CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:I'll debunk it for you... But first.

Any comment about the correlation between Knicks winning and AR/Moz NOT getting minutes?

Any comment about force feeding minutes to a guy like Curry who don't earn and deserve them? Is this the point where we force feed undeserved minutes to AR?

Any comment on Williams getting minutes?

Any comment on balancing wins versus risking giving AR minutes?

I am predicting crickets.

I think it is great that Williams is getting minutes. I never thought he would make the team and I was sure D'Antoni would never play him because I think D'Antoni is quick to lose patience with young players and guys that might need mentoring or have character issues.

I think the Knicks do need to force feed Randolph ten minutes a game like D'Antoni gave Moz. I don't think Moz is that good and I think his upside is overrated. I have watched Randolph against NBA competition many times and I know what he can do. He is coming back from an injury. He didn't eat or lounge himself out of shape. But he is also the youngest guy on the team and might need some mentoring and building up.

I don't think there is any risk of playing Randolph the ten minutes that Moz got. I think there is only the potential for more success or status quo with a little more rest for Turiaf and Amare.

Now it is your turn to debunk what I said about Douglas, and D'Antoni during his rookie year.

You didn't answer all my questions.

Any comment about the correlation between Knicks winning and AR/Moz NOT getting minutes? Any comment on balancing wins versus risking giving AR minutes?

Moz is not getting minutes right now... whose minutes do you cut? Amare? Turiaf? Chandler? Gallo? You would like to risk wins and playoffs?

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Your friend was right. D'Antoni needs to develop those scrubs that were on the floor especially if one is 21 years old, was a lottery pick, and the GM wanted to draft him over the guy the coach convinced him to take.

So mostly you want to give AR the Eddie Curry treatment? Play him just to force minutes? What ever happened to players earning minutes?

Has MDA worked Williams into the rotation? He is a fav of the GM too, was a lottery pick and is young.

MDA has also turned to Fields, a ROOKIE. Starting him.

Second year Toney Douglas is getting a lot of minutes.

Is MDA not developing players or is he developing players?

I know you have read what my opinion is on this many times because you are quick to comment on it. I think Randolph should be given the chance Mosgov was given. Ten minutes a game to get some rythm and flow. Its nothing outrageous but there is a track record with D'Antoni of not developing guys. Douglas did not get any run until Walsh traveled with the team last year to evaluate the players and coaching staff. I am excited about Fields and the fact that D'Antoni has been open minded about playing him. I am sure some of what D'Antoni has done as well as experience has helped Fields. But Fields came out of the draft ready to play so I am hesitant to give too much credit to D'Antoni. He had the smarts to recognize that his 23 year old rookie was an nba ready player and he put him in the starting line up. That is fantastic. He has done other guys wrong and bringing Randolph off the bench last is just another way to tell the youngest guy on the team that you have no faith in him. At least he didn't scream at him tonight but that has happened in the past.

this has been debunked about a million times. HOLY CRAP.

Knicks start season 3-8, Moz, AR played minutes. Knicks go out West and win 3 straight games and back to back again CHA - 5 straight - while AR gets pulled and Moz gets minutes diminished. Knicks lose to Hawks.

Knicks win 8 more in a row, all without BOTH Moz (for the most part) and AR.

There seems to be a trend of Moz and AR getting less minutes and the Knicks winning.

Crush, the Knicks NEED to make the playoffs this year. Are you willing to trade Wins for minutes for AR?

I wouldn't and clearly the coaching staff won't either.

OH, AR's biggest stretch of minutes this year is 7 games in a row. How many loses? 6 in a row.

It has never been debunked and you can look back at Douglas's game log last year. Consecutive dnp's for Toney increased as the season went on until Walsh traveled with the team. He had 26 dnps coaches decision before Walsh traveled with the team on the March Texas road trip. It was never debunked but I think sometimes people that use facts and numbers to back their arguments do decide to have the second to last word and stop responding. I can post the dramatic increase in his numbers and how his minutes average went from 12 to 30+ a game and actually post the exact numbers but I have done that at least 20 times. I am done. Please post numbers regarding Douglas to debunk what I have posted and not rhetoric.

I'll debunk it for you... But first.

Any comment about the correlation between Knicks winning and AR/Moz NOT getting minutes?

Any comment about force feeding minutes to a guy like Curry who don't earn and deserve them? Is this the point where we force feed undeserved minutes to AR?

Any comment on Williams getting minutes?

Any comment on balancing wins versus risking giving AR minutes?

I am predicting crickets.

I think it is great that Williams is getting minutes. I never thought he would make the team and I was sure D'Antoni would never play him because I think D'Antoni is quick to lose patience with young players and guys that might need mentoring or have character issues.

I think the Knicks do need to force feed Randolph ten minutes a game like D'Antoni gave Moz. I don't think Moz is that good and I think his upside is overrated. I have watched Randolph against NBA competition many times and I know what he can do. He is coming back from an injury. He didn't eat or lounge himself out of shape. But he is also the youngest guy on the team and might need some mentoring and building up.

I don't think there is any risk of playing Randolph the ten minutes that Moz got. I think there is only the potential for more success or status quo with a little more rest for Turiaf and Amare.

Now it is your turn to debunk what I said about Douglas, and D'Antoni during his rookie year.

that is why rotations are so important, if you are really playing team ball. when you gas our top five out, you are running the risk of injury, players playing hurt, and tired basketball like what we saw in cleveland.

CrushAlot wrote:Its nothing outrageous but there is a track record with D'Antoni of not developing guys

Now you are saying something a bit differently:

CrushAlot wrote:I am not going to be smug and say I predict crickets but my response to you was based on Douglas's game log. I am very interested in what numbers/facts you are going to post to show that D'Antoni had any interest in developing Douglas before Walsh traveled with the team on the March Texas road trip to evaluate the coaching staff and the players.

Developing young players can be done in different ways and the end result can be seen in different ways. Right off the bat, here are a ton of young players that MDA has coached that have played (I am stealing list):

BlueSeats wrote:amare, joe johnson, barbosa, diaw, lee, etc, developed pretty well under d'antoni. (this in addition to the veterans who's careers peaked under him, ie, nash, marion, felton, etc.)

With the Knicks, you can add these guys: TD, Gallo, Chandler, Fields.

Those young guys all developed, they got noticeably better over the time span (sometimes that's on player, sometimes on coaching staff, sometimes both - no one can tell). So mostly, end of story end of argument.

DEVELOPING does not necessarily mean playing a player every minute of every game, or even consistent minutes every game, or even every game. Developing just means getting a player better. last 2 years Gallo and Chandler were offered that opportunity but TD was not. So what? Doesn't mean the coaching staff stopped talking to Toney. Doesn't mean they stopped running him through drills. All I know is that TD SUCKED ASS during his first SL - everyone saw that - and he still was shaky this past SL, BUT he has gotten better.

Perhaps TD was not ready for playing time. Perhaps there was a rotation problem. Perhaps he still hadn't figured out how to gel with Lee. Coaches decision, for better or worse.

What you are complaining about is that TD did not get playing time every game, same with AR. In a perfect world TD and AR would get 20 minutes each every game out, both this year and last, but circumstances prove out differently.

BlueSeats wrote:

cheers wrote:ar/timo dont make ny lose. toney/turiaf dont make ny win. the job of all four (if minutes are properly managed by mda) to give our top five players amar'e/felton/wilson/gallo/fields the best shot to win the game for new york.

that is why rotations are so important, if you are really playing team ball. when you gas our top five out, you are running the risk of injury, players playing hurt, and tired basketball like what we saw in the cleveland.

and to think scott brookes won coty and he plays durant and green the same amount of minutes as felton.

it was no big deal to you when felton was playing 4th in minutes in the nba. well felton is now #1 in minutes in the nba.

thank god we have td, if anything should befall felton. /s

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:Crush, this was your original premise:

CrushAlot wrote:Its nothing outrageous but there is a track record with D'Antoni of not developing guys

Now you are saying something a bit differently:

CrushAlot wrote:I am not going to be smug and say I predict crickets but my response to you was based on Douglas's game log. I am very interested in what numbers/facts you are going to post to show that D'Antoni had any interest in developing Douglas before Walsh traveled with the team on the March Texas road trip to evaluate the coaching staff and the players.

Developing young players can be done in different ways and the end result can be seen in different ways. Right off the bat, here are a ton of young players that MDA has coached that have played (I am stealing list):

BlueSeats wrote:amare, joe johnson, barbosa, diaw, lee, etc, developed pretty well under d'antoni. (this in addition to the veterans who's careers peaked under him, ie, nash, marion, felton, etc.)

With the Knicks, you can add these guys: TD, Gallo, Chandler, Fields.

Those young guys all developed, they got noticeably better over the time span (sometimes that's on player, sometimes on coaching staff, sometimes both - no one can tell). So mostly, end of story end of argument.

DEVELOPING does not necessarily mean playing a player every minute of every game, or even consistent minutes every game, or even every game. Developing just means getting a player better. last 2 years Gallo and Chandler were offered that opportunity but TD was not. So what? Doesn't mean the coaching staff stopped talking to Toney. Doesn't mean they stopped running him through drills. All I know is that TD SUCKED ASS during his first SL - everyone saw that - and he still was shaky this past SL, BUT he has gotten better.

Perhaps TD was not ready for playing time. Perhaps there was a rotation problem. Perhaps he still hadn't figured out how to gel with Lee. Coaches decision, for better or worse.

What you are complaining about is that TD did not get playing time every game, same with AR. In a perfect world TD and AR would get 20 minutes each every game out, both this year and last, but circumstances prove out differently.

Honestly on a playoff team if Randolph is struggling then he may not deserve playing time on a playoff team or may need to be worked in. On a 29 win team where the guard play sucks and all of the guards except the first round pick are going to be gone the following year there is no excuse for not playing douglas. I think the numbers speak for themselves. I also think when you have a talent like Randolph sometimems you might need to say as a coach, What does this guy need from me. I don't think the answer to that can impact the ultimate goal of the team but I do think it should be considered. I know that is not happening this year and several years from now we will look at the randolph trade like the dice or curry trade.

Knicks are a playoff team and need every win to assure playoffs... why are you complaining AR is not getting playing time? I think you just answered your own question.

Man, I would LOVE for AR and Moz to get playing time. But I also don't want them to disrupt the TEAM DEVELOPMENT that is going on.

My hopes is that Donnie does not just throw away AR in a trade. Maybe after all-star break AR gets his big chance and we all are for the better.

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:Crush, this was your original premise:

CrushAlot wrote:Its nothing outrageous but there is a track record with D'Antoni of not developing guys

Now you are saying something a bit differently:

CrushAlot wrote:I am not going to be smug and say I predict crickets but my response to you was based on Douglas's game log. I am very interested in what numbers/facts you are going to post to show that D'Antoni had any interest in developing Douglas before Walsh traveled with the team on the March Texas road trip to evaluate the coaching staff and the players.

Developing young players can be done in different ways and the end result can be seen in different ways. Right off the bat, here are a ton of young players that MDA has coached that have played (I am stealing list):

BlueSeats wrote:amare, joe johnson, barbosa, diaw, lee, etc, developed pretty well under d'antoni. (this in addition to the veterans who's careers peaked under him, ie, nash, marion, felton, etc.)

With the Knicks, you can add these guys: TD, Gallo, Chandler, Fields.

Those young guys all developed, they got noticeably better over the time span (sometimes that's on player, sometimes on coaching staff, sometimes both - no one can tell). So mostly, end of story end of argument.

DEVELOPING does not necessarily mean playing a player every minute of every game, or even consistent minutes every game, or even every game. Developing just means getting a player better. last 2 years Gallo and Chandler were offered that opportunity but TD was not. So what? Doesn't mean the coaching staff stopped talking to Toney. Doesn't mean they stopped running him through drills. All I know is that TD SUCKED ASS during his first SL - everyone saw that - and he still was shaky this past SL, BUT he has gotten better.

Perhaps TD was not ready for playing time. Perhaps there was a rotation problem. Perhaps he still hadn't figured out how to gel with Lee. Coaches decision, for better or worse.

What you are complaining about is that TD did not get playing time every game, same with AR. In a perfect world TD and AR would get 20 minutes each every game out, both this year and last, but circumstances prove out differently.

Honestly on a playoff team if Randolph is struggling then he may not deserve playing time on a playoff team or may need to be worked in. On a 29 win team where the guard play sucks and all of the guards except the first round pick are going to be gone the following year there is no excuse for not playing douglas. I think the numbers speak for themselves. I also think when you have a talent like Randolph sometimems you might need to say as a coach, What does this guy need from me. I don't think the answer to that can impact the ultimate goal of the team but I do think it should be considered. I know that is not happening this year and several years from now we will look at the randolph trade like the dice or curry trade.

Knicks are a playoff team and need every win to assure playoffs... why are you complaining AR is not getting playing time? I think you just answered your own question.

Man, I would LOVE for AR and Moz to get playing time. But I also don't want them to disrupt the TEAM DEVELOPMENT that is going on.

My hopes is that Donnie does not just throw away AR in a trade. Maybe after all-star break AR gets his big chance and we all are for the better.

BlueSeats wrote:

cheers wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

cheers wrote:ar/timo dont make ny lose. toney/turiaf dont make ny win. the job of all four (if minutes are properly managed by mda) to give our top five players amar'e/felton/wilson/gallo/fields the best shot to win the game for new york.

that is why rotations are so important, if you are really playing team ball. when you gas our top five out, you are running the risk of injury, players playing hurt, and tired basketball like what we saw in the cleveland gave.

and to think scott brookes won coty and he plays durant and green the same amount of minutes as felton.

it was no big deal to you when felton was playing 4th in minutes in the nba. well felton is now #1 in minutes in the nba.

thank god we have td, if anything should befall felton. /s

I don't know where you get your stats from. I'm using NBA.com:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Minutes.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

Players exact minutes will obviously rise and dip throughout the season, but we see there are at least 12 or so players in the 38-40 mins a game region. Should fans of all those players be as upset about it as you?

There was a time it was a source of honor and pride to be high on that list.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/mike_minute_hand_KVYZrf2gfKOTIfCthl6ikI?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

Felton starting the week as the NBA leader in minutes

there was a time when players contracts were not $100 million. times change. allan houston taught me a hard lesson; pay attention to the health and well being of your players or it will bite you on the arse for years.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

cheers wrote:

martin wrote:

cheers wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:i don't know, i think young players like amare, joe johnson, barbosa, diaw, lee, etc, developed pretty well under d'antoni. (this in addition to the veterans who's careers peaked under him, ie, nash, marion, felton, etc.) is it possible people construe a short rotation as a lack of player development? if a deep rotation is your definition of player development, then no, he doesn't develop players, in spite of his obvious success with so many.

mike brought to phx a very player friendly run and gun system. that at the time was relatively new and hard to counter. now its old, teams been know how to counter it. you just cant live off of past glory, ask larry brown. what is mda doing lately

winning in NY more than anyone expected.

But WTF does that have to do with anything being discussed.

in RecordPredictor i put in 54 game win for this season. i would have put 54W even if coach spo was coaching the knicks.

You're worse than Blobman.

That's a feat since he IS blobman.

I think AR is a very talented player, but he hasnt earned his spot in the rotation yet and the Knicks are a playoff team