spurs game-- same thing. now if every team decides to hound melo like those two did then he has got to be able to resist the urge to take bad shots.

celtics game 1 5-18 misses 13 shots
2 14-30 misses 16 shots
3 4-16 misses 12 shots
4 10-24 misses 14 shots

heat game 1 3-15 misses 12 shots
2 12-26 misses 14 shots
3 7-23 misses 16 shots
4 15-29 misses 14 shots
5 15-31 misses 16 shots

spurs game 3-12 misses 9 shots

see the pattern here? he either takes much fewer shots and converts few of them or he becomes an inefficient volume shooter and loses. as i recall the one game they won was at home and in overtime.

yes everyone has given the excuse ad nauseam that he HAD TO take all those extra shots because his teammates were so bad. my point is that he did not help his team's cause any by taking so many more shots and that there was zero offensive flow due to his holding the ball.

isn't it time we look at his overshooting as a root source of a mostly losing playoff career? and not excuse it?

Dude averaged 10.3rebs, 4.8ast, 8.5ft attmpts. While taking bad shots is a valid criticism you completely ignore any and everything else which turns a valid criticism into a joke.

LIKE

Ray Allen 22pts per game at 574% from the field and Rajon Rondo 19-7-12 absolutely destroyed our backcourt of Tony Douglas, Landry Fields, Anthony Carter, Bill Walker, Rodger Mason Jr, after Billups went down.

KG holding Amare to 38% shooting 14pts while out producing him.

Carmelo competed in his matchup vs Pierce and nobody else did. But it was Carmelo's bad shot attempts which is why Ray Allen out produced our whole backcourt rotations by himself? That Rondo toyed with Douglas and Carter like they were rec league players? Its Melo's bad shot attempts which is why Amare couldn't win his matchup with a past his prime KG because he didn't have a PG to do all the work for him, and he doesn't rebound or play enough defense to make any other type of impact?

Amare
14.5pts 7.8rebs 1.8ast 3.0tos .8blks vs Boston
15.3pts 6.5rebs 0.8ast 3.0tos .3blks vs Heat

Not a peep on his playoff performances, thats because this Melo playoff stuff is agenda drivin.