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TMS
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1/4/2009  10:22 PM
• Keeping 2 unproven players over a Cy Young pitcher in his prime (Johan)
• Relatedly, depending on two unproven kids to comprise 40% of the starting rotation on a $200 mil team
i love how u try & split up 1 move into 2 separate ones... i could probably stretch my list of 48 moves into 90+ using your method.

• Signing Roger to $30 mil for 4 mediocre months
first of all, he was signed for $18.5 million, not 30... everyone in baseball was calling that one a no brainer when it went down, how u gonna second guess it now? did u know Rocket wasn't gonna live up to that contract after having pitched to a 2 ERA in a half season the year before in Houston?

• Carl Pavano $40 mil contract
• $32 mil on Contreras who went 6-16 as a starter
I think the 3rd place finish was a huge wakeup call to him though and Cashman actually decided to pursue top FAs while in their primes.
Pavano wasn't a top FA in his prime when he pursued him? Contreras wasn't the top international FA in his prime on the market when he was signed? those moves didn't work out... fine, it happens to even the best GM in baseball... how u gonna feel if CC & AJB don't work out... how u gonna feel if Mark Tex is a bust in NY? ur gonna hold that against Cashman too?

• $17 mil Kyle Farnsworth
• $21 mil on Jaret Wright
market value contracts given to both guys... Farnsworth was coming off back to back absolutely dominating seasons w/DET & ATL, how can u hold it against Cashman for signing him to that contract to set up for Mo?... $4 mil per over 4 seasons is more than fair value for Farns... & a $21 mil over 3 years deal on Wright was a low risk high possible returns type move, much akin to the Ben Sheets idea that was being tossed around here a couple weeks ago... again, how can u get on Cashman's case for that one? he wasn't being relied upon to be the ace, only to round out the back end of the rotation.

• $32 mil contract extension on Randy Johnson for a 4.50 ERA pitcher who stunk in the playoffs
• Trading Dioner Navarro for the Old Unit
again, u stretch 1 move into 2 separate ones to try & prove ur point... Unit went 5-0 vs. the Red Sox in '05 & was 1 of the main reasons why the Yankees were able to win the division that year... he had back to back 17 win seasons & was a 200+ innings horse for us after we traded for him... how on earth do u call that a failed acquisition? so what that he never fit in to the Yankees' mold all that much or was friendly to the media?... bottomline u got positive production from the guy during his time here... if not performing in the playoffs qualifies someone as a horrible acquisition then u can list almost every major bigname baseball player on the planet on that list.

• $10 mil on Rondell White to be every day outfielder
$5 mil per over 2 seasons for a guy who was coming off 5 consecutive seasons hitting over .300 is what u call a bad move? again, it didn't work out but how can u hold it against Cashman for making it? that is a bargain contract for that level of a player.

• Kenny Lofton signing; can't find contract value.
• Tony Womack signed to be every day 2nd baseman.
• Relying on Bernie to be an everyday CFer when he was way past his prime and was a poor hitter and couldn’t throw better than most HS girls.
Lofton signed for 2 yrs, $6.2 mil... he was brought in as insurance in case Bernie couldn't bounce back from a disappointing injury riddled season the year before, so in fact he WASN'T relying on Bernie to be an everyday CFer like u accuse him of doing... he had a contingency plan in place & executed that plan with a very reasonable contract for a playoffs tested veteran who produced very nicely the year before... Lofton was coming off a year where he batted .296 w/30 SB's for the Pirates & the Cubs... that was an absolute bargain value contract Cashman signed him to... the fact that Torre decided not to play Lofton much is Cashman's fault?... that's pretty funny u'r gonna bring up low cost moves like this to try & prove why Cashman's only an average GM.

& Tony Womack signed a 2 year $4 mil deal... Cashman knew he had Cano in the pipeline to take over at 2B in a year or 2... he didn't wanna sign up some big money FA to play 2B for us & clog up that position... i have no idea how anyone could hold that against Cashman.

Lofton, Womack & Bernie were all a part of the team he put together in '04 that got to the ALCS & were 1 game away from getting to the WS... i thought u considered that a successful season under your stated standards?

• $45 mil on Javy Vaszquez (later paying the D’backs $9 mil of his salary just to take him off our hands)
• $46 mil on Kei Igawa
• Trading Ted Lilly to pick up Jeff Weaver for 4 years @ $22 mil
those 3 are definitely ones i agree with u on & i've been public about criticizing that Javy & Jeff Weaver acquisitions the moment they went down... didn't make an ounce of sense to trade away 2 of your top positional prospects (Nick Johnson & Juan Rivera) or a young talented lefty starter for 2 pitchers w/career ERA's in the 4's & a losing record... Kei Igawa i kept an open mind on especially after Boston had just spent $100 mil to sign up Dice-K but obviously that's another bad move by Cashman there's no getting around that.


on the list i posted earlier i didn't even bother to mention guys like Jon Lieber, Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, Miguel Cairo, Tony Clark, Doug Mientkewicz, all of whom were great value acquisitions in my view... so with your list of maybe 14 separate moves that u didn't like, there's maybe 55 or more moves that i can point out that were positive ones for the Yankees' franchise... i still don't see where these "dozens of moves" are that you were referring to earlier & how u equate 14 to 55+ as balancing out to be average... whatever, if u think he's average u think he's average... i think i've made a pretty good case to most people that have followed this franchise that he's 1 of the best GM's in baseball.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  10:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Ignoring your dependence on hindsight and lack of context for a moment, now list the good moves that Cashman has made to balance those so called "fireable offenses" out. They must have been pretty good considering the success that the Yankees have had over Cashman's tenure.

Some of those I spoke out against in advance; however, hindsight also plays a role in *every* GM's evaluation. Their job (not the fans') is to have foreseight. Here are the ones from TMS's list that I would consider significant sucesses

Roger Clemens (1st stint)
Gary Sheffield
Mike Mussina
Joba Chamberlian
Chien Ming Wang
Alfonso Soriano
Alex Rodrigez

Good acquisitions I'll give him credit for even though the outcome is unknown
Gardner, Hughes, Kennedy, Cano, E Ramirez, Bruney, Aceves, Veras

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.
Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  10:42 PM
i love how u try & split up 1 move into 2 separate ones... i could probably stretch my list of 48 moves into 90+ using your method.
I admitted they're related but they are distinct decisions. Cashman could have gone out and gotten a respectable #4 or 5 starter even if we weren't getting Johan had he not severely misjudged Kennedy's and Hughes's readiness. Then suddenly we might not have had to deal with 16 winless starts. If you want to merge them into one and the Randy decision into one, feel free to. (Trading Navaro for Randy and signing Randy to an extension were listed as SEPARATE transactions on espn, though.)

Regarding stretching lists, I think you put some pretty minor things where guys were mediocre role players or only had brief half season stretches. I could have lengthened my list if I put every remotely bad decision but chose to keep what I thought were the most substantial.

The other decisions--market value is not a fully compelling rationale for an acquisition. It deserves acknowledgement but it's the GM's job to determine which players' current market values are accurate and which are overrated. I'm not saying he should do that with perfection but I also wouldn't expect a top notch GM to have $300 mil backfire in decisions on starting pitchers alone.

Yankee fans were justifiably among the most disatisfied in all of professional sports just a few months ago according to surveys. With his recent spending, Cashman bought another chance from most fans including me. That doesn't mean I forget some of the blatant blunders though.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 10:45 PM]
Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  10:50 PM
Oh and Bernie played FOUR seasons as an everyday CFer when he should have been a DH/PH. The one year we had Lofton doesn't somehow disprove my claim. Jersey Girl at the Zone Forums and I spoke out very often against keeping Bernie in that role.
TMS
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1/4/2009  10:55 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  10:57 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

I said they were not miraculous. How did you twist that into nothing special? I'd put drafting David Lee at #3 in the same classification, for example. Nothing miraculous but still a significant positive impact. Guys who were great for one or two seasons made this not the first list.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 11:01 PM]
islesfan
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1/4/2009  11:00 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

I said they were not miraculous. How did you twist that into nothing special? I'd put drafting David Lee at #3 in the same classification, for example. Nothing miraculous but still a significant positive impact.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 10:58 PM]

Minor Successes = Nothing Special
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  11:02 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

I said they were not miraculous. How did you twist that into nothing special? I'd put drafting David Lee at #3 in the same classification, for example. Nothing miraculous but still a significant positive impact.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 10:58 PM]

Minor Successes = Nothing Special

OK, I guess you two are using the term differently than I used it. Let's call them good but not legendary successes. That clarify things? Or do you want to debate the definition of "is"?
Bonn1997
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1/4/2009  11:06 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

I said they were not miraculous. How did you twist that into nothing special? I'd put drafting David Lee at #3 in the same classification, for example. Nothing miraculous but still a significant positive impact.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 10:58 PM]

Minor Successes = Nothing Special

OK, I guess you two are using the term differently than I used it. Let's call them good but not legendary successes. That clarify things? Or do you want to debate the definition of "is"?
That said, if hypothetically you wanted to move those four players from the good to the outstanding sucess status, the two lists (the great and the awful decisions) still look roughly comparable in size to me and suggest a respectable but not miraculous batting percentage for Cashman.
islesfan
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1/4/2009  11:08 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

Seriously, Bonn has lost any credibility. Sheffield is a significant success and Justice is a minor one? I think he just started watching the Yankees in 2004. His arguments are so twisted it's difficult to even figure out a place to start setting it straight. Kudos to you for even trying.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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1/4/2009  11:13 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

I said they were not miraculous. How did you twist that into nothing special? I'd put drafting David Lee at #3 in the same classification, for example. Nothing miraculous but still a significant positive impact.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 10:58 PM]

Minor Successes = Nothing Special

OK, I guess you two are using the term differently than I used it. Let's call them good but not legendary successes. That clarify things? Or do you want to debate the definition of "is"?
That said, if hypothetically you wanted to move those four players from the good to the outstanding sucess status, the two lists (the great and the awful decisions) still look roughly comparable in size to me and suggest a respectable but not miraculous batting percentage for Cashman.

Your negative list is pretty inclusive while your positive list is far from complete. Combine TMS's list and the positive far outweigh the negative, which of course accounts for the unparalleled success that Cashman has enjoyed as the Yankees GM.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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1/4/2009  11:52 PM
fine, let's play this your way... here's my list of proven major Cashman successes over his tenure... i won't even bother listing all the promising prospects he's restocked the farm system with, since they are still unproven commodities to this point, but the job he's done restocking our farm system w/quality talent even tho the Yankees never have any of the top picks in the draft every year he's been here because of their prolonged stretch of success has been hugely underrated by Yankees' critics... even w/o including those prospects, i really don't see how any fan could dispute the following list of the major acquisitions he's made that have significantly impacted the success of Yankees' franchise over the years he's been here:

Roger Clemens (1st stint)
Gary Sheffield
Mike Mussina
Joba Chamberlain
Chien Ming Wang
Alfonso Soriano
Alex Rodriguez
Robinson Cano
El Duque
Scott Brosius
Chuck Knoblauch
David Justice
Hideki Matsui


here's a list of his major proven blunders:

Javy Vazquez
Jeff Weaver
Kei Igawa
passing on Johan Santana (i'll give u this one even tho u can just as easily make an argument in the other direction)
Carl Pavano (i'll give u this one too even tho he was the consensus top FA pitcher available the year we signed him)
Jose Contreras (i'll give u this one too since he was a disaster for us, even tho i can understand why the Yankees would sign him especially after the phenomenal success that El Duque brought to this franchise)
Roger Clemens (2nd stint) (i'll even give u this one too, even tho that was a no brainer move to make at the time)


that's 14 great major moves vs. 7 horrible ones... now let's consider Theo Epstein's track record, the man that most Cashman critics likely think is the guy they wish were GMing this team over the past several years:

Epstein's top moves as GM:

Dustin Pedroia
Curt Schilling
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell
Bill Mueller
Jonathan Papelbon
Jacoby Ellsbury
David Ortiz
Hideki Okajima

(he does not get credit for Jon Lester or Kevin Youkilis because both were drafted before he was named the GM)

Boy genius' major blunders:

Coco Crisp
Julio Lugo
Edgar Renteria
Eric Gagne
Matt Clement
Byung Hyun Kim (traded Shea Hillenbrand for 1 of the biggest choke artist relievers in post season history)
Doug Mirabelli (traded away 2 promising young prospects Cla Meredith & Josh Bard just so he would have someone to catch Tim Wakefield's knuckleball every 5th day?)
Jeremy Giambi (traded away promising young arm Josh Hancock for a part time player who produced absolutely nothing for the Red Sux, spent time on the DL & was released after that season)
passing on Johan Santana (he coulda easily had him if he were willing to give up Buchholz in the deal & pay him the contract he was looking for)


i can list the not getting back fair value for Man Ram in there too but i'll let him slide on that because it was an untenable situation & his hands were pretty much tied to make a fair & equitable deal (not that u would lend Cashman the same consideration but whatever)

i can also list not getting the A-Rod deal consummated because he was trying to get cute w/the contract situation & he lost out on the best player in the game, but they still won the WS that year anyway & it likely would have led to them trading away Manny that year w/o whom they never do, so he gets a pass for that one.

that's about 9 major successes compared to 9 major blunders & his resume doesn't have the same amount of overall success as Cashman's does... does that make Epstein a below average GM in your eyes under your logic?

[Edited by - TMS on 01-05-2009 03:33 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  7:50 AM
To your list of 7, the following have to be added
-Having Bernie be the everyday CFer for FOUR years beyond his prime, when he was a below average hitter, was slowing down, and couldn't throw better than a girl.
-Jaret Wright
-Kyle Farnsworth

OK, so that's 14 vs. 10. The question now is, what is a reasonable or average percentage to expect from a GM with unprecedented financial resources? This isn't flipping a coin where 50% is the logical answer. I'd say Cash is around 60%; your list puts it at 67%. Is that impressive? A little but it's not astonishing to me.
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  7:52 AM
I've already agreed that Cashman has made a lot of outstanding moves, though. Can I get the three of you (and anyone else who wants to join in) to at least admit that he's made enough blunders (for example, $300 mil on starting pitchers who gave us virtually nothing), that any other team would have fired him by now? Or can you find other examples of GMs in any sport having $300 mil worth of blunders and retaining their jobs?
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  7:58 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

MINOR sucesses...nothing miraculous but still a meaningful positive impact
Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Jason Giambi, El Duque, David Justice, Jeff Nelson, Tanyon Sturtz, Mike Stanton. Maybe you could throw a few more role players in too.

this just proves u'r being irrational... u pointed out 4 acquisitions as nothing special & yet all 4 have contributed significantly to this franchise winning championships... El Duque was probably the most clutch postseason pitcher this franchise has ever seen outside of Mariano & Whitey Ford... Brosius was the WS MVP in '98 & has been responsible for some of the biggest HR's in Yankees' postseason history... Knoblauch was the premier leadoff hitter & 2B in baseball when we got him & along w/those 2 helped this team to 3 consecutive WS titles.

& dude, David Justice? instead of wasting valuable prospects & big money on guys like Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez whose teams were trying to rape us in a deal as usual, Cashman chose to go the more frugal route & got him for freakin' Ricky Ledee & 2 no name minor leaguers... he was probably the single biggest reason for the Yankees even making the postseason in '00 much less winning the WS that year after hitting .305 / 20 HR / 60 RBI down the stretch, he hit the series clinching HR in the ALCS vs. the M's & was part of 2 AL Pennant winning teams.

my God, do u even follow this team or do u just get this stuff off Mets & Red Sox forums?

Seriously, Bonn has lost any credibility. Sheffield is a significant success and Justice is a minor one? I think he just started watching the Yankees in 2004. His arguments are so twisted it's difficult to even figure out a place to start setting it straight. Kudos to you for even trying.
Justice played great for one half season. In order to make my top list, you had to have prolonged success. The next list was for guys with a significant but lesser total positive impact. Gary Sheffield had 2 1/2 very good seasons here. I actually thought he'd been here longer than that when I made the list (around 4 years), but I now would move him from the major to the lower positive list.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-05-2009 08:00 AM]
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  8:01 AM
Where's your list, Isles? You seem to do nothing but criticize others'.
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  8:13 AM
See comments next to your proven major succcess list. Mine are italicized.
Posted by TMS:

fine, let's play this your way... here's my list of proven major Cashman successes over his tenure... i won't even bother listing all the promising prospects he's restocked the farm system with, since they are still unproven commodities to this point, but the job he's done restocking our farm system w/quality talent even tho the Yankees never have any of the top picks in the draft every year he's been here because of their prolonged stretch of success has been hugely underrated by Yankees' critics... even w/o including those prospects, i really don't see how any fan could dispute the following list of the major acquisitions he's made that have significantly impacted the success of Yankees' franchise over the years he's been here:

Roger Clemens (1st stint) Agreed
Gary Sheffield Why is he here? He simply had 2 1/2 solid seasons. That's pretty generous. He's more of a 2nd tier success story to me
Mike Mussina Agreed
Joba Chamberlain Premature IMO. Joba is NOT a proven major success. He's proven to be unhittable and injury prone early in his career. I think he belongs in the list I had of players with great potential but not yet great succeess. [/
Chien Ming Wang Agreed
Alfonso Soriano Agreed
Alex Rodriguez Agreed but I think you and I are in the minority among Yankee fans here
Robinson Cano .800 OPS guy. Definitely a success but he needs some serious improvement for it to be a major success. I'd put him in either the lower success tier or the list I had of players with great potential but not yet great succeess.
El Duque Agreed
Scott Brosius He had great moments in one WS but on the whole, his production was unimpressive--most years his OPS was in the .600s.
Chuck Knoblauch He was a mixture of greatness and disgrace at times. I remember continuous fear every time he had to throw the ball from first to second base. I'd put him in the 2nd tier list
David Justice He was great for half of one season. I'd put him in the 2nd tier list
Hideki Matsui He's been a good player but a disappointment to me. I was expecting more power and better health. I'd put him in the 2nd tier list


here's a list of his major proven blunders:

Javy Vazquez
Jeff Weaver
Kei Igawa
passing on Johan Santana (i'll give u this one even tho u can just as easily make an argument in the other direction)
Carl Pavano (i'll give u this one too even tho he was the consensus top FA pitcher available the year we signed him)
Jose Contreras (i'll give u this one too since he was a disaster for us, even tho i can understand why the Yankees would sign him especially after the phenomenal success that El Duque brought to this franchise)
Roger Clemens (2nd stint) (i'll even give u this one too, even tho that was a no brainer move to make at the time)


that's 14 great major moves vs. 7 horrible ones... now let's consider Theo Epstein's track record, the man that most Cashman critics likely think is the guy they wish were GMing this team over the past several years:

Epstein's top moves as GM:

Dustin Pedroia
Curt Schilling
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell
Bill Mueller
Jonathan Papelbon
Jacoby Ellsbury
David Ortiz
Hideki Okajima

(he does not get credit for Jon Lester or Kevin Youkilis because both were drafted before he was named the GM)

Boy genius' major blunders:

Coco Crisp
Julio Lugo
Edgar Renteria
Eric Gagne
Matt Clement
Byung Hyun Kim (traded Shea Hillenbrand for 1 of the biggest choke artist relievers in post season history)
Doug Mirabelli (traded away 2 promising young prospects Cla Meredith & Josh Bard just so he would have someone to catch Tim Wakefield's knuckleball every 5th day?)
Jeremy Giambi (traded away promising young arm Josh Hancock for a part time player who produced absolutely nothing for the Red Sux, spent time on the DL & was released after that season)
passing on Johan Santana (he coulda easily had him if he were willing to give up Buchholz in the deal & pay him the contract he was looking for)


i can list the not getting back fair value for Man Ram in there too but i'll let him slide on that because it was an untenable situation & his hands were pretty much tied to make a fair & equitable deal (not that u would lend Cashman the same consideration but whatever)

i can also list not getting the A-Rod deal consummated because he was trying to get cute w/the contract situation & he lost out on the best player in the game, but they still won the WS that year anyway & it likely would have led to them trading away Manny that year w/o whom they never do, so he gets a pass for that one.

that's about 9 major successes compared to 9 major blunders & his resume doesn't have the same amount of overall success as Cashman's does... does that make Epstein a below average GM in your eyes under your logic?

[Edited by - TMS on 01-05-2009 03:33 AM]



[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-05-2009 08:16 AM]
TMS
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1/5/2009  10:15 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Gary Sheffield Why is he here? He simply had 2 1/2 solid seasons. That's pretty generous. He's more of a 2nd tier success story to me
Joba Chamberlain Premature IMO. Joba is NOT a proven major success. He's proven to be unhittable and injury prone early in his career. I think he belongs in the list I had of players with great potential but not yet great succeess.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Here are the ones from TMS's list that I would consider significant sucesses

Roger Clemens (1st stint)
Gary Sheffield
Mike Mussina
Joba Chamberlian
Chien Ming Wang
Alfonso Soriano
Alex Rodrigez

dude, u'r all over the place w/ur responses... first u consider these guys as significant success stories on Cashman's resume, then u change ur mind in the next post... a little consistency please?
Posted by Bonn1997:

OK, so that's 14 vs. 10. The question now is, what is a reasonable or average percentage to expect from a GM with unprecedented financial resources? This isn't flipping a coin where 50% is the logical answer. I'd say Cash is around 60%; your list puts it at 67%. Is that impressive? A little but it's not astonishing to me.

using that type of scale no one in baseball will ever live up to your unrealistic standards... what about my question about Theo? do u consider him a below average GM too? what other GM do u think can do a better job than Cashman has & why?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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1/5/2009  10:26 AM
using that type of scale no one in baseball will ever live up to your unrealistic standards
Yet I said that if Cash got Manny, I'd give him an A+ for the off-season. A little consistency on your part please? Your criticisms of me are all over the place and often directly contradicted by my posts.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-05-2009 10:28 AM]
TMS
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1/5/2009  10:33 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Can I get the three of you (and anyone else who wants to join in) to at least admit that he's made enough blunders (for example, $300 mil on starting pitchers who gave us virtually nothing), that any other team would have fired him by now? Or can you find other examples of GMs in any sport having $300 mil worth of blunders and retaining their jobs?

where the hell do u come up with $300 mil worth of blunders??? i can't even answer that question cuz i have no idea what u're even talking about.

i'll tell u this much, there's no other examples of GM's who've had the level of success that Cashman's had & have gotten as much value out of consistently low round draft picks as he has either, in baseball or any other sport.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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