VDesai wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:IMO a big strong dude like Duran that has a little bit of ball skills who can play 25mpg and play next to Towns a bunch is exactly what we need to find for next year along with some better bench help (which might already be on the roster with Pacome and Kolek). Love Mitch but he's not the answer, clearly we need someone who can catch the ball and move it around just a little bit on offense. Maybe we finally get Walker Kessler over here. I think were at the point where you can trade McBride for him if you have to.

It's wild to me that 2 things haven't happened over the years: barely anyone does the alley oop thing to Mitch when he is just right there. And, why does anyone thing Mitch will catch a pass in traffic? Like EVER

I feel like we keep trying to throw him alley oops and they all look bad. I don't know, maybe these are bad passes, but maybe we have to accept that Mitch kind of has bad hands/ball awareness. For as much as he's a beast on the boards, its been a pattern in his career where rebounds slip out of his hands. he misses tips, can't convert alley oops, etc.

I think Mitch did some nice things last night, but Paul Reed gave him fits. Have to admire Reed's hustle and pursuit of the ball. I feel like the board keeps talking about Duren, and Duren had a good stretch of pick and roll, but Reed really hurt us last night and was key to their 4th quarter run after we went up 11 mid way though. Reed was beating us to all the 50/50 balls. 8 rebs in 16 min and he had a pretty massive block on OG.

You right about the bad hands in traffic but the dude can catch decently placed lobs and it feels to me more like guys just don't make the pass. Maybe it is cause he bobbles those too.

I thought Mitch played decent but nowhere near the level he has shown previously. Paul Reed should not be outworking him. I think Mitch just still not at the level he needs to be. 20 games total this year after being more than a year off is not enough, especially after a foot injury where you can't do cardio with the legs on ground.

DLeethal wrote:

VDesai wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:IMO a big strong dude like Duran that has a little bit of ball skills who can play 25mpg and play next to Towns a bunch is exactly what we need to find for next year along with some better bench help (which might already be on the roster with Pacome and Kolek). Love Mitch but he's not the answer, clearly we need someone who can catch the ball and move it around just a little bit on offense. Maybe we finally get Walker Kessler over here. I think were at the point where you can trade McBride for him if you have to.

It's wild to me that 2 things haven't happened over the years: barely anyone does the alley oop thing to Mitch when he is just right there. And, why does anyone thing Mitch will catch a pass in traffic? Like EVER

I feel like we keep trying to throw him alley oops and they all look bad. I don't know, maybe these are bad passes, but maybe we have to accept that Mitch kind of has bad hands/ball awareness. For as much as he's a beast on the boards, its been a pattern in his career where rebounds slip out of his hands. he misses tips, can't convert alley oops, etc.

I think Mitch did some nice things last night, but Paul Reed gave him fits. Have to admire Reed's hustle and pursuit of the ball. I feel like the board keeps talking about Duren, and Duren had a good stretch of pick and roll, but Reed really hurt us last night and was key to their 4th quarter run after we went up 11 mid way though. Reed was beating us to all the 50/50 balls. 8 rebs in 16 min and he had a pretty massive block on OG.

Our bench has some good players but pretty much all of them are just not the right fit. I would even include Deuce in there as a very undersized 2 who cannot run an offense. Shamet is too small for what we need in the wing spot off the bench. Payne is just a vet min journeyman, not the answer as Brunson's backup. Deuce is a good spark plug but not an ideal backup 2 due to his size. Mitch isn't the right guy at the big man spot to play on/off with KAT and blend into both units.

I think moving Hart to the bench next year gets us a legit versatile bench weapon and we start from there. But we pretty much need to address all bench spots next year IMO. Maybe Kolek and Dadiet develop into spots, both have the skillset to replace Payne and Shamet.

As a value concept, I wonder if the Knicks move Deuce if they think Shamet off bench (or something in that vet min space) as a pure movement shooter is a better fit. Lose some obvious PoA defense but his contract value with another player would yield something flavorful.

VDesai wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal in a vacuum is a better player than Donte on both ends, but fit wise I can see how Donte could fit this team better.

Donte is such a dawg - its not really about his skill level, but its about his mentality. He is one of the most fearless/confident players in the league and he backs down from literally nothing and no one. A lot of hustle/grit/toughness that goes with that shooting. That said he also had a pretty good bball IQ and disrupted passing lanes, moved the ball, made good cuts, found good space to shoot etc.

I think there is no doubt that DDV brought the fire but I'm also wondering how much iHart and his relentless picks and defense is missing for the Knicks.

I can't tell but it seems like the Knicks have near zero players who set picks that REALLY free up guys to get looks or get dribble penetration freedom.

Knicks went from iHart, Randle, healthy Mitch to near no one who has those solid capabilities. Seems like a trickle down effect to get the shooters and movers/groovers going.

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:the crazy thing is a Mikal for Donte trade actually would make sense.

MIN could use another consistent scorer and defender who can start next to Ant. DDV off the bench for 25mpg is kind of a waste on that team.

but the Knicks would need more.

Maybe Mcdaniels and DDV for Mikal?

I don't think the trade makes sense for the Wolves TBH. They need another competent playmaker in the backcourt since Conley is cooked. Donte can replicate some of what Conley used to bring, but the defense and playmaking will always be lacking. That issue still persists even if you replace Ragu with Mikal. Plus Mikal upcoming extension. The Wolves have shown themselves to be cheap. Might change with the Arod ownership group taking full control though

DDV isn't really a PG though. They need a PG regardless to replace Conley.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:the crazy thing is a Mikal for Donte trade actually would make sense.

MIN could use another consistent scorer and defender who can start next to Ant. DDV off the bench for 25mpg is kind of a waste on that team.

but the Knicks would need more.

Maybe Mcdaniels and DDV for Mikal?

I don't think the trade makes sense for the Wolves TBH. They need another competent playmaker in the backcourt since Conley is cooked. Donte can replicate some of what Conley used to bring, but the defense and playmaking will always be lacking. That issue still persists even if you replace Ragu with Mikal. Plus Mikal upcoming extension. The Wolves have shown themselves to be cheap. Might change with the Arod ownership group taking full control though

Aren't those 2 guys in completely different roles? DDV's dribbling is in line with like Deuce, not so hot. Maybe I don't know Conley very well but I thought he was a PG.

Yeah, but they've had to push Donte in that role out of desperation. Wolves could use an upgrade at wing, but they still have decent depth there. It's not as big a priority. The elephant in their room is Conley. Get a decent replacement for Conley and all the other pieces fit a bit better. You look at them now and Ant has had to take a huge role setting the offense up and Randle and Donte have had to fill in those loose ends. It's kind of a patchworky offense. I think a Dennis Schroeder type benefits them more than Mikal. They could use a three and D, but they don't NEED it, get what I'm saying. They already have a solid collection of wing defenders. What they need is a solid playmaker.

nycericanguy wrote:

martin wrote:

VDesai wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal in a vacuum is a better player than Donte on both ends, but fit wise I can see how Donte could fit this team better.

Donte is such a dawg - its not really about his skill level, but its about his mentality. He is one of the most fearless/confident players in the league and he backs down from literally nothing and no one. A lot of hustle/grit/toughness that goes with that shooting. That said he also had a pretty good bball IQ and disrupted passing lanes, moved the ball, made good cuts, found good space to shoot etc.

I think there is no doubt that DDV brought the fire but I'm also wondering how much iHart and his relentless picks and defense is missing for the Knicks.

I can't tell but it seems like the Knicks have near zero players who set picks that REALLY free up guys to get looks or get dribble penetration freedom.

Knicks went from iHart, Randle, healthy Mitch to near no one who has those solid capabilities. Seems like a trickle down effect to get the shooters and movers/groovers going.

yea I didnt realize how much we'd miss Ihart TBH.

Ihart + DDV definitely are being missed.

Ihart's decision to leave ultimately led to having to trade DDV, but I think there's a case to be made that last years team was better even if not as talented.

Yeah. Feel like the talent and ceiling are higher with the current crew but the grit and fire definitely with the flex and 50 wins was better last year.

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nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

VDesai wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal in a vacuum is a better player than Donte on both ends, but fit wise I can see how Donte could fit this team better.

Donte is such a dawg - its not really about his skill level, but its about his mentality. He is one of the most fearless/confident players in the league and he backs down from literally nothing and no one. A lot of hustle/grit/toughness that goes with that shooting. That said he also had a pretty good bball IQ and disrupted passing lanes, moved the ball, made good cuts, found good space to shoot etc.

Mikal isn't soft though, just different skillsets

Mikal is definitely soft lol

I think he's quiet, like Allan houston was, but I don't view him as soft. he's not afraid in big moments, not afraid to guard the best opposing player. He's a guy you can trust to make right plays down the stretch.

Randle was a guy that LOOKED tough, but did you trust him guarding the best player? did you trust his mental late in games not to panic and keep his head on straight?

I think Mikal is easily shakeable. He loses his confidence quick and gains it back quick, but it's fickle. He's definitely not a fearless player IMO like Dante. Also, he is allergic to physicality.

I think you are putting many qualities of "being a good basketball player" into the "tough versus soft" conversation. Mikal is a very good basketball player. But he's got a shaky makeup and he's a big reason we are a team that got punked a lot this year by physical teams. Also, he gets cooked all the time nowadays on D and allows teams to put small nothing burger defenders on him and more often than not does not make them pay a big price for it.

I'll disagree on easily shakeable, these have been some real tough hard nosed games and I haven't seen Mikal look shook at all.

Shakeable as in - he misses a few early shots and many times will go invisible for the rest of the game. His confidence IMO, is extremely shakeable and his teammates need to go out of their way to prop him up in the huddle and to the press when he gets down on himself.

- Mitch got worked by P-Reed on board most of the night. He was pushed around and late to almost every board and/or contest
- Start to game was nice -- more tempo which leads to spacing for Kat (blueprint has to be get Kat/OG/Mikal going early if possible)
- Can't believe all the 3's Shroeder is knocking down (looks like Curry out there) and JB let Timmy get going early with some risky/dumb rotations
- We were up 13 at half - came out and immediately stopped running ---- lead vanished in minutes (need to keep pace up)
- Onus on Jalen to push pace, get off the ball, get others going and dominate late in 4th
- Crazy how teams seem to shoot 1,000% off us when down late in games (leading to late comeback after comeback)

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

VDesai wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal in a vacuum is a better player than Donte on both ends, but fit wise I can see how Donte could fit this team better.

Donte is such a dawg - its not really about his skill level, but its about his mentality. He is one of the most fearless/confident players in the league and he backs down from literally nothing and no one. A lot of hustle/grit/toughness that goes with that shooting. That said he also had a pretty good bball IQ and disrupted passing lanes, moved the ball, made good cuts, found good space to shoot etc.

Mikal isn't soft though, just different skillsets

Mikal is definitely soft lol

I think he's quiet, like Allan houston was, but I don't view him as soft. he's not afraid in big moments, not afraid to guard the best opposing player. He's a guy you can trust to make right plays down the stretch.

Randle was a guy that LOOKED tough, but did you trust him guarding the best player? did you trust his mental late in games not to panic and keep his head on straight?

Agreed