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OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact
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tkf
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9/7/2005  4:01 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by tkf:

neither do those other countries harbor and support terrorist, and yes there are facts that Iraq were enabling terrorists.....
Why is it just Iraq that got invaded then? It didnt have much to do with harboring terrorists. If it did, why are Pakistan and Saudi Arabia never even warned much less invaded? (some 9/11 hijackers were from those countries. London bombers were of the pakistani descent) They do a lot more for terrorists than any other country in the world.

It has been proven that Saudi Arabia's royal family and their rich Sheikh oil tycoons sponsor terrorism, not just in the Middle East, but everwhere in the world. Pakistan's intelligence agency gives safe refugee to terrorists. Pakistan's army general is the President (basically a dictator) of the country and they have openly announced their nuclear capabilites. Why are they allies when their country is on the brink of a bloody civil war? What will happen when the radical sunni's cleric who HATE the United States come into power? I dont think we care. They dont have any oil.



I don't know that answer? maybe they were the biggest threat? maybe we start with Iraq and our influence there will allow us to keep a cloers eye on surrounding nations like pakistan, who knows. I was just answering a question...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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nyvector16
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9/7/2005  4:04 PM
Just to put thing in contrast.. It's not jsut Iraq... Or the Terrible Management of the NO tragedy.

At the beginning of Bush's Presidency... N. Korea did not have Nuclear capability...
Now they have between 5 and 10 Nukes.

At the Beginning of his Presidency Iran(Most dangerous country to US national security in the middle East) was nowhere near getting a Nuke... Now they have their own Nuclear Power Plant and are processing their own fuel (as opposed to being supplied the fuel by the Russians as the original arrangement with Russia called for) It is estimated they are 5 years away from an operable Nuke.

At the beginning of his presidency our National Parks were protected from Industry.
Now the Lumber industry has free reign.

At the beginning of his presidency our country was going in the right direction in controlling CO2 Emissions to prevent Global Warming... Now there is no plan and no intention to create one.

I could go on and on... really I can...
2008 can't come soon enough.



[Edited by - nyvector16 on 09-07-2005 4:05 PM]
tkf
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9/7/2005  4:05 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by tkf:

where was the Lousianna national guard?
Iraq?
all of them? I don't thinks so....
how many does it take for them to be ineffective? Why are ANY there at all? GW didnt go during NAM and we had a bloddy draft then. Can someone explain that to me?

I have 2 friends in the NG. 12 hours after Floyde trashed Fla they were flown down for security and stayed for labor. They worked so hard they had a parade and were "hurricane Floyd heros." Now they are shooting Arabs in you know where.

When he was elected I asked my wife just how much damage could he actually do? How bad could his policies actually make things?

Guess we are finding out



good questions fish, I don't have those answers, it seems like the NG issue is a touchy one for you and for good reason as you have stated.. we are fighting a war on terror, I have to believe that this war is necessary, the threat of terrorism sure is, but that is another argument... This Hurricane is enough for me...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
oohah
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9/7/2005  4:11 PM
neither do those other countries harbor and support terrorist, and yes there are facts that Iraq were enabling terrorists.....

My god man, check your facts. Do you really think Iraq is the only country that has harbored these types of characters? Did you know that Bush was Hunky-Dory with Afgahnistan before 911? How about Saudi Arabia? Do you think they have any terrorist connections over there? How are their human rights doing?

Another fact: Saddam did not get along with Islamic Terrorists. They did not like him because he ran his business in a secular fashion.

Now please tell me who the terrorists that Iraq has harbored and how we are doing catching them IN IRAQ. (Not the new ones that developed during the war please.)
So it is OK for someone to say they are intending to mislead you and twist the truth to fit their story, as long as they tell you up front?

Only if you want to put it in a way that makes no sense. It is OK to have a point of view and express that point of view, no matter what a dweeb you are (Moore not you.). But when you start claiming "no spin", you are asserting objectivity, and O'Reilly isn't objective (Often.).
this is the very thing that O'reilly talks about.

What is
Can you point out in specific where O'reilly lied

When he swore to be faithful to his wife. When he told Mackris that he would not speak to her like a whore. When he has gone on TV and railed on about family values and morality: http://www.fair.org/press-releases/oreilly-harassment.html

And by asking for a 'specific' you are just joining in the spin of O'Reilly on this topic. He told everyone she was 'evil', and that he was going to fight it, and he brought a lawsuit against her. Stop spinning.

More:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6242870/
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34312-2004Oct15.html
and as far as the Micheal Jackson thing, you completely took that out of context, he also addressed that and even put the transcript on line one time, he said he felt MJ was guilty, and that paying people off over and over again doesn't help his case, which I agree,O'reilly paid off a girl which he said was trying to extort him, if he had done this 3 times or so, yea, I would call what he said hypocritical.. But come on man..

Me come on? It is okay pay someone off once but not 3 times? Ludicrous! He only paid her off because she had him DEAD TO RIGHTS! I'd like you to provide me with the original program where O'reilly is criticizing Jackson and is simultaneously drawing this distinction (Not the one where he was spinning to cover his ass.)

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Stevo718
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9/7/2005  4:29 PM
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

Article written last year...

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

Such high stakes compelled a host of unlikely bedfellows—scientists, environmental groups, business leaders, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers—to forge a radical plan to protect what's left. Drafted by the Corps a year ago, the Louisiana Coastal Area (LCA) project was initially estimated to cost up to 14 billion dollars over 30 years, almost twice as much as current efforts to save the Everglades. But the Bush Administration balked at the price tag, supporting instead a plan to spend up to two billion dollars over the next ten years to fund the most promising projects. Either way, Congress must authorize the money before work can begin.

The state's first oil well was punched in south Louisiana in 1901, and the world's first offshore rig went into operation in the Gulf of Mexico in 1947.

The deep offshore wells now account for nearly a third of all domestic oil production,

The oil industry has been good to Louisiana, providing low taxes and high-paying jobs. But such largesse hasn't come without a cost, largely exacted from coastal wetlands. The most startling impact has only recently come to light—the effect of oil and gas withdrawal on subsidence rates. For decades geologists believed that the petroleum deposits were too deep and the geology of the coast too complex for drilling to have any impact on the surface. But two years ago former petroleum geologist Bob
Morton, now with the U.S. Geological Survey, noticed that the highest rates of wetland loss occurred during or just after the period of peak oil and gas production in the 1970s and early 1980s. After much study, Morton concluded that the removal of millions of barrels of oil, trillions of cubic feet of natural gas, and tens of millions of barrels of saline formation water lying with the petroleum deposits caused a drop in subsurface pressure—a theory known as regional depressurization. That led nearby underground faults to slip and the land above them to slump.

"When you stick a straw in a soda and suck on it, everything goes down," Morton explains. "That's very simplified, but you get the idea." The phenomenon isn't new: It was first documented in Texas in 1926 and has been reported in other oil-producing areas such as the North Sea and Lake Maracaibo in Venezuela. Morton won't speculate on what percentage of wetland loss can be pinned on the oil industry. "What I can tell you is that much of the loss between Bayou Lafourche and Bayou Terrebonne was caused by induced subsidence from oil and gas withdrawal. The wetlands are still there, they're just underwater." The area Morton refers to, part of the Barataria-Terrebonne estuary, has one of the highest rates of wetland loss in the state.

C.R.E.A.M. Bottom line.
tkf
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9/7/2005  4:30 PM
Posted by oohah:
neither do those other countries harbor and support terrorist, and yes there are facts that Iraq were enabling terrorists.....

My god man, check your facts. Do you really think Iraq is the only country that has harbored these types of characters? Did you know that Bush was Hunky-Dory with Afgahnistan before 911? How about Saudi Arabia? Do you think they have any terrorist connections over there? How are their human rights doing?
Another fact: Saddam did not get along with Islamic Terrorists. They did not like him because he ran his business in a secular fashion.

Now please tell me who the terrorists that Iraq has harbored and how we are doing catching them IN IRAQ. (Not the new ones that developed during the war please.)
So it is OK for someone to say they are intending to mislead you and twist the truth to fit their story, as long as they tell you up front?

Only if you want to put it in a way that makes no sense. It is OK to have a point of view and express that point of view, no matter what a dweeb you are (Moore not you.). But when you start claiming "no spin", you are asserting objectivity, and O'Reilly isn't objective (Often.).
this is the very thing that O'reilly talks about.

What is
Can you point out in specific where O'reilly lied

When he swore to be faithful to his wife. When he told Mackris that he would not speak to her like a whore. When he has gone on TV and railed on about family values and morality: http://www.fair.org/press-releases/oreilly-harassment.html

And by asking for a 'specific' you are just joining in the spin of O'Reilly on this topic. He told everyone she was 'evil', and that he was going to fight it, and he brought a lawsuit against her. Stop spinning.

More:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6242870/
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34312-2004Oct15.html
and as far as the Micheal Jackson thing, you completely took that out of context, he also addressed that and even put the transcript on line one time, he said he felt MJ was guilty, and that paying people off over and over again doesn't help his case, which I agree,O'reilly paid off a girl which he said was trying to extort him, if he had done this 3 times or so, yea, I would call what he said hypocritical.. But come on man..

Me come on? It is okay pay someone off once but not 3 times? Ludicrous! He only paid her off because she had him DEAD TO RIGHTS! I'd like you to provide me with the original program where O'reilly is criticizing Jackson and is simultaneously drawing this distinction (Not the one where he was spinning to cover his ass.)

oohah

ok which is it? first you ask me is Iraq the only country that harbor these terrorist? Then you come back telling me that they don't?

I can go and get a list of islamic terrorist that went to hospitals in Iraq were harbored there, treated there and realeased, but I have the feeling that by doing that it won't change how you feel.

As far as O'reilly goes there is probably no way to get that transcript off the net now, but you are free to order it, they will send you a copy, but if you think that Bill O'reilly is a liar because he was sued by some lady for sexual harrassment( like how many rich guys aren't sued for this) and he criticized MJ for being guilty of child molestation then I can't help you there.. mabey hypocritical? but a liar? and again the lady took a pay off so I don't give much weight to those who sue like that and except payoffs.... Do you really think their situations were the same. And what I meant by the comment " this is the very thing O'reilly talks about" is when people take his comments out of context to try and discredit him.. But if you can get me the quote where he said that about MJ I will glady say you are correct and leave it at that...

Again find me a journalist that attacks the issues, find me a journalist that has held the judges accountable who fail to protect the children by not putting away child molesters. find me a journalist whowill give both sides of the story, that is what I am asking, until then all you have are accusations vs Bill O'reilley, really do you have any facts about the lawsuit and that lady? I don't think anyone has the truth on that, until then it just seems people will use anything to discredit a guy who has held a lot of peoples feet to the fire...


[Edited by - tkf on 09-07-2005 4:35 PM]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Rich
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9/7/2005  4:48 PM
Posted by Knight:

Thanks Rich, it's nice to know the President was in contact with federal and state emergency officials from the outset. I think time will show that the President was given confidence that sufficient relief efforts were prepared--then when things didn't get done he stepped right in and rectified the situation. I would compare it to a situation in war, in which the President has confidence in the top Army commanders to come up with a specific strategy for a battle--you put people in charge who you believe can do the job--but as soon as they demonstrate incompetence, as soon as you start losing the battle, you have to step in. But you can't expect the President to be the top Army specialist, or disaster relief specialist, or CIA intelligence specialist--but somehow he is ultimately responsible for the outcome or at least how he responds to it.


Do you ever think for yourself or do you only repeat right wing drivel?

That picture is merely evidence of the following:

Bush had advanced warning and did nothing:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/30/State/For_forecasting_chief.shtml

[...]

On Saturday night, Mayfield was so worried about Hurricane Katrina that he called the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi and the mayor of New Orleans. On Sunday [August 28th,], he even talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.

"I just wanted to be able to go to sleep that night knowing that I did all I could do," Mayfield said.

Rich
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9/7/2005  4:54 PM
That title is from an editorial today in the super-conservative super-Republican Manchester Union Leader:

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=59785

AS THE EXTENT of Hurricane Katrina’s devastation became clearer on Tuesday — millions without power, tens of thousands homeless, a death toll unknowable because rescue crews can’t reach some regions — President Bush carried on with his plans to speak in San Diego, as if nothing important had happened the day before.

Katrina already is measured as one of the worst storms in American history. And yet, President Bush decided that his plans to commemorate the 60th anniversary of VJ Day with a speech were more pressing than responding to the carnage.

A better leader would have flown straight to the disaster zone and announced the immediate mobilization of every available resource to rescue the stranded, find and bury the dead, and keep the survivors fed, clothed, sheltered and free of disease.
nyvector16
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9/7/2005  4:54 PM
The FACT is the woman had him on tape harassing her.
She was about to go public with the tape when O'Reilly settled... and had her sign a non-disclosure agreement of course.
Those are the FACTS... they are what happened... and you can't spin that any other way.
They guy is a pervert. Good for him... it's a free country.
But when you use him as an all credible source... your leaving your arguement wide open with a huge hole called the O'Reilly Factor.
Rich
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9/7/2005  4:57 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/29/AR2005082901445_pf.html

[...]

Which makes it all the more difficult to understand why, at this moment, the country's premier agency for dealing with such events -- FEMA -- is being, in effect, systematically downgraded and all but dismantled by the Department of Homeland Security.

[....]

Indeed, the advent of the Bush administration in January 2001 signaled the beginning of the end for FEMA. The newly appointed leadership of the agency showed little interest in its work or in the missions pursued by the departed Witt. Then came the Sept. 11 attacks and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. Soon FEMA was being absorbed into the "homeland security borg."

This year it was announced that FEMA is to "officially" lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.

FEMA will be survived by state and local emergency management offices, which are confused about how they fit into the national picture.
Knight
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9/7/2005  4:58 PM
Only in charge of an equestrian club? You guys are so bad. Talk about O'Reilly not being objective? Read your own posts!

http://www.fema.gov/about/bios/brown.shtm

Michael D. Brown was nominated by President George W. Bush as the first Under Secretary of Emergency Preparedness and Response in the newly created Department of Homeland Security in January 2003. As the head of Homeland Security's Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), Under Secretary Brown leads federal disaster response and recovery operations and coordinates disaster activities with more than two dozen federal agencies and departments and the American Red Cross. He also oversees the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration, and initiates proactive mitigation activities.

Additionally, Under Secretary Brown helps the Secretary of Homeland Security ensure the effectiveness of emergency responders, and directs the National Incident Management System (NIMS) Integration Center, the National Disaster Medical System and the Nuclear Incident Response Team.

Under Secretary Brown has led Homeland Security’s response to more than 164 presidentially declared disasters and emergencies, including the 2003 Columbia Shuttle disaster and the California wildfires in 2003. In 2004, Mr. Brown led FEMA’s thousands of dedicated disaster workers during the most active hurricane season in over 100 years, as FEMA delivered aid more quickly and more efficiently than ever before.

Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight and as a city councilman.

Mr. Brown was also an adjunct professor of law for the Oklahoma City University.

A native of Oklahoma, Mr. Brown holds a bachelor's degree in Public Administration/Political Science from Central State University, Oklahoma. He received his J.D. from Oklahoma City University’s School of Law.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Rich
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9/7/2005  5:03 PM
That is merely puffery on FEMA's official website. Neither he nor his predecessor were emergency management professionals, like Clinton's FEMA director James Lee Witt. Of equal importance, Bush defunded FEMA

Sorry you were fooled.

[Edited by - Rich on 09-07-2005 5:04 PM]

[Edited by - Rich on 09-07-2005 5:05 PM]
Knight
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9/7/2005  5:06 PM
Posted by Rich:

That is merely puffery on FEMA's official website. Neither he nor his predecessor like Clinton's FEAM director James Lee Witt. Of equal importance, Bush defunded FEMA.

Sorry you were fooled.

His prior experience in disaster relief is "puffery"? That goes down as my Most Ridiculous Item of the Day.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Rich
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9/7/2005  5:08 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Rich:

That is merely puffery on FEMA's official website. Neither he nor his predecessor like Clinton's FEAM director James Lee Witt. Of equal importance, Bush defunded FEMA.

Sorry you were fooled.

His prior experience in disaster relief is "puffery"? That goes down as my Most Ridiculous Item of the Day.

If you think that you haven't read your own posts. Facts, truth, and reality mean nothing to you.
Knight
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9/7/2005  5:09 PM
Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Rich
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9/7/2005  5:13 PM
Posted by Knight:

Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.

I have no agenda, dude, other than to want to find out why the bungling of this disaster needlessly cost so many people their lives.

From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse
Association. If you think that makes him the most qualified man to head FEMA, there is nothing to discuss.
Knight
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9/7/2005  5:15 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Knight:

Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.

I have no agenda, dude, other than to want to find out why the bungling of this disaster needlessly cost so many people their lives.

From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse
Association. If you think that makes him the most qualified man to head FEMA, there is nothing to discuss.

That's all he did? Was that his full-time job? You are under-reporting the facts.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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9/7/2005  5:18 PM
Posted by Knight:

Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.


er, so what are Brown's qualifations with emergency relief prior to FEMA? I didn't get that part from the resume listing.
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martin
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9/7/2005  5:20 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Knight:

Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.

I have no agenda, dude, other than to want to find out why the bungling of this disaster needlessly cost so many people their lives.

From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse
Association. If you think that makes him the most qualified man to head FEMA, there is nothing to discuss.

That's all he did? Was that his full-time job? You are under-reporting the facts.


I think that WAS his full time job for a while. He was also Bush's roomate in college, right? Or was that another appointment?
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Rich
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9/7/2005  5:23 PM
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Knight:

Truth is, you only report the facts that serve your own agenda. I didn't even vote for Bush but I know what fair reporting is.

I have no agenda, dude, other than to want to find out why the bungling of this disaster needlessly cost so many people their lives.

From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse
Association. If you think that makes him the most qualified man to head FEMA, there is nothing to discuss.

That's all he did? Was that his full-time job? You are under-reporting the facts.

That was his full time job until his predecessor (his college roomate), Joe Allbaugh, who wasn't an emergency management professional either, named him as General Counsel of FEMA in 2001. Why isn't that position mentioned on the FEMA website that you linked?

More importantly, as I have posted, even a person with Witt's experience would have been hard pressed to run FEMA efffectively in light of the way Bush eviscerated the agency.
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OT--USA military shouldve helped get the people out of nO BEFORE the fact
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