Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

It's the Bobcats looking at the various Mocks and determining who may fall them along with projecting their own Mock.

Joe I've never been opposed to getting another pick. Have you not seen some of my trade offers(although some didn't like them). I had us getting Jermaine, 11th, and 19th. I had us getting Wally, 16th, and 19th.

I noticed another Mareese Speights Realgm has him going in the Top 10 and on other mocks he isn't even listed in the Top 30 and most have him outside of 20.

So you're saying CDR, Greene, Rush, McGee, Lawson, Arthur won't be a solid contributors?

Some guys are mysteries TB, I don't deny that. Speights has some MAJOR character issues.

And no I am not saying any of those guys won't be contributers, but I am saying that there is a reason they are not talked about the same way guys like Rose, Beasley, Gordon, whoever in the top 10, are. They are missing size, some talent, motivation, character flaws...something doesn't make them as appealing as other players. That is the whole point of this.

I won't chalk it up as excuses from you but regardless if it's because teams are drafting for need, players being mysteries, character issues(Beasley has them, O.J. is involved in controversy), physical measurement issues, lack of workouts, lack of scouting, but you know what it doesn't change a player's talent. There are going to be some who slip all because of these reasons and others not listed. There are going to be very good players on the board at 16, that will rival players picked before, outside of the Top 5.

BOOK IT!!!!



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:16 PM]

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:24 PM]

I don't get this. You would rather be stuck with whatever guy with issues that falls to us as opposed to getting a guy with less/smaller issues that may be a better talent overall anyway. That sounds like horrid business.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean Joe. I can't get anything past you you sly clever guy!

Posted by TMS:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by joec32033:

And moving Zach right now while paying a premium(the #6) when we can move him next year, even if we do better by attaching say the 13 or 14 pick(or no pick at all because he will have a year less on his contract) while still gaining the same cap flexibility in the same time frame is the more prudent move how?

joe, how do u know we'll be able to move Zach next year for a shorter term contract? what teams will be able to absorb his contract in this manner & not throw an equally bad contract back our way? i don't see many options out there, seems very optimistic for anyone to assume another trade like this will come our way in a year's time... more than likely if u ask me he'll be on our books until his contract expires or at the trade deadline the year of, at which time we'll have already missed out on the big shopping spree that's about to kick off in 2 years.

Bro, for all the talk about how Zach is untradeable, we have 3 teams (that we know of) that were interested in him in the past year. One time he was as good as gone before Isiah blew it up(Denver), another time he was gone the for some reason the owner got moralistic about having good guys on the roster(Bucks), and now we have a team that may actually want him because their coach is his ex-coach(Phi).

Is there a chance he is untradeable next year, sure. He could also obliterate his Achilles and be done. I am also NOT against trading him this year just not this year if this is the type of deal you're looking at. We do have the luxury of time.

u have to consider what the terms of those proposed deals were tho... like i said, what teams will be able to absorb Zach's contract in this manner & not give back a heinous contract of their own? i'm guessing any deal w/MIL would have involved scrub names like Bobby Simmons & Dan Gadzuric, both of whom have longterm deals in their own right... how does that help our cap situation? the deal w/DEN likely involved either KMart or Nene, & while i've been pining for a Zach for KMart swap that also doesn't address our cap situation & neither would Nene have since he's got a big money deal too... it's not that easy to come up w/names of teams that can give back an expiring or a reasonable contract & still take Zach off our hands bro... believe me, i've tried many times to think of ways we could.

I can dig everything you just said. But we still have at least 1.5 years-trade deadline season after next -before we have to consider desperation moves.

I would be willing to comprimise and put in something like Balkman and Randolph for Evans and the 16. Hell I am not hung up on Evans. give me any guy with 2 years left and the 16 and it's a deal. There are plenty of guys with 2 year mega deals that expire before Zach that we can move him for imo.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TMS:

who are they tho? i keep hearing names like Ben Wallace & Wally Z, but IMO that's got a very low chance of happening.

Who cares about Z bo. The team improves with good players--there will be an end result to Zbo.
Think about this. If we went to Zbo and said Phiily wants you--this is what we'll do--they'll give you an MLE with an opt after 3 so you can start 4 for them. You will get PT there and you like MO Cheeks. We will buy you out - the 15mm spread over the same 3 years. Not only do we save the 15mm get rid of the player but also save lux tax of 5mm and we gave up nothing. We get cap relief in 2010 of 5mm---what is wrong with that?

Posted by TMS:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TMS:

who are they tho? i keep hearing names like Ben Wallace & Wally Z, but IMO that's got a very low chance of happening.

Who cares about Z bo. The team improves with good players--there will be an end result to Zbo.
Think about this. If we went to Zbo and said Phiily wants you--this is what we'll do--they'll give you an MLE with an opt after 3 so you can start 4 for them. You will get PT there and you like MO Cheeks. We will buy you out - the 15mm spread over the same 3 years. Not only do we save the 15mm get rid of the player but also save lux tax of 5mm and we gave up nothing. We get cap relief in 2010 of 5mm---what is wrong with that?

5 mil in cap space does nothing for us... we mine as well hold onto Zach in that case & try & see if he'll succeed here in NY... buying him out is the absolute worst possible option in any scenario, i'm sorry.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by TMS:

who are they tho? i keep hearing names like Ben Wallace & Wally Z, but IMO that's got a very low chance of happening.

why? Cleveland needs to get younger and needs to get scoring help for Lebron. if they figure Lebron can keep Zach under control, Zach replaces a lot of what they lost in Boozer.

it makes complete sense.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Kevin Love as high 3 on these mocks as low as 13 on others 10 spot difference

CDR as low as 28 on these mocks and as high as 17 11 spot difference

DeAndre Jordan as low as 17 on these mocks as high as 8 9 spot difference

you were killing the knicks for not tanking earlier so we could move up to 4 or 5 and now all of a sudden it's not a big deal to drop 10 slots in the draft? whatever. I'm sure you'll kill the knicks if they do this trade and philly drafts a good player, too.

look, if philly is willing to give up half of their cap space to take on randolph, some team without cap space will take him on without needing a lotto pick. like, cleveland for instance.

Because I feel there are two franchise players in this draft Beasley and Mayo. I wished we tanked properly and maybe we'd have either a Top 2 or 3 pick. There are a couple of probables and the rest is like playing Blackjack. Since I know we have pick 6 I'm not opposed to trading down if it means aligning ourselves to possibly land Lebron. If Mayo is on the board I'd pass on the trade but wouldn't think it was a bad offer from Philly. If Gordon impresses with his workout he's the only other player I may think long and hard about not passing on. The rest sorry it's about as even as it gets 6-16.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

It's the Bobcats looking at the various Mocks and determining who may fall them along with projecting their own Mock.

Joe I've never been opposed to getting another pick. Have you not seen some of my trade offers(although some didn't like them). I had us getting Jermaine, 11th, and 19th. I had us getting Wally, 16th, and 19th.

I noticed another Mareese Speights Realgm has him going in the Top 10 and on other mocks he isn't even listed in the Top 30 and most have him outside of 20.

So you're saying CDR, Greene, Rush, McGee, Lawson, Arthur won't be a solid contributors?

Some guys are mysteries TB, I don't deny that. Speights has some MAJOR character issues.

And no I am not saying any of those guys won't be contributers, but I am saying that there is a reason they are not talked about the same way guys like Rose, Beasley, Gordon, whoever in the top 10, are. They are missing size, some talent, motivation, character flaws...something doesn't make them as appealing as other players. That is the whole point of this.

I won't chalk it up as excuses from you but regardless if it's because teams are drafting for need, players being mysteries, character issues(Beasley has them, O.J. is involved in controversy), physical measurement issues, lack of workouts, lack of scouting, but you know what it doesn't change a player's talent. There are going to be some who slip all because of these reasons and others not listed. There are going to be very good players on the board at 16, that will rival players picked before, outside of the Top 5.

BOOK IT!!!!



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:16 PM]

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:24 PM]

I don't get this. You would rather be stuck with whatever guy with issues that falls to us as opposed to getting a guy with less/smaller issues that may be a better talent overall anyway. That sounds like horrid business.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean Joe. I can't get anything past you you sly clever guy!

Can't blame you for lack of trying.

Oh there's I have doubt I held serve. Can't wait to revisit this discussion.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

It's the Bobcats looking at the various Mocks and determining who may fall them along with projecting their own Mock.

Joe I've never been opposed to getting another pick. Have you not seen some of my trade offers(although some didn't like them). I had us getting Jermaine, 11th, and 19th. I had us getting Wally, 16th, and 19th.

I noticed another Mareese Speights Realgm has him going in the Top 10 and on other mocks he isn't even listed in the Top 30 and most have him outside of 20.

So you're saying CDR, Greene, Rush, McGee, Lawson, Arthur won't be a solid contributors?

Some guys are mysteries TB, I don't deny that. Speights has some MAJOR character issues.

And no I am not saying any of those guys won't be contributers, but I am saying that there is a reason they are not talked about the same way guys like Rose, Beasley, Gordon, whoever in the top 10, are. They are missing size, some talent, motivation, character flaws...something doesn't make them as appealing as other players. That is the whole point of this.

I won't chalk it up as excuses from you but regardless if it's because teams are drafting for need, players being mysteries, character issues(Beasley has them, O.J. is involved in controversy), physical measurement issues, lack of workouts, lack of scouting, but you know what it doesn't change a player's talent. There are going to be some who slip all because of these reasons and others not listed. There are going to be very good players on the board at 16, that will rival players picked before, outside of the Top 5.

BOOK IT!!!!



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:16 PM]

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-10-2008 1:24 PM]

I don't get this. You would rather be stuck with whatever guy with issues that falls to us as opposed to getting a guy with less/smaller issues that may be a better talent overall anyway. That sounds like horrid business.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean Joe. I can't get anything past you you sly clever guy!

Can't blame you for lack of trying.

Oh there's I have doubt I held serve. Can't wait to revisit this discussion.

Neither can I. Bookmark it we'll revisit in 5 years when I can provide the info you were asking for. :-)~

You could have done it now like I said. If you can clearly show and state Beasley and Rose are better than anyone else without playing an actual NBA game you should be able to do it for picks 6-16. But because I'm nice I'll let you bid your time for 5yrs.

Posted by TMS:

u guys seriously have to stop quoting the entire string of a conversation when u hit the reply button.