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O.T. War in the middle East...
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Killa4luv
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7/23/2006  2:10 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

I draw the distiction between parties that try to avoid civilian casualties and parties that intentionally attach civilians... this was all covered...
I don't make those distinctions. I look at the numbers. Civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan are well over 150,000. Looking at those numbers I think trying to determine who is trying to kill civilians and who isn't is all semantic. The US is killing way more civilians than the terrorists. Thats 'an inconvinient truth'. Its a fact.


when faced with a world in peril, I for one trust the conscience of the US before that of Iran, Libia, Russia, China, France, Spain, Italy, China etc...
the US has the unique stature of an exporter of freedom and democracy.. (the US is not a panecea, but it is a democracy comprised of mostly well meaning people and leaders who really do want to do the right thing... that does not mean that they do not often have to choose between the lesser of two evils... but I for one cannot put the US in the same moral compass as countries like Russia, China, France etc.
exporter of peace & freedom? Yeah like all that peace and freedom they have exported to Iraq & Afghanistan. Or all the peace and democracy the exported to Vietnam.

I'm sure the citizens there love all of those democratic bombs heaped upon them. The only people who get any peace and freedom are the multinationals the US military makes the world safe for. If you believe anything else you are delusional. Got that Trevor?

Actually, I'd enjoy it so much if you showed me some places where the US exported some peace and freedom.
AUTOADVERT
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  2:18 PM
Posted by PresIke:

And his article from the other day:

July 18, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Feeding the Enemy
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

You are guilty of your very own accusations... your articles are not written by moderates... Your posts are not truly moderate... you my friend are not a moderate on this issue... that is perfectly okay... but at least be honest about it..

If the US followed Kristoff there would be no real war on terror, the US would just back down to Bin Ladenites, throw Israel to the dogs.. to appease the terrorists...
it is a valid theory, but certainly a wreckless one... is the US to stand on the sideline as corrupt regimes supply funding and WMDs to religious extreemists who are trying to bringing Mohammed's 2nd coming by bring the world into a clash of civilizations???

If 9/11 would have happened under Gore, do you really honestly believe that their would not be a war on terror... is that really your "moderate" viewpoint???

What is Hillary Clinton's viewpoint on the war on terror... she will be the next democratic candidate... does she believe that the US was wrong for not capitulating to terrorists like Spain???

Capitulation to terrorist only encourages the terrorist to use terror as a successful method of furthering their agendas... and giving into a terrorist is a MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE ACT!
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  2:25 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

exporter of peace & freedom? Yeah like all that peace and freedom they have exported to Iraq & Afghanistan. Or all the peace and democracy the exported to Vietnam.

Once again you call a curveball a ball before it has a chance to reach the plate...

Does not Germany enjoy peace and freedom, does not Japan enjoy peace and freedom...
civilizations do not change overnight... they take years to evolve...

I do not hate the USA... and I am greatful that they help encourage freedom and liberty wherever possible...
PresIke
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7/23/2006  4:47 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by PresIke:

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-01/20wise.cfm

January 20, 2003

Fraud Fit For A King: Israel, Zionism, And The Misuse Of Mlk

By Tim Wise

Reread my post. I already mentioned a hoax, but the quote I posted is varified!

These are not the writtings of a moderate voice, I do not think you are aiding your cause...

The quote's meaning cannot be verified since it was taken out of context. Here is what you wrote:

Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard;

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.”

Although other attributed quotes are hoaxes, this is 100% ligit.....

Here's what Mr. Wise wrote:

So yes, King was quick to admonish one person who expressed hostility to Zionists as people. But he did not claim that opposition to Zionism was inherently anti-Semitic. And for those who criticize Zionism today and who like me are Jewish, to believe that we mean to attack Jews, as Jews, when we speak out against Israel and Zionism is absurd.

Anyway, what is a "moderate" anyway? I believe that there are plenty that would hardly consider your point of view to be "moderate" either. I posted his articles merely as a counter to the huge number of "one sided" articles you have been posting all day, every day since this thread started.

If to be "moderate" is to maintain some sort of balanced point of view, I would certainly find good reason to suspect you are not in this camp, based upon your posts within the thread. I can say with all honesty that I do not advocate or support the actions of Hezbollah and any other group that engages in the killing of others for a "cause." Is force sometimes necessary? I would say that there are some somewhat justifiable cases of military action throughout history, such as the Allied attacks in WW II, but I am not convinced, based upon the heaps of evidence that history and current events can show us, that in the current case of Israel/Palestine that force is going to work.

[Edited by - PresIke on 07-23-2006 5:20 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/23/2006  5:01 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

You are not reading my posts... killing of innocents is a horrible evil...

the problem with saying that "Of course, Arab states use their power where they find it useful. So does the U.S..."


I draw the distiction between parties that try to avoid civilian casualties and parties that intentionally attach civilians... this was all covered...

we cannot agree because in your relativistic weltschang... there is no difference between Israel, the US and other democracies and some of the most corrupt despots and regimes... your statements put Iran and the US on similar footing...
I cannot in good conscience condone that kind of rhetoric... again, I respect your perspective and convictions... but you have lost all credability in trying to pass yourself of as a moderate in this debate... when faced with a world in peril, I for one trust the conscience of the US before that of Iran, Libia, Russia, China, France, Spain, Italy, China etc...

In the history of the world's civilizations, the US has the unique stature of an exporter of freedom and democracy.. (the US is not a panecea, but it is a democracy comprised of mostly well meaning people and leaders who really do want to do the right thing... that does not mean that they do not often have to choose between the lesser of two evils... but I for one cannot put the US in the same moral compass as countries like Russia, China, France etc.

I guess, I have the ability to admire the uniqueness of the US from afar...

I really would appreciate it if you would cease to put words in my mouth, which comes across to me as a means of making you look better in this debate. Where did I ever take a purely relativist stance? I merely stated the reality that all states act in their own "interests" and that it isn't easy to make the U.S. and Israel look "good" when they themselves have engaged in highly questionable acts of aggression, etc. This is just fact, whether you want to accept it or not, and try to turn me into some kind of moral relativist, which I am not, is up to you.

In one sentence you say you claim to respect my point of view, and in another you say I have no credibility. Which one is it? You can't do both, and in my own estimation, this kind of double talk is one of the major reasons why the West's paternalistic and elitist perspective on the world leaves many in the West incapable of understanding any other perspective but theirs. If you have a sense of superiority you are highly unlikely to see any other view as equal to your own, and is a root cause of the aggression and disrespect towards other regions of the world from Europe, the U.S. & Israel.

Now, the Arab world has its own share of problems with its own tainted views of the West, Jews, etc. which we could talk about all day as well, but the repeated attempt to paint the West as some kind of angel is wishful thinking. This is not to say that there are not good things about the West, because I do believe there are many, but the same can be said from other points of view. At this moment in history the majority of the power is with Western nations so they can dominate the debate and use that to their advantage. Meanwhile, they also commit shady and highly questionable acts which either go unchecked or are rationalized as some kind of way to "do good," which is very often a gross oversimplification of reality...and arguably propaganda.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/23/2006  5:18 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by PresIke:

And his article from the other day:

July 18, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Feeding the Enemy
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

You are guilty of your very own accusations... your articles are not written by moderates... Your posts are not truly moderate... you my friend are not a moderate on this issue... that is perfectly okay... but at least be honest about it..

If the US followed Kristoff there would be no real war on terror, the US would just back down to Bin Ladenites, throw Israel to the dogs.. to appease the terrorists...
it is a valid theory, but certainly a wreckless one... is the US to stand on the sideline as corrupt regimes supply funding and WMDs to religious extreemists who are trying to bringing Mohammed's 2nd coming by bring the world into a clash of civilizations???

If 9/11 would have happened under Gore, do you really honestly believe that their would not be a war on terror... is that really your "moderate" viewpoint???

What is Hillary Clinton's viewpoint on the war on terror... she will be the next democratic candidate... does she believe that the US was wrong for not capitulating to terrorists like Spain???

Capitulation to terrorist only encourages the terrorist to use terror as a successful method of furthering their agendas... and giving into a terrorist is a MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE ACT!

I have no need to admit anything to you regarding my perspective, and in no way have I ever uttered the word "moderate" or any other phrase to describe my views. I have mostly played the role of contrarian to the bombardment of propaganda that you have been providing in this thread for days. I already said I disagree with Hezbollah's attacks/kidnappings, as well as Hamas' attacks on Israel. Mainly, I have been trying to give some reasonable perspective as to where this is coming from and why military response from Israel, supported by the U.S., is not going to work.

If anyone needs to admit to not being a moderate, which you appear to be suggesting by claiming I am not a "moderate" (by deductive reasoning) it is you, my friend. If you were so interested in peace you wouldn't be spending all day on here trying to prove why it is acceptable to kill people and label an entire population as evil and out to destroy all things Jewish, Western and American.

With every new sentence you expose yourself as a someone who wants to kill Arabs and others who you are afraid of. "Throw Israel to the dogs???" Where has that every been said by Kristoff, myself, or anyone else who has credibility on this issue? So Kristoff, who you must respect on Darfur an issue which you thumped your chest about a few posts ago, is suddenly Arthur Chamberlain?

Are you William Kristol or Alan Dershowitz in disguise?

Since when do the "terrorists" only speak to themselves? No one is talking about "giving into the terrorists" but should be considering what is best for the majority of people who live in the region...MOST OF WHOM WANT PEACE. Spare us the Bush administrations rhetoric about giving into terrorists.

I'm still wondering if you have ever seen 'Battle of Algiers' or remember Vietnam, because in both instances the aggressors/colonizers did give in to the "terrorists" in the end, and now have peace. Of course, the reason was because the majority of the people who lived there sympathized with the "terrorists" and wanted to get rid of the colonizers. Now, in the case of Israel this is not completely going to happen, but there should be an attempt to reach out to those who want peace instead of fueling the conflict. Your tough guy/cowboy fantasy is exactly what many of "the terrorists" who like perpetual war want anyway (like Hezbollah).

You reap what you sew.

[Edited by - PresIke on 07-23-2006 5:19 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 07-23-2006 5:20 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Rich
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7/23/2006  5:47 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Killa4luv:

exporter of peace & freedom? Yeah like all that peace and freedom they have exported to Iraq & Afghanistan. Or all the peace and democracy the exported to Vietnam.

Once again you call a curveball a ball before it has a chance to reach the plate...

Does not Germany enjoy peace and freedom, does not Japan enjoy peace and freedom...
civilizations do not change overnight... they take years to evolve...

I do not hate the USA... and I am greatful that they help encourage freedom and liberty wherever possible...

Extending your baseball analogy, the U.S. should not have thrown a pitch in Iraq until and unless the game was won in Afghanistan. Our failure to do so has left us stretched to thin to succeed in either place.

The situation in Afghanistan is deteriorating rapidly:

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=12929819&src=rss/topNews
Taliban militants warned Afghans on Sunday to keep away from foreign troops as they planned more attacks, a day after a twin suicide strike against a Canadian patrol killed at least five locals.

The threat of more such attacks, made by a Taliban spokesman in a phone call to Reuters, comes a week before the 26-nation NATO alliance takes on security from a U.S.-led force in southern Afghanistan, its most dangerous assignment in its history.

and Iraq has fallen into a near civil war:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AtdWTjDtrQHEEHmQfbnzVH.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

Bombs kill more than 60 in Baghdad, Kirkuk
Bombs killed more than 60 people and wounded more than 200 Sunday in Baghdad and the northern oil center of Kirkuk — a dramatic escalation of violence as U.S. and Iraqi forces crack down on Iraq's most feared Shiite militia.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki left Sunday for talks in Washington this week with President Bush to discuss sectarian violence, which has risen sharply since Iraq's national unity government took office two months ago.

A suicide driver detonated a minivan at the entrance to a bustling market in Sadr City, the capital's biggest Shiite district and stronghold of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army militia.

At least 34 people were killed and 74 were wounded, the Iraqi army said in a statement. Eight more people died and about 20 were injured when a roadside bomb exploded two hours later at a municipal building in Sadr City about a half mile from the car bombing, the army said.

In Kirkuk, 180 miles to the north, a car bomb detonated at midday near a courthouse. The courthouse is located among a cluster of wooden shops and stalls, many of which burst into flames, engulfing the warren of crowded streets in roiling black smoke.

Twenty people were killed and 159 were wounded, police said. The tally of injured was so high because many people were trampled as panic swept shoppers, police said. Others suffered burns when the initial blast triggered secondary explosions in shops that sold chemicals and flammable liquids, police said.

Scenes at local hospitals were gruesome. Victims young and old lay bleeding on stretchers and gurneys, some of them scarred with horrific burns. Many lay unattended as doctors and nurses scrambled to care for the large number of wounded.

It was the fourth car bombing this month in Kirkuk, the center of Iraq's vast northern oil fields. Tensions have been rising in Kirkuk because the area's Arabs, Kurds and Turkomen all have rival claims to the region.

Also Sunday, the U.S. military announced that an American soldier assigned to the 1st Armored Division was killed the day before in Anbar province, a bastion of the Sunni-dominated insurgency.

[...]

Please don't vitiate your great posts about Israel by defending the incompetency of Bush and Co.
Killa4luv
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7/23/2006  6:57 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Killa4luv:

exporter of peace & freedom? Yeah like all that peace and freedom they have exported to Iraq & Afghanistan. Or all the peace and democracy the exported to Vietnam.

Once again you call a curveball a ball before it has a chance to reach the plate...

Does not Germany enjoy peace and freedom, does not Japan enjoy peace and freedom...
civilizations do not change overnight... they take years to evolve...

I do not hate the USA... and I am greatful that they help encourage freedom and liberty wherever possible...

Japan and Germany? Thats the best you can do. 2 countries from WWII where the former soviet Union lost 20 million soldiers fighting the Nazis? This is your example of exporting freedom and democracy?

Dropping the first nuclear weapons on 2 cities in Japan well after they had already surrendered?

Yeah, thats the problem, the US elite thinks thats the way to export democracy & freedom, and thats why they have been dropping democratic bombs and leading or sponsoring freedom inducing invasions. The only thing is, they results are poor, and the only ones who benefit in the end, are the corrupt elite of that country, and US based corporations (often referred to as national interests).
simrud
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7/23/2006  8:39 PM
Japan did not surrender well before the bombs. Thats just wrong. They surrendered after. They were going to surrender anyways prolly, but at that poitn Soviet Union would have occupied half of their territory. The reason the bombs were dropped was as a deterrent to the Soviet Union. Those two bombs were the only thing that keapt WWII becoming WWIII right then and there.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Rich
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7/23/2006  9:02 PM
Posted by simrud:

Japan did not surrender well before the bombs. Thats just wrong. They surrendered after. They were going to surrender anyways prolly, but at that poitn Soviet Union would have occupied half of their territory. The reason the bombs were dropped was as a deterrent to the Soviet Union. Those two bombs were the only thing that keapt WWII becoming WWIII right then and there.

Yup, it saved a lot of American lives.
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  9:04 PM
PresIke: If anyone needs to admit to not being a moderate, which you appear to be suggesting by claiming I am not a "moderate" (by deductive reasoning) it is you....
colorfl1: on several occasions, and I cannot make myself more clear, I have stated taht I have no tolerance for the intentional killing of innocents for political gain... I call this terrorism... if this is not an uncommon view... and I proudly declare that I am not a fencesitter whenever terrorism is concerned...

I have repeatedly provided material that supports this position; with fair minded individuals declaring that expressing rationalizations for terrorism, is in some degree akin to the act of terror itself. I am unabashed in this view.. and I will proudly declare it on this board.
I do believe in the concept of good and the concept of evil... and I do not believe the expression of such belief is necessary the consequence of a fervor for religion or a higher power... I so not need to phlosophise about Kantian morality on this board...
I firmly believe that terrorism of innocence is a definate evil that needs to irradicated... I do not believe that a fairminded individual would try to paint my opinion as anything but mainstream in the scope western society...

PresIke:With every new sentence you expose yourself as a someone who wants to kill Arabs...
colorfl1: That is sick... I have repeatedly declared that I yearn for peace and brotherhood and that I am pained whenever the innocent suffer... now you are just trying to perform character assasination to try and win a debate??? I have no problem with the moderate muslim... in fact, I have a great affinity for them, share good friendships etc. My statements were always targeted at corrupt regimes and the threat of militant islam... You seem quite intelligent, how is it that you overlooked this distiction in my posts... I never revel in the suffering of others, and to intimate such is dishonest and disingenuous...

PresIke: the majority of people who live in the region...MOST OF WHOM WANT PEACE...
colorfl1: what do you base that tidbit on, if anything there is no lack of support for militant Islam in the Arab world... You do not hear many mullahs decrying the desecration of Allahs name that is caused by Islamo-facist elements like the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Quada... Salmon Rushdie wrote a book and they issued a Fatwah on him... but Islamo-facists do more damage to true Islam and the name of Allah and there is no fatwa issued on these parties by the "majority of the Arab world who just want peace"... you are playing loose with the facts.... poll after poll shows that the majority of Israeli's want peace and a two state solution... where is this majority of the Arab world taht you are reffering to that is ready to make the hard decisions for peace??? This statement really betrays your true leanings on this subject.
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  9:38 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:

[quote]Posted by Killa4luv:[br
[...]

Please don't vitiate your great posts about Israel by defending the incompetency of Bush and Co.

I neither agree with or support the Bush doctrine, as you call it... his domestic policies are an embarassment.

I do however have sympathies for just one strategic aspect of the "neo-con" think tank appoach, I believe in the imperative to help cultivate democracies in the Middle East wherever possible... I was for the war against the Taliban in Afganastan and was more than suspicious of the pandoras box of a war in Iraq...

But I am outraged that the world sees what is happening in Iraq today and refuses to subsantially help Iraqis make a better life for themselves... The people of Afgahnastan and Iraq deserve the world's support and help... where are the volunteers, peace troops and where are the financial commitements... the world by large has abandoned these people because they have other interests and want to stay out of the line of fire of terrorism. They should at least hinder Iran and Syria from activily supporting terrorism against Muslims in this country!

The reason why we have the mess - is important - but ultimately irrelvant at this stage from the perspective of the innocent Iraqi and afghani civilian's who wat a better life.
--- what is the excuse for not helping the Iraqi people secure and build a country by consensus... why do they not thwart Iran and Syria from wrecking thier development as a people... Bush is irrelevent, he will come and go... but the people of afghanastan and Iraq deserve the world's commitment to do all that we can for them...

For the record...
I cried for three days after Bush jr. won that contested election...
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  9:40 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

[Japan and Germany?

Japan and Germany are both thriving liberal democracies.
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  9:46 PM

From the Committee for accurate middle est reporting in America
"Israel is a Mistake" - Is Mistaken
by Eric Rozenman

Washington Post syndicated columnist Richard Cohen asserts in his July 18 commentary "Hunker Down With History" that "Israel itself is a mistake." Historical ignorance and an appeasement mentality underlie such an assertion.

Cohen's lead paragraph reads:

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake . It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

Errors

Israel is not the embodiment of "the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians)." Rather, Israel embodies the return of the Jews, an indigenous people, to their ancestral homeland, in which some Jews always resided;

Approximately one-third of Israel's Jewish population are non-European Jews , including those who immigrated from throughout the Middle East, as well as from Ethiopia and India. Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews who led the Zionist movement and the late 19th, early 20th century resettlement of Eretz Yisrael - the land of Israel - envisioned a state for all Jews.

It was not "the idea of creating a nation of Jews" that produced anti-Israeli warfare and terrorism. It has been Arab-Islamic intolerance of equality and sovereignty for non-Arabs and/or for non-Muslims, and even for Muslims who do not share their particular interpretation of Islam, in the Middle East and beyond, that causes the Arab conflict with Israel. This supremacist attitude also causes periodic violence against and routine social suppression of Christian Arabs, Druze, Copts, Berbers and many other minorities. It fuels Shi'ite versus Sunni violence like that in Iraq, Persian Iranian manipulation and subversion of Arab affairs, hostility to the non-Muslim "Crusader" or Christian West, and - during times of fundamentalist Islamic fervor like the present - dreams of revenge against and conquest of non-Muslim people and lands.

Cohen does not understand that similar intolerance motivated the terrorists who attacked the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, who assassinated Egypt's Anwar Sadat in 1981, who overthrew the Shah of Iran in 1979, who blow up hotels from Egypt to Indonesia, and trains from Madrid to London. Hezbollah's Iranian patrons refer to Israel as "the small Satan." The United States is "the great Satan." Does such hostility make the West, make America a "mistake"?

Failure to connect the dots

The columnist observes that Hezbollah "did not exist 30 years ago" and that Iran "was once a tacit ally of Israel's." A little understanding is a dangerous thing. Hezbollah didn’t exist, but the Muslim Brotherhood, from which most Islamic terrorist groups spring, did. It began in Egypt in the 1920s, a reaction against Western influence in the Arab-Islamic world, including what it decried as America's lax moral and social standards. Will Cohen eventually agree to Islamic law here to erase the "mistake" of individual freedom?

Cohen warns Israel against "subjugating a restless, angry population" in south Lebanon or the West Bank and "having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power." Israel's first responsibility is to survive and protect its citizens. The world will look on each state through the filter of its own perceived interest. To the extent "the world" focuses on Jews, this might discomfit Cohen, but it should not subvert Israeli policy. In any case, its own failures mean the Arab-Islamic world would have "restless, angry populations" had Jews and a Jewish state never existed.

The columnist advises Israel "to pull back to defensible - put hardly impervious - borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank - and waiting and hoping that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue." Such fatuousness accords with neither Jewish nor military history. One cannot imagine Cohen giving such advice to Washington, D.C.-area police or the Pentagon if rockets were falling on his neighborhood.

Until fanatics like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stopping calling for Israel's destruction, Cohen recommends "it is best for Israel to hunker down." Hunker down and wait for Crusaders, the Inquisition, the Black Hundreds, the Gestapo, Nasser or Saddam? Cohen doesn't just stare history in the face and blink, he pulls the covers over his head.

Moral failure

If seemingly unrelenting Arab-Islamic hostility convinces Cohen that "Israel is a mistake," then would Cohen's response to pervasive European antisemitism in the 1930s have been that it was a force of nature to be submitted to? Given that many people in early America thought blacks inferior, should the slaves not have been freed? Since kings and aristocrats insisted for centuries that they ruled by divine right, and society organized itself accordingly, would Cohen have counseled acquiescence?

No mistake, but great success

Cohen, who in the past has taken on antisemites like those in the Nation of Islam, seems not to understand Israel at all. Not a "mistake," Israel is perhaps the most successful of the scores of post-colonial, post-World War II states. It is, among other things:

* A true democracy , with independent courts, free press, independent political parties and equal rights for all citizens, including women and non-Jewish minorities - unlike any of the 21 Arab states;

* A world leader, despite its population of just over six million, in scientific research and development, home to breakthroughs in areas from agriculture to medicine, high technology innovations including cell phone development and cancer detection and treatment, and military innovations such as the precision targeting system that helped the United States hit Al Qaeda's Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq;

* A model of a successful multi-cultural society, not only with Jews from scores of countries, speaking dozens of languages, but also of various ethnic and racial backgrounds, and non-Jewish citizens and resident aliens from around the world.

With Tony Judt & Ahmadinejad, Dreaming of a World Without Israel

The columnist cites the "gifted British historian Tony Judt ...." Judt is a vocal post- or anti-Zionist advocate of a "one-state solution" in which Israel abandons its Jewish character in favor of a "bi-national" Palestine of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip - the Palestine Liberation Organization's old propaganda slogan of a "democratic, secular Palestine," Except that when the Arabs outnumber the Jews in such a state, it would be unlikely to remain either democratic or secular. And if the Jews aren't expelled or worse, they would likely become second-class citizens walking on eggshells, as they have been in every Arab or Muslim country they have resided in.

Cohen simply cannot comprehend that Israel was not to be just a refuge for Jews fleeing oppression, but the center of a Jewish people reborn and flourishing. And, despite the war waged against it, so it has become. Without this "mistake," the Jewish people, in demographic decline elsewhere, would face a tenuous future. Last October, Ahmadinejad asked the world to consider "A Future Without the United States and Israel." Such a future is the logical conclusion of a column whose premise is that "Israel is a mistake."

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=38&x_article=1150
colorfl1
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7/23/2006  10:04 PM
To anyone that i have confronted on this board.

You have my respect: because you care, and that is unfortunately often rare.

You are all really good prople and I would take joy in your good fortune.. and be disheartened by news of the opposite...

I bare no annomisity to the people I debate, though it may get geated at times... it is only within the perameters of debate... you are all truly gentlemen and good chaps... ('');

yours truly,

colorfl1
arkrud
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7/23/2006  10:29 PM
This thread while running around the recent war in Middle East is eventfully gravitate to the question of Good and Evil.
I think it is logical because the War itself is the scene which show the Good and Evil of Human Race the best.

So what is the good and evil? I guess every person, religion, culture have its own unique view, claiming however that the Good and Evil must be same for all people. Isn't this perception by itself an Original sin?

I have my own view on Good and Evil. I want to share it with Killa, colorfl1, PresIke and others on the thread. I don't want you to accept my view but I am curious what do you think about it.

I see the Good in majority of the People on the Earth who have their values set to the love to their Family, the God they believe in, or moral values if they are not religious, the absolute value of any human life as unique and non-repeatable miracle of nature, the local, national, and world culture created the unbelievable peaces of art, technology, and science.

I see the Evil in small group of people of all nations, races, and religions who have their values set to absolute power and oppression of other people, total control of the minds and lives of millions, ability to decide life and death, and who should get what in the live, unlimited greed for money regardless of the cost for others.

Do we have this people in USA, in Israel, in Lebanon, and everywhere? I guess we do.
It is not Jews kill the Arabs and not the Arabs killed the Jews. All we see is the result of what this Evil people do on both sides and beyond.
Nobody will stop this War or other wars and other Evil things unless all of the people of Good will step up and reject what the people of Evil try to accomplish each an every day regardless of who the Evil people are – people of their nation, fate, country or the contrary.

The democracy and freedom is a tool to accomplish this and it will be challenged in the West and it will be fought in the East. I truly believe that the people in Middle East will sunner or later understand who the Evil people are... but it is a long way to go… I also hope that we in the West will not allow our Evil people to dominate the world.

It sad: “Made the Good from the Bad. Because it is nothing else to make Good from”




"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Rich
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USA
7/23/2006  10:39 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:

[quote]Posted by Killa4luv:[br
[...]

Please don't vitiate your great posts about Israel by defending the incompetency of Bush and Co.

I neither agree with or support the Bush doctrine, as you call it... his domestic policies are an embarassment.

I do however have sympathies for just one strategic aspect of the "neo-con" think tank appoach, I believe in the imperative to help cultivate democracies in the Middle East wherever possible... I was for the war against the Taliban in Afganastan and was more than suspicious of the pandoras box of a war in Iraq...

But I am outraged that the world sees what is happening in Iraq today and refuses to subsantially help Iraqis make a better life for themselves... The people of Afgahnastan and Iraq deserve the world's support and help... where are the volunteers, peace troops and where are the financial commitements... the world by large has abandoned these people because they have other interests and want to stay out of the line of fire of terrorism. They should at least hinder Iran and Syria from activily supporting terrorism against Muslims in this country!

The reason why we have the mess - is important - but ultimately irrelvant at this stage from the perspective of the innocent Iraqi and afghani civilian's who wat a better life.
--- what is the excuse for not helping the Iraqi people secure and build a country by consensus... why do they not thwart Iran and Syria from wrecking thier development as a people... Bush is irrelevent, he will come and go... but the people of afghanastan and Iraq deserve the world's commitment to do all that we can for them...

For the record...
I cried for three days after Bush jr. won that contested election...

I think almost everyone supported the war in Afghanistan because the people that, in Bush's words "knocked those buildings down," planned the attack in Afghanistan and were protected by the Taliban.

The problem is that even before the job was finished, resources were being diverted away from Afghanistan in order to plan for the invasion of Iraq, long before Bush had received Congressional authorization, which he ultimately received by manipulating the intelligence on Saddam's WMD programs.

Cultivating democracies in the Middle East is a noble goal, but even noble goals cannot compensate for poor planning and insufficent preparation.

That is what happened with Bush's invasion of Iraq. We now know that although Bush and Co. had a plan to take out Saddam, no effort was given to conceiving a plan to win the peace. We are paying the price for that now.

As for whether or not the rest of the world should help, you have to keep in mind that that failure also flows from Bush's hubris. In stark contrast to the broad coaltion that his father assembled when he was preparing for Gulf War I, Bush II could only assemble a very small coalition, because he insulted our allies at every turn and was insensitive to their interets. For example, our NATO allies wanted Bush to allow the UN Inspectors to finish their job in Iraq before an invasion. Indeed, that is what the Congressional resolution required. Instead Bush pulled the UN Inspectors out of Iraq and attacked anyway, just as he and Blair had planned. Consequently, I don't blame the world community for not wanting to get involved in Iraq.

The allies also wanted a share of the revenue from the business opportunities that would arise from a redeveloping Iraq. Bush refused to give them a share, preferring instead to give the spoils to the corporations that were his biggest political donors, through no bid contracts.

Ironically, the biggest beneficiary of the Iraqi war is Iran, as the Shias in Iraq are their natural allies.

That points to a problem with democratizing the Middle East. As was predicted by many before the war, when elections are held in Arab countries, the forces that are opposed to US interests would likely win. That is exactly what happened with Hamas in the Palestinian territories.

To sum up, as good as Bush I was at diplomacy, Bush II is just awful. Under his Administration, we have ignored and snubbed our allies so often, that I can't blame them for not wanting to get involved in Iraq now that it is fallen into total chaos (they are involved, however, through NATO, in Afghanistan).

In the wake of 9/11, Bush had an opportunity to unite the world against terrorism. Even the French were sympathetic to our cause. But after six years of the most arrogant and idiotic foreign policy in US history, Bush has alienated most of the people of this country and the world.

At this point, I'm not sure that success is even possible in Iraq or Afghanistan, no matter what, without regime change...in the U.S.
colorfl1
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Canada
7/24/2006  1:20 AM
Everything you said is plain and true...
but I reiterate... the world needs to get beyond pettiness - and care for the Iraqi and afghani people, they are long overdue for a break... why cant the world give a damn about their right to live in a civilize society and pursue their happiness --- forget the pettiness help these people out, they are being slaughtered every day...


The reason why we have the mess - is important - but ultimately irrelvant at this stage from the perspective of the innocent Iraqi and afghani civilian's who wat a better life!!!

--- what is the excuse for not helping the Iraqi people secure and build a country by consensus... why do they not thwart Iran and Syria from wrecking thier development as a people...
Bush is irrelevent, he will come and go... but the people of afghanastan and Iraq deserve the world's commitment to do all that we can for them...
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
7/24/2006  1:33 AM
Posted by colorfl1:

Everything you said is plain and true...
but I reiterate... the world needs to get beyond pettiness - and care for the Iraqi and afghani people, they are long overdue for a break... why cant the world give a damn about their right to live in a civilize society and pursue their happiness --- forget the pettiness help these people out, they are being slaughtered every day...


The reason why we have the mess - is important - but ultimately irrelvant at this stage from the perspective of the innocent Iraqi and afghani civilian's who wat a better life!!!

--- what is the excuse for not helping the Iraqi people secure and build a country by consensus... why do they not thwart Iran and Syria from wrecking thier development as a people...
Bush is irrelevent, he will come and go... but the people of afghanastan and Iraq deserve the world's commitment to do all that we can for them...

I think it's too late for that. What are the contours of a feasible solution in Iraq at this point? Which Iraqi people? They are at each others' throats. Helping the Shias is tantamount to helping Iran. The Kurds just want to carve out their own country in northern Iraq.

I guess any possiblity of a deal depends on getting more oil revenue for the Sunnis. Are we prepared to fight the Shias if they won't reach a political solution? Taking sides in a civil war is incredibly dangerous.

The U.S. is on its way toward spending a trillion in Iraq. Despite that sad fact, the moronic, immoral president continues to cut taxes for the richest Americans, and added a entitlement program (the Medicare drug plan) that we can't afford, for purely political reasons.

We don't have enough troops to continue to occupy Iraq, and deal with Iran and North Korea, which everyone knew were bigger threats before the Iraqi invasion.

As I said, noble ideas are nice, but pragmatism has to trump everything else.

Bush has so FUBAR'd this thing, I'm not sure there is a way out other than to redeploy.
colorfl1
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Canada
7/24/2006  1:33 AM
IDF: Terrorists running out of rockets

Yaakov Katz, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 24, 2006
IDF Military Intelligence (MI) believes the army has 10 days left before diplomatic pressure puts an end to operation Change of Direction against Hizbullah, The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday.

In addition, MI - reflecting its latest strategic assessment - believes that the Islamist group has already been dealt a severe blow by the IDF operation launched 12 days ago, and that within a month it will run out of Katyusha rockets to fire at Israel.

Hizbullah is organized along military lines, with regional commands in southern, northern and central Lebanon. The unit in the south, called the "Katyusha Unit" by the IDF, consists of some 1,000 fighters who have been responsible for most of the rocket attacks on communities north of Acre and Amiad.

The unit has been able to recruit reserves, but MI has noticed that it has run into difficulty convincing members of the terror group who reside in northern Lebanon to travel south to participate in the fighting.

Once the unit exhausts the missiles currently in its possession, it will, MI believes, have difficulty acquiring more, since most of the roads and supply routes have been destroyed by the IDF. Several Syrian and Iranian attempts to send supplies to Hizbullah have been thwarted by the IDF.

North of the Litani River, Hizbullah operates a unit called the "medium-range rocket unit" believed to be responsible for firing Katyushas at Haifa and Israel's northern coast. Most of that unit's missiles were supplied by Syria prior to the current conflict.

This unit is also believed to have an arsenal of long-range rockets - Iranian-made Fajr 5 and Zelzal missiles capable of reaching targets 200 km. away.

Hizbullah still has several functioning military command centers in different regions in Lebanon, according to MI assessments. Officials in these centers are still able to command Hizbullah's men in the field.

Military Intelligence has set up a team to oversee targeted killings of Hizbullah officials, but the unit has had limited success. MI does not believe that killing Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah would necessarily end the conflict.

MI believes that Hizbullah has been dealt a "critical blow" to its image in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world. Lebanese leaders blame Nasrallah for provoking Israel and "bringing a disaster upon their country," MI believes.

Hizbullah also reportedly has three units charged with intelligence operations. One unit is in charge of espionage against Israel, including the recruitment of agents who gather intelligence on IDF bases and other strategic installations.
A unit called "1800" is reportedly responsible for the recruitment of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

There is also reportedly a third unit, in charge of counter-intelligence operations.
O.T. War in the middle East...

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