Posted by tkf:

Posted by McK1:

Fryes back to he basket game is in the gutter. Thats not his thing. He generally had no clue what to do with the ball on the block and looks like he lacked the leg strength to pull off the 1 or 2 moves he did get a chance to attempt. Playing him that way exposes all kinds of holes in Frye's game and Isiah's I would've taken him over Bogut kool-aid splashin'. Its like when LB played Curry 42 in the opener, 30 minutes or more just ain't happenning.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-10-2005 12:53 AM]

ah, bogut has no back to the basket game either. but if you noticed the time that frye did make a move in the post and score, or the fact taht the suns were constantly double teaming him, I think he got fould a bit, but hey, he is due a bad game, missed a few jump hooks that he makes most of the time, you look to find fault, where there really is none....

who are you Isiahs publicist?

Bogut doesn't get pushed off his pivot. Frye has no base. Work that back to the basket stuff out in practice in the weight room and over the summer. Bring it out the box next year. Channing knocking down jumpers and making quick moves off of screens is what he does best. Play to his strengths.

Trying to post him is why he went 4-19 and for the first time looked like he was zapped out there. NY can't win without his shooting nor his overall energy.


[Edited by - McK1 on 12-10-2005 01:04 AM]

I wonder how many bucks games you have seen?

[NEWLY ADDED] Firstly I'd like to say that I've been a HUGE supporter of what's been going on with the Knicks since the hiring of Isiah, but this team, right now, is not that good at all, and I do not see major improvement pending some significant changes either with players themselves or with personell.

I hope we improve, and maybe I was naive to hope to see some improvement at this point. I told myself I'd give it time, and I have not given up on this team, but RIGHT NOW we are not anywhere near good.

I dunno if those who have been consistently optimistic about the near future have been watching the games as of late but I just think we are not a good team or close to a "very good" team as someone stated.[/NEWLY ADDED]


We did not play a good game CONSISTENTLY at all, and has been a problem for this team all season. I saw times when we looked together, but so many other times, especially at important junctures where we choked, as against the Clips, such as bad shot selection, eating up the shot clock or a turnover. It is also clear there is no real leader out there, nor do we have a real go-to guy.

Steph is immensely talented, but he has no go-to move when we really need it. He relies on driving strong to the hole in heavy traffic and hope to get the ball in (unlikely) or get fouled (more likely, but not probable), or dish it well (which I rarely see when he really looks like he's driving hard to the hole).

What makes great players, from what I have come to understand, is a "go-to" move that is very hard to stop. Ewing had his patented moves and Jordan became a great player when he learned to post and improve his outside shooting which resulted in that sick turn around jumper. His jumper than accompanied his great ability to drive and shoot.

Steph does not have that, and is therefore more of a Scottie Pippen to the Jordan we don't have.

Curry is also incredibly frustrating to watch. I LOVED those few nice post moves: one was that hook shot, which we see often, the other was the post and turnaround jumper from the baseline, which I cannot recall seeing.

Then we have to see things like the Knicks trying to establish Curry in the post, but the Suns guarding him well. So what he does is basically stand still and try to reach out farther, or something. I saw this a several times, saying to myself, "Move around." (which is another problem I saw with the rest of the team while trying to post up Curry). I know he's been picking up a lot of offensive fouls (another problem...like lowering his shoulder while driving...uggh) so maybe that's what he's afraid of, but if the other guy is battling you, you have to do something. I saw a few times when say Curry was on the left post battling KT on the edge of the paint, where all he would have had to do was spin right and he would cause separation from his man. However, he did nothing but stand still and the Knicks had to pass the ball around the perimeter for a bad shot.

Our defense was not THAT GOOD, and our interior & penetration defense was horrible most of the game as well. The Suns missed several open shots or those that came in the flow of the offense. I didn't see many of those misses relating to our defense, and I had been high on the Knicks a few games back about their D.

Steve Nash was also repeatedly getting by his man for short jumpers, dishes and uncontested or lightly contested layups. WHY DO WE THINK THE SUNS SHOT ONLY 2 FREE THROWS? I know they like to shoot from the perimeter, but it wasn't as if no one ever drove to the lane or took shots in the paint. Marion was horribly off, and others were missing a lot shots I think the Suns normally make.

The turnover thing is beyond atrocious, and seems to occur at the worst possible time, on several occasions. In the middle of the 2nd quarter, after our nice run to take the lead, we just kept turning the ball over and over and over, accompanied with bad shot selection. And the Suns couldn't hit ANYTHING as were quite tentative. We should have blown the game open, and after we didn't I was convinced the Suns would come back, because we can't put nails in the coffin.

Frye had understandable jitters, and I thought Nate was the best player on the Knicks during the game, despite a few bad shots, and errors, his defense later in the game was keeping Nash from doing things easily. But we couldn't muster a real run to come back.

Unless we get another real star, or Frye improves REAL FAST, or someone else surprises us and steps up BIG TIME, we are not going to get much better, unless we become a defensive juggernaut, which I'm not counting on.

[Edited by - PresIke on 12-10-2005 01:47 AM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 12-10-2005 01:48 AM]

Posted by Therapist:

Posted by SlimPack:


thats not true their defense is not as good as ours

can't argue there, their defense is real bad

They did a pretty effective job on us tonight. all this talk of us forcing into the post is testimony to their defense on Frye and Curry. Steph has an effective first quarter but the rest of his points didn't come not easily. None of our guys really got off. And overall they held us to 81 pts.

I don't know who's D is better or worse, but I'm not sure theirs is laughable. If it is then our offense is a real scream.

Phoenix' 2-3 zone was stifling. Thomas and Diaw did an excellent job denying Curry in the 2nd half despite giving up 2 inches and 50 lbs...

As for NY
Nates on ball defense makes him worth his weight in gold . Can't wait to see this team when we get 4 other guys up to Nates speed and start pressing and trapping...

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-10-2005 02:25 AM]

Posted by tomverve:

Phoenix is good on D this season, fellas. They are #3 in the entire NBA right now in points allowed per 100 possessions (Knicks are only 17th). And our offensive efficiency is only 26th, while Phoenix's is 4th. Going by those rankings, we shouldn't be too upset about how this game turned out.

Biggest problem of the game, once again, is simply turnovers. Simple. It's not any one guy, it's just the whole team's propensity to turn the ball over. TOs are so costly and we've been the worst at that in the league all season. Our shooting %s as a team are low as well, but we're among the best in the league at crashing the offensive boards and we also are great at getting to the line and making shots there. I don't expect the shooting %s to change much, but the number of TOs the team has been making is unacceptable and should not be as bad as it is.

Sup Tom,

I know you're a big "pom-pommer" here and on the NY Times Forum, and I'm still supportive of the possibility of improvement, and I have seen some, but if you watched this game and how we performed in the second half of the Clippers game, our weaknesses are glaring.

I know it's not just one player, but teams can be affected by strong leadership on the court, besides from the coach. Besides that, Steph is really having to carry too much of the load, as the "star" when he should be second fiddle to someone else. I think he's a fantastic player, but we need a second REAL star or the rest of the team to shape up, at least.

Phoenix may be better than us and on D this year, but I dunno if you watched the game, but a decent team would have won this game, as the Clippers game. It's that these are games where our opposition is basically giving us the game to win, but we can't do it. Statistics do not tell the entire story here, with regards to the Suns vs. our offense either. The Suns had several open jump shots, or good looks (at least) that they missed, and Nash penetrated easily many times causing havoc.

It is true that turnovers are KILLING us. But some of these turnovers seem so bone-headed that it really makes one wonder about the near future prospects for the current Knicks. I know the team is struggling with identity, have barely played with one another and Larry Brown, but they are supposed to be professionals, some of them with what seems like real talent. Being on the court is clearly much harder than me critiquing from my computer, but some of these TO's are REALLY BAD. Larry Brown must want to shoot himself (or his players) during some of these moments, and it looks like he does sometimes.

If we can minimize the TO's that might stop the bleeding, but if it doesn't somehow affect other weaknesses, like bad shot selection, and lack of movement on the O, weak interior D, as well as inconsistent perimeter D (we started the season high in FG% D but have dropped steadily to something like 14th now, even though I give them props...Steph & Craw included, for improving) we will not be good enough to make the playoffs by years end, if that is what I expected most thought was a realistic goal for this season.

Pres, I don't consider myself a "pom-pomer." I just try to look at things coolly and realistically (though during the games, yes, I have been yelling at my TV screen more often than not). And I don't think I denied anywhere that this Knicks team has some big weaknesses (obviously we do).

Yes, I watched the game last night. Both of the last two losses were frustrating, but if you take a step back, you see we lost to two very good teams on the road and were competetive in both games. You'd like to see the team pull through with a win, but the reality of the situation is that this team is still not there yet under Brown, and even good teams have to lose every now and then-- especially when they play good teams on the road.

On offense, our two biggest team weaknesses are eFG% and TOs. The eFG% is going to be tough to raise substantially without adding some personnel (a true shooter who can hit the 3 at SF would do wonders), but as you noted, many of our TOs are just of the overly sloppy or boneheaded variety, so there is reason to believe we can improve substantially in that area. And if we can do that, we can win a lot more games. If we committed an average # of TOs for an NBA team over the last two games, we very likely would have won one of them, and perhaps both.

Posted by tomverve:

Here's something to consider-- why does it seem like both of the last two games were almost "gimmes"? Was it just a coincidence that two of the better teams in the NBA played off games against us? Or were we just good enough for long enough during both games to put up a serious fight, but not quite good enough to maintain it long enough to pull out a win?

Would any decent team have won those games? Maybe a better question is, would just any decent team have played well enough to make it look like they *should have* won those games?

Our team is kind of schizo right now. We look absolutely wretched at some times. At others, we put together stretches of play that make us very competetive with some of the NBA's best. There are definitely flashes of brilliance mixed in with the mud and the dirt, so the potential is there. Larry and the team just have to figure out how to make the flashes of brilliance last longer and the patches of bad play last shorter. Something as simple as cutting down on TOs would go a long way towards doing that I think.

good good questions. i have 2 thoughts in response:

1. i think the quality of play is low throughout the league right now. i think the beginnings of seasons the last few years have been like this. my guess is there are so many young players, new coaches, less than stellar fundamentals, that it's really not until the 2nd half of the season that you see good ball. certain teams may have good records early on only to fall behind in the second half of the season when more talented ones start to gel.

2. we are an extreme example of this because we have it all - new coach, a lot of new players, a lot of youth, a ridiculous amount of poor fundamentals being exhibited. i don't think there's any way to reach any conclusions about this roster yet. we gottta hang in through the learning process and see what we got in the 2nd half of the season.

[Edited by - marv on 12-10-2005 2:34 PM]

i thought this game was good developmental building block for the team and i think lb was relatively happy with them b/c they stuck to his gameplan from beginning to end. right now, i agree that we do not have good bball IQ but we did a good job controlling the pace of the game. it's SLOWLY coming together...VERY SLOWLY. i also agree about bringing in some solid short-term vets that cna still play to help these young guys along. problem is, they're tough to acquire thanks to our bloated contracts (but that's another rant). i was actually a little encouraged by this road trip as we were in every game and potentially could've won all 3 of them.

now...moral victories...at the end of the day mean jack to the bottom line of W's and L's. but we're all hoping that these "moral victories" WILL help up attain those W's and L's over the longhual.

Hey marv man. Sorry to hear about your loss. I know you have been through a long struggle.

Just remember all the times good or bad. The feelings you have will keep him alive in you.

Peace.