Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

We hypothetically could have used Carmelo on the roster...

Yeah but Carmelo wasn’t already on the roster on a cheap rookie scale contract and he’s also 20 years older

Are u suggesting we just let Obi rot on the bench this year just in case Randle, OG, Bogs all went down simultaneously?

Depth matters. It’s a long season and playoffs. Those teams in the 90’s that made runs in the playoffs including nba Finals runs they had depth. We lose Ewing? No problem we got Camby.

Look at you the day after being all hindsight proud of yourself.
So you can reconstruct the whole year and thats what you come up with?
It would serve you well to look at Camby's fragile existence both emotionally and physically after the 99' season.
Might want to read up on his absences in the 2000 season and playoffs.
He over came much of it when he left NY.

Nalod, I'm struggling to understand your point above. I still maintain that we sold low. Obi is an NBA rotation player and we gave him away for the 2 "worst of second round picks" which you can bank on *not* being NBA rotation players.
Obi is the 45th leading scorer in the playoffs, not even considering his minutes. Averaging 11 pts in 19 mins. for what its worth, that's 20pt per 36 mins. Whatever it is, its not worthless. The return we got was worthless.

And no, I don't care if he "asked out"

Your not PhilC are you?
In respect to you I'll address it despite it being discussed ad nauseum.
I don't think your wrong but cannot connect the dots we could not do better, or that Leon took care of Obi and Sam before knicks best interests.
All things being equal, which is impossible to say, nobody gets to reconstruct a whole season of moves which include those made or not made and think Obi would be just sitting there as if one knew the injuries would play out as they did.
Imagine we took DM instead of Frank? Or Hali instead of Obi. You can't say things would be the same except those moves.
Brunson don't come here? Maybe Hali melts in NYC? SO many variable to so many aspects.
Even Obi matters! We don't see so many of the details of deals. WOuld higher 2nds have affected this year? Or a protected 1st for a few years?
Etc etc.......

Gratefully, I'm not PhilC.
The problem with your argument is that you're just basically saying, we can't know, so what the point of discussing.
But discussing is the whole point of this website. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you're here.

Here's a discussion point. Do people actually watch the guy play? He's not a 4 and does not play D. He's a slasher who wants to play like a wing and consistently leaks out on opponent shots. Even SVG noted this on his broadcast. That may be great for the Pacers - especially against a tired & depleted Knicks roster - but generally not what the Knicks nor many other NBA teams have their Power Forwards do. Not sure what people felt he was worth in a trade nor sure how keeping him on the Knicks roster as a contingency to average 12 mpg would have worked. The Knicks showed when at full strength what they were about this season.

Panos wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

We hypothetically could have used Carmelo on the roster...

Yeah but Carmelo wasn’t already on the roster on a cheap rookie scale contract and he’s also 20 years older

Are u suggesting we just let Obi rot on the bench this year just in case Randle, OG, Bogs all went down simultaneously?

Depth matters. It’s a long season and playoffs. Those teams in the 90’s that made runs in the playoffs including nba Finals runs they had depth. We lose Ewing? No problem we got Camby.

Look at you the day after being all hindsight proud of yourself.
So you can reconstruct the whole year and thats what you come up with?
It would serve you well to look at Camby's fragile existence both emotionally and physically after the 99' season.
Might want to read up on his absences in the 2000 season and playoffs.
He over came much of it when he left NY.

Nalod, I'm struggling to understand your point above. I still maintain that we sold low. Obi is an NBA rotation player and we gave him away for the 2 "worst of second round picks" which you can bank on *not* being NBA rotation players.
Obi is the 45th leading scorer in the playoffs, not even considering his minutes. Averaging 11 pts in 19 mins. for what its worth, that's 20pt per 36 mins. Whatever it is, its not worthless. The return we got was worthless.

And no, I don't care if he "asked out"

Your not PhilC are you?
In respect to you I'll address it despite it being discussed ad nauseum.
I don't think your wrong but cannot connect the dots we could not do better, or that Leon took care of Obi and Sam before knicks best interests.
All things being equal, which is impossible to say, nobody gets to reconstruct a whole season of moves which include those made or not made and think Obi would be just sitting there as if one knew the injuries would play out as they did.
Imagine we took DM instead of Frank? Or Hali instead of Obi. You can't say things would be the same except those moves.
Brunson don't come here? Maybe Hali melts in NYC? SO many variable to so many aspects.
Even Obi matters! We don't see so many of the details of deals. WOuld higher 2nds have affected this year? Or a protected 1st for a few years?
Etc etc.......

Gratefully, I'm not PhilC.
The problem with your argument is that you're just basically saying, we can't know, so what the point of discussing.
But discussing is the whole point of this website. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you're here.

Here's a discussion point. Do people actually watch the guy play? He's not a 4 and does not play D. He's a slasher who wants to play like a wing and consistently leaks out on opponent shots. Even SVG noted this on his broadcast. That may be great for the Pacers - especially against a tired & depleted Knicks roster - but generally not what the Knicks nor many other NBA teams have their Power Forwards do. Not sure what people felt he was worth in a trade nor sure how keeping him on the Knicks roster as a contingency to average 12 mpg would have worked. The Knicks showed when at full strength what they were about this season.

Playing against a non-depleted Celtic roster yesterday scored 15 points, 4 RB with a +2 off the bench.

I don't really understand the argument here. Have we forgotten that Obi got into an argument with Thibs over being benched in the playoffs and requested a trade? Is the argument we shouldn't have traded him? That we should have gotten more?

The Knicks put Obi in a good position in Indy. Great roster fit for him. He didn't exactly show out and they got Siakam. There was a world in which I thought Hali would make Obi look like Amare Stoudemire. I still think he has upside there. But I think he will have lapses as well.

I wonder what his career trajectory is if the Knicks move Randle when they drafted Toppin and added a pass-first PG like a Chris Paul.

Regardless, I don't know there is much to discuss about why he was traded. Clear as day.

Panos wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Panos wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

We hypothetically could have used Carmelo on the roster...

Yeah but Carmelo wasn’t already on the roster on a cheap rookie scale contract and he’s also 20 years older

Are u suggesting we just let Obi rot on the bench this year just in case Randle, OG, Bogs all went down simultaneously?

Depth matters. It’s a long season and playoffs. Those teams in the 90’s that made runs in the playoffs including nba Finals runs they had depth. We lose Ewing? No problem we got Camby.

Look at you the day after being all hindsight proud of yourself.
So you can reconstruct the whole year and thats what you come up with?
It would serve you well to look at Camby's fragile existence both emotionally and physically after the 99' season.
Might want to read up on his absences in the 2000 season and playoffs.
He over came much of it when he left NY.

Nalod, I'm struggling to understand your point above. I still maintain that we sold low. Obi is an NBA rotation player and we gave him away for the 2 "worst of second round picks" which you can bank on *not* being NBA rotation players.
Obi is the 45th leading scorer in the playoffs, not even considering his minutes. Averaging 11 pts in 19 mins. for what its worth, that's 20pt per 36 mins. Whatever it is, its not worthless. The return we got was worthless.

And no, I don't care if he "asked out"

Your not PhilC are you?
In respect to you I'll address it despite it being discussed ad nauseum.
I don't think your wrong but cannot connect the dots we could not do better, or that Leon took care of Obi and Sam before knicks best interests.
All things being equal, which is impossible to say, nobody gets to reconstruct a whole season of moves which include those made or not made and think Obi would be just sitting there as if one knew the injuries would play out as they did.
Imagine we took DM instead of Frank? Or Hali instead of Obi. You can't say things would be the same except those moves.
Brunson don't come here? Maybe Hali melts in NYC? SO many variable to so many aspects.
Even Obi matters! We don't see so many of the details of deals. WOuld higher 2nds have affected this year? Or a protected 1st for a few years?
Etc etc.......

Gratefully, I'm not PhilC.
The problem with your argument is that you're just basically saying, we can't know, so what the point of discussing.
But discussing is the whole point of this website. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you're here.

Here's a discussion point. Do people actually watch the guy play? He's not a 4 and does not play D. He's a slasher who wants to play like a wing and consistently leaks out on opponent shots. Even SVG noted this on his broadcast. That may be great for the Pacers - especially against a tired & depleted Knicks roster - but generally not what the Knicks nor many other NBA teams have their Power Forwards do. Not sure what people felt he was worth in a trade nor sure how keeping him on the Knicks roster as a contingency to average 12 mpg would have worked. The Knicks showed when at full strength what they were about this season.

Playing against a non-depleted Celtic roster yesterday scored 15 points, 4 RB with a +2 off the bench.

I don't really understand the argument here. Have we forgotten that Obi got into an argument with Thibs over being benched in the playoffs and requested a trade? Is the argument we shouldn't have traded him? That we should have gotten more?

The Knicks put Obi in a good position in Indy. Great roster fit for him. He didn't exactly show out and they got Siakam. There was a world in which I thought Hali would make Obi look like Amare Stoudemire. I still think he has upside there. But I think he will have lapses as well.

I wonder what his career trajectory is if the Knicks move Randle when they drafted Toppin and added a pass-first PG like a Chris Paul.

Regardless, I don't know there is much to discuss about why he was traded. Clear as day.

The argument is basically that we got jobbed on the trade. Clearly the guy is not worthless, which is what we got. Players are not worthless because they argue with a coach or ask for a trade. That is nonsensical. Players ask out all the time.

I hear you. A couple things to recall though. 1) Teams were paying to clear cap at the time this trade was made. So Indiana could have received a second round pick or two just to take on a contract into the cap space 2) We traded the last year of a rookie scale contract for 2 second round picks. 2nd rounds do appear to be garnishing more and more value than they did 10 years ago. They are distant (2028, 2029) but that might make them more valuable instead of less. 3) Unclear whether we were going to match any RFA offers for Toppin this offseason. There is a percentage chance we would have lost the ObiOne for nothing. 4) The cap space achieved was instrumental in allowing us to use the MLE on Donte while staying below the hard cap and maintaining financial flexibility. We also still have a traded player exception. That expires in July. But before we know exactly what we got for Toppin, that TPE either is going to be used or expire. So, technically, we don't know actually know what we traded him for.

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Panos wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Panos wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

We hypothetically could have used Carmelo on the roster...

Yeah but Carmelo wasn’t already on the roster on a cheap rookie scale contract and he’s also 20 years older

Are u suggesting we just let Obi rot on the bench this year just in case Randle, OG, Bogs all went down simultaneously?

Depth matters. It’s a long season and playoffs. Those teams in the 90’s that made runs in the playoffs including nba Finals runs they had depth. We lose Ewing? No problem we got Camby.

Look at you the day after being all hindsight proud of yourself.
So you can reconstruct the whole year and thats what you come up with?
It would serve you well to look at Camby's fragile existence both emotionally and physically after the 99' season.
Might want to read up on his absences in the 2000 season and playoffs.
He over came much of it when he left NY.

Nalod, I'm struggling to understand your point above. I still maintain that we sold low. Obi is an NBA rotation player and we gave him away for the 2 "worst of second round picks" which you can bank on *not* being NBA rotation players.
Obi is the 45th leading scorer in the playoffs, not even considering his minutes. Averaging 11 pts in 19 mins. for what its worth, that's 20pt per 36 mins. Whatever it is, its not worthless. The return we got was worthless.

And no, I don't care if he "asked out"

Your not PhilC are you?
In respect to you I'll address it despite it being discussed ad nauseum.
I don't think your wrong but cannot connect the dots we could not do better, or that Leon took care of Obi and Sam before knicks best interests.
All things being equal, which is impossible to say, nobody gets to reconstruct a whole season of moves which include those made or not made and think Obi would be just sitting there as if one knew the injuries would play out as they did.
Imagine we took DM instead of Frank? Or Hali instead of Obi. You can't say things would be the same except those moves.
Brunson don't come here? Maybe Hali melts in NYC? SO many variable to so many aspects.
Even Obi matters! We don't see so many of the details of deals. WOuld higher 2nds have affected this year? Or a protected 1st for a few years?
Etc etc.......

Gratefully, I'm not PhilC.
The problem with your argument is that you're just basically saying, we can't know, so what the point of discussing.
But discussing is the whole point of this website. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you're here.

Here's a discussion point. Do people actually watch the guy play? He's not a 4 and does not play D. He's a slasher who wants to play like a wing and consistently leaks out on opponent shots. Even SVG noted this on his broadcast. That may be great for the Pacers - especially against a tired & depleted Knicks roster - but generally not what the Knicks nor many other NBA teams have their Power Forwards do. Not sure what people felt he was worth in a trade nor sure how keeping him on the Knicks roster as a contingency to average 12 mpg would have worked. The Knicks showed when at full strength what they were about this season.

Playing against a non-depleted Celtic roster yesterday scored 15 points, 4 RB with a +2 off the bench.

I don't really understand the argument here. Have we forgotten that Obi got into an argument with Thibs over being benched in the playoffs and requested a trade? Is the argument we shouldn't have traded him? That we should have gotten more?

The Knicks put Obi in a good position in Indy. Great roster fit for him. He didn't exactly show out and they got Siakam. There was a world in which I thought Hali would make Obi look like Amare Stoudemire. I still think he has upside there. But I think he will have lapses as well.

I wonder what his career trajectory is if the Knicks move Randle when they drafted Toppin and added a pass-first PG like a Chris Paul.

Regardless, I don't know there is much to discuss about why he was traded. Clear as day.

The argument is basically that we got jobbed on the trade. Clearly the guy is not worthless, which is what we got. Players are not worthless because they argue with a coach or ask for a trade. That is nonsensical. Players ask out all the time.

I hear you. A couple things to recall though. 1) Teams were paying to clear cap at the time this trade was made. So Indiana could have received a second round pick or two just to take on a contract into the cap space 2) We traded the last year of a rookie scale contract for 2 second round picks. 2nd rounds do appear to be garnishing more and more value than they did 10 years ago. They are distant (2028, 2029) but that might make them more valuable instead of less. 3) Unclear whether we were going to match any RFA offers for Toppin this offseason. There is a percentage chance we would have lost the ObiOne for nothing. 4) The cap space achieved was instrumental in allowing us to use the MLE on Donte while staying below the hard cap and maintaining financial flexibility. We also still have a traded player exception. That expires in July. But before we know exactly what we got for Toppin, that TPE either is going to be used or expire. So, technically, we don't know actually know what we traded him for.

Also, the Knicks and Pacers were in talks for several months. I'm pretty sure the Knicks put their feelers out to determine Obi's value and the going rate for second draft guys at the time was 1) a highly protected first or two seconds (see trash Can Reddish). The market set Obi's value. If you want to argue that the Knicks should've tried to trade Obi earlier when his value might have been higher (not sure when that time ever existed) or should've given him more playing time to build his value, that's fair. But he obviously wasn't a fit in Thibs system and this is a guy who lost the starting PF spot to Nesmith at one point. Not worth losing sleep over a situational role player. I'd rather have Precious.

I feel like when you say Precious you have to say "My Precious" so I hear it like Golem

Would have preferred moving him to a Pistons, Charlotte or a western team. Only hurts because we missed on Haliburton, Vessel, Maxey, Bane for a for someone that yielded nothing.

martin wrote:

MS wrote:The only question was are second rounders worth putting a guy into a perfect situation where he can hurt you? This was the perfect team for Obi and he’s been impressive in the playoffs.

Would have preferred moving him to a Pistons, Charlotte or a western team. Only hurts because we missed on Haliburton, Vessel, Maxey, Bane for a for someone that yielded nothing.

Yes, yes they were. Because karma is a bitch but sometimes she smiles at you so you give one up for the gods to give you Lady Luck who smiles back at you with her cleavage, and because you have enough confidence to know a team that relies on Obi to be a significant player will be nothing to worry about.

Booya

And you don’t cry over the exes you have moved on from, that’s sloppy

well said. :-)

also i don't think it's bad doing an ex player a solid for the karma reasons you state

Panos wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

We hypothetically could have used Carmelo on the roster...

Yeah but Carmelo wasn’t already on the roster on a cheap rookie scale contract and he’s also 20 years older

Are u suggesting we just let Obi rot on the bench this year just in case Randle, OG, Bogs all went down simultaneously?

Depth matters. It’s a long season and playoffs. Those teams in the 90’s that made runs in the playoffs including nba Finals runs they had depth. We lose Ewing? No problem we got Camby.

Look at you the day after being all hindsight proud of yourself.
So you can reconstruct the whole year and thats what you come up with?
It would serve you well to look at Camby's fragile existence both emotionally and physically after the 99' season.
Might want to read up on his absences in the 2000 season and playoffs.
He over came much of it when he left NY.

Nalod, I'm struggling to understand your point above. I still maintain that we sold low. Obi is an NBA rotation player and we gave him away for the 2 "worst of second round picks" which you can bank on *not* being NBA rotation players.
Obi is the 45th leading scorer in the playoffs, not even considering his minutes. Averaging 11 pts in 19 mins. for what its worth, that's 20pt per 36 mins. Whatever it is, its not worthless. The return we got was worthless.

And no, I don't care if he "asked out"

Your not PhilC are you?
In respect to you I'll address it despite it being discussed ad nauseum.
I don't think your wrong but cannot connect the dots we could not do better, or that Leon took care of Obi and Sam before knicks best interests.
All things being equal, which is impossible to say, nobody gets to reconstruct a whole season of moves which include those made or not made and think Obi would be just sitting there as if one knew the injuries would play out as they did.
Imagine we took DM instead of Frank? Or Hali instead of Obi. You can't say things would be the same except those moves.
Brunson don't come here? Maybe Hali melts in NYC? SO many variable to so many aspects.
Even Obi matters! We don't see so many of the details of deals. WOuld higher 2nds have affected this year? Or a protected 1st for a few years?
Etc etc.......

Gratefully, I'm not PhilC.
The problem with your argument is that you're just basically saying, we can't know, so what the point of discussing.
But discussing is the whole point of this website. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you're here.

Here's a discussion point. Do people actually watch the guy play? He's not a 4 and does not play D. He's a slasher who wants to play like a wing and consistently leaks out on opponent shots. Even SVG noted this on his broadcast. That may be great for the Pacers - especially against a tired & depleted Knicks roster - but generally not what the Knicks nor many other NBA teams have their Power Forwards do. Not sure what people felt he was worth in a trade nor sure how keeping him on the Knicks roster as a contingency to average 12 mpg would have worked. The Knicks showed when at full strength what they were about this season.

Playing against a non-depleted Celtic roster yesterday scored 15 points, 4 RB with a +2 off the bench.

Indiana averaged 123 points per game. 115 in the playoffs. And lead the league in Pace. No one on that team is capable if scoring 25-30 points a game so they all have to score. Obi on a normal team isn't scoring that much.

jaydh wrote:Obi did score like that on our team.

If the front office knew how close we were to winning this yr, I doubt they give up Obi for 2 2nds. But, how could they have known? So, therefore, they got value instead of nothing. I don't fault them. This move just got exposed by the injuries.

He had a couple slumps in year 3 but you are right he was a pretty good scorer in less then ideal conditions. He's a good offensive player. He has some flaws I don't see going away. He's has gotten a lot better defending one on one and even gets over some screens now. He is terrible in drop and in a lot of help situations. I think it similar to his air ball problem. I think he shot 40% from 3 every month his year. He still had BY FAR the most air balls. It usually when he isn't sure if its a good shot. When he is unsure he is tentative and does things like miss a shot he can make by 4 feet. You see it with lose balls too. If Obi is not sure he'll look like he is running away from and too the ball at the same time. When he is unsure he doesn't commit.