gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:. The US is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect but it gives you great opportunity. Gives you many great, safe and beautiful areas to bring up your family. Sorry it was not for you. Wish you and your family the best.

Have you lived in other countries?

Studied and played in Spain and Italy. Have family in Norway.
Great and beautiful countries. But once you have lived here and grown accustomed to what the US offers and it's culture, those countries fall short for me. Of course that is my personal opinion based on my experiences.

Where have you lived?

I have lived in China for 20+ years. A lot of Chinese also love their country and think it's the best. I'm sure that's true for many people around the world. "Suburban" America is awesome- big houses, swimming pools, boating, the list goes on. I have met a couple of people in China in the .1% and they don't live as well as the 1% in America., just because they don't have so many options for spending money. The flip side is all the people nodding off from fentanyl in public or geeking out on tranq. This summer was my first time back in four years and in every city I visited (NYC, St. Louis, Memphis, Syracuse) my friends and family told me about how dangerous the city was.

martin has made some good points about Joe- I always liked him. My opinion is that regardless of record he will look old on the debate stage next to Trump and lose the election.

Once again, hard to have a conversation with someone who has the notion a free country can be compared to a communist dictatorship. Referring to the bold in which it seems you are comparing Americans perception to that of the Chinese.

In terms of your reference to the worst of America, drug problems are an issue all over the world. And yes, every country has pockets of poverty and misery. As did every civilization in recorded history. The US is far from perfect. Has millions off people that often act like *******s, terrible gun laws, sleezy politicians, high cost cities, expensive healthcare and many inequalities. The difference in America is that those wishing to pull themselves out of tough situations have the ability to do so. Through education and proper living. Additionally, the support given is not laced with communistic demands. Nor by giving up basic liberties. But again, hard to discuss advantages with those that suggest a communist dictatorship is comparable to a Democracy. As I mentioned to Ramtour, it's like comparing lack of benefits received for those in a poor suburb in Kentucky to those received by someone in a federal penitentiary.

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:. The US is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect but it gives you great opportunity. Gives you many great, safe and beautiful areas to bring up your family. Sorry it was not for you. Wish you and your family the best.

Have you lived in other countries?

Studied and played in Spain and Italy. Have family in Norway.
Great and beautiful countries. But once you have lived here and grown accustomed to what the US offers and it's culture, those countries fall short for me. Of course that is my personal opinion based on my experiences.

Where have you lived?

I have lived in China for 20+ years. A lot of Chinese also love their country and think it's the best. I'm sure that's true for many people around the world. "Suburban" America is awesome- big houses, swimming pools, boating, the list goes on. I have met a couple of people in China in the .1% and they don't live as well as the 1% in America., just because they don't have so many options for spending money. The flip side is all the people nodding off from fentanyl in public or geeking out on tranq. This summer was my first time back in four years and in every city I visited (NYC, St. Louis, Memphis, Syracuse) my friends and family told me about how dangerous the city was.

martin has made some good points about Joe- I always liked him. My opinion is that regardless of record he will look old on the debate stage next to Trump and lose the election.

Once again, hard to have a conversation with someone who has the notion a free country can be compared to a communist dictatorship. Referring to the bold in which it seems you are comparing Americans perception to that of the Chinese.

In terms of your reference to the worst of America, drug problems are an issue all over the world. And yes, every country has pockets of poverty and misery. As did every civilization in recorded history. The US is far from perfect. Has millions off people that often act like *******s, terrible gun laws, sleezy politicians, high cost cities, expensive healthcare and many inequalities. The difference in America is that those wishing to pull themselves out of tough situations have the ability to do so. Through education and proper living. Additionally, the support given is not laced with communistic demands. Nor by giving up basic liberties. But again, hard to discuss advantages with those that suggest a communist dictatorship is comparable to a Democracy. As I mentioned to Ramtour, it's like comparing lack of benefits received for those in a poor suburb in Kentucky to those received by someone in a federal penitentiary.

Lots of love for the other guy who has been on team Randle since day one but a lot of what you say here is wrong. Has any government ever had as good a run of China from 1973-2023? China had a billion dirt poor people and now a billion in the middle class. Really hard to quantify the benefit to human happiness of lifting so many people out of poverty.

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:. The US is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect but it gives you great opportunity. Gives you many great, safe and beautiful areas to bring up your family. Sorry it was not for you. Wish you and your family the best.

Have you lived in other countries?

Studied and played in Spain and Italy. Have family in Norway.
Great and beautiful countries. But once you have lived here and grown accustomed to what the US offers and it's culture, those countries fall short for me. Of course that is my personal opinion based on my experiences.

Where have you lived?

I have lived in China for 20+ years. A lot of Chinese also love their country and think it's the best. I'm sure that's true for many people around the world. "Suburban" America is awesome- big houses, swimming pools, boating, the list goes on. I have met a couple of people in China in the .1% and they don't live as well as the 1% in America., just because they don't have so many options for spending money. The flip side is all the people nodding off from fentanyl in public or geeking out on tranq. This summer was my first time back in four years and in every city I visited (NYC, St. Louis, Memphis, Syracuse) my friends and family told me about how dangerous the city was.

martin has made some good points about Joe- I always liked him. My opinion is that regardless of record he will look old on the debate stage next to Trump and lose the election.

Once again, hard to have a conversation with someone who has the notion a free country can be compared to a communist dictatorship. Referring to the bold in which it seems you are comparing Americans perception to that of the Chinese.

In terms of your reference to the worst of America, drug problems are an issue all over the world. And yes, every country has pockets of poverty and misery. As did every civilization in recorded history. The US is far from perfect. Has millions off people that often act like *******s, terrible gun laws, sleezy politicians, high cost cities, expensive healthcare and many inequalities. The difference in America is that those wishing to pull themselves out of tough situations have the ability to do so. Through education and proper living. Additionally, the support given is not laced with communistic demands. Nor by giving up basic liberties. But again, hard to discuss advantages with those that suggest a communist dictatorship is comparable to a Democracy. As I mentioned to Ramtour, it's like comparing lack of benefits received for those in a poor suburb in Kentucky to those received by someone in a federal penitentiary.

Lots of love for the other guy who has been on team Randle since day one but a lot of what you say here is wrong. Has any government ever had as good a run of China from 1973-2023? China had a billion dirt poor people and now a billion in the middle class. Really hard to quantify the benefit to human happiness of lifting so many people out of poverty.

Hell of run. Did it come at a price? Of course.
Our history too has some very unfortunate "runs" as well. Slavery, institutional racism, and gynecide of the indigenous American Indian.
The notion of "whose better" is comical.
No doubt Chinese nationals have many who are proud of their country and its culture. Friends of mine who frequent the interior on business noticed more "flags" on private homes and small business in the few years before covid. Nothing wrong with nationalistic pride.
In america we perverted "patriotism" when MAGA fans use it to defend its stance. Not the first time in our history that has happend.
Trump made good when he hugged the flag and his constituency ate it up. My mom loved this country and talked about pride of her brother serving in WW2. but he did not fight to keep America for americans. he did not fight to stifle freedoms MAGA heads want to do in the name of being a "patriot".

"for freedom and justice for all". They fought Nazis. Not celebrated them. They fought fascists. Not for trump so he can emulate their tactics.

Oh, by the way, universal healthcare comes with a price. Americans don't want to be told what to do. They don't want to buy health insurance. Of the half million who went to bankruptcy over medical costs in many cases refused to buy it. Im not saying its right, or their fault even if affordable. Some are truely victim of circumstances. Others were proud of there defiance.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/31/opinion/ramaswamy-political-ignorance.html?unlocked_article_code=_XKdHcv-cKxg5U_K-kdx_uAGqmvczt5cq-Zo1tIWA4rFz7LgRjP6cc4gAZqNOB7kBZfFpXWOnsV_kjHougX2rKZicmyxTwXL8TjzQybgSCGAyX8gz2HMQehwIyHaIR3HXfxq9MBh7AbnMqJ7U7hkwKzIpvuEqeTKhAXbC7MRLB5go1R6dNRL6T9byoA0juz9dzww3OUg-BdXCcUXV_G_-zrPCjYhVhf2N0R4C3cSEkCt12lNbdMEDf3SkyYS7aJz6SFwXQjenXNZzJpzPbElAnGNmytMP1TDkAD5BD_cVe1pVwICS1Uwg7XzCwVvfFmQldZRQFMXEdu_avi-re84rWVMaSeCKZQ&smid=url-share

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:. The US is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect but it gives you great opportunity. Gives you many great, safe and beautiful areas to bring up your family. Sorry it was not for you. Wish you and your family the best.

Have you lived in other countries?

Studied and played in Spain and Italy. Have family in Norway.
Great and beautiful countries. But once you have lived here and grown accustomed to what the US offers and it's culture, those countries fall short for me. Of course that is my personal opinion based on my experiences.

Where have you lived?

I have lived in China for 20+ years. A lot of Chinese also love their country and think it's the best. I'm sure that's true for many people around the world. "Suburban" America is awesome- big houses, swimming pools, boating, the list goes on. I have met a couple of people in China in the .1% and they don't live as well as the 1% in America., just because they don't have so many options for spending money. The flip side is all the people nodding off from fentanyl in public or geeking out on tranq. This summer was my first time back in four years and in every city I visited (NYC, St. Louis, Memphis, Syracuse) my friends and family told me about how dangerous the city was.

martin has made some good points about Joe- I always liked him. My opinion is that regardless of record he will look old on the debate stage next to Trump and lose the election.

Once again, hard to have a conversation with someone who has the notion a free country can be compared to a communist dictatorship. Referring to the bold in which it seems you are comparing Americans perception to that of the Chinese.

In terms of your reference to the worst of America, drug problems are an issue all over the world. And yes, every country has pockets of poverty and misery. As did every civilization in recorded history. The US is far from perfect. Has millions off people that often act like *******s, terrible gun laws, sleezy politicians, high cost cities, expensive healthcare and many inequalities. The difference in America is that those wishing to pull themselves out of tough situations have the ability to do so. Through education and proper living. Additionally, the support given is not laced with communistic demands. Nor by giving up basic liberties. But again, hard to discuss advantages with those that suggest a communist dictatorship is comparable to a Democracy. As I mentioned to Ramtour, it's like comparing lack of benefits received for those in a poor suburb in Kentucky to those received by someone in a federal penitentiary.

Lots of love for the other guy who has been on team Randle since day one but a lot of what you say here is wrong. Has any government ever had as good a run of China from 1973-2023? China had a billion dirt poor people and now a billion in the middle class. Really hard to quantify the benefit to human happiness of lifting so many people out of poverty.

Who likes Randle? 😂

Definitely a great thing regarding lifting people from poverty. If true.
Think we can compare Woodhaven Queens to really advanced parts of China all day. But it still leaves out most important quality. Which I am advocating. Democracy. Form of government that has formed some of the best countries in the world. Russia, North Korea and China is riddled with stories of those persecuted by government and stripped of basic human freedoms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-econ-prof-08312023153953.html/ampRFA
https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/11/china-secret-black-jails-hide-severe-rights-abuses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100216432
https://www.npr.org/2012/11/01/163949720/for-complainers-a-stint-in-chinas-black-jails
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-65229269.amp
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917

Not sure if you are allowed to click on those links?

ramtour420 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:. The US is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect but it gives you great opportunity. Gives you many great, safe and beautiful areas to bring up your family. Sorry it was not for you. Wish you and your family the best.

Have you lived in other countries?

Studied and played in Spain and Italy. Have family in Norway.
Great and beautiful countries. But once you have lived here and grown accustomed to what the US offers and it's culture, those countries fall short for me. Of course that is my personal opinion based on my experiences.

Where have you lived?

I have lived in China for 20+ years. A lot of Chinese also love their country and think it's the best. I'm sure that's true for many people around the world. "Suburban" America is awesome- big houses, swimming pools, boating, the list goes on. I have met a couple of people in China in the .1% and they don't live as well as the 1% in America., just because they don't have so many options for spending money. The flip side is all the people nodding off from fentanyl in public or geeking out on tranq. This summer was my first time back in four years and in every city I visited (NYC, St. Louis, Memphis, Syracuse) my friends and family told me about how dangerous the city was.

martin has made some good points about Joe- I always liked him. My opinion is that regardless of record he will look old on the debate stage next to Trump and lose the election.

Once again, hard to have a conversation with someone who has the notion a free country can be compared to a communist dictatorship. Referring to the bold in which it seems you are comparing Americans perception to that of the Chinese.

In terms of your reference to the worst of America, drug problems are an issue all over the world. And yes, every country has pockets of poverty and misery. As did every civilization in recorded history. The US is far from perfect. Has millions off people that often act like *******s, terrible gun laws, sleezy politicians, high cost cities, expensive healthcare and many inequalities. The difference in America is that those wishing to pull themselves out of tough situations have the ability to do so. Through education and proper living. Additionally, the support given is not laced with communistic demands. Nor by giving up basic liberties. But again, hard to discuss advantages with those that suggest a communist dictatorship is comparable to a Democracy. As I mentioned to Ramtour, it's like comparing lack of benefits received for those in a poor suburb in Kentucky to those received by someone in a federal penitentiary.

Lots of love for the other guy who has been on team Randle since day one but a lot of what you say here is wrong. Has any government ever had as good a run of China from 1973-2023? China had a billion dirt poor people and now a billion in the middle class. Really hard to quantify the benefit to human happiness of lifting so many people out of poverty.

Who likes Randle? 😂

Definitely a great thing regarding lifting people from poverty. If true.
Think we can compare Woodhaven Queens to really advanced parts of China all day. But it still leaves out most important quality. Which I am advocating. Democracy. Form of government that has formed some of the best countries in the world. Russia, North Korea and China is riddled with stories of those persecuted by government and stripped of basic human freedoms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-econ-prof-08312023153953.html/ampRFA
https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/11/china-secret-black-jails-hide-severe-rights-abuses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100216432
https://www.npr.org/2012/11/01/163949720/for-complainers-a-stint-in-chinas-black-jails
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-65229269.amp
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917

Not sure if you are allowed to click on those links?

Your freedom argument is empty as they come. The word is pretty but it's bs. Let me give you one example( there are many more, if need be I will voice then as well)of freedom more available in Russia than in US. My aunt works in a bank in NY. During covid she was forced to take a vaccine or resign. Oh what beautiful freedom that is. There was no mandatory vaccination in Russia. The sweet taste of American freedom . When it comes to corporate interests your freedom is waived. Freedom of speech? Julian Assange would say otherwise. Look, enjoy your freedom while you can. It's not in any way shape or form an illusion. Of course not. Once you realize otherwise things change. Ignorance is bliss

My counter story to argue the strong example of documented atrocities here in the US, which you provided......
My dogs former owner who has a grandmother in Russia who employed a girl to pick up her bread and water knew another girl who's father spoke out against the government/Puttin and presented three clear cases of men being murdered in order to keep them quite about said improprieties, was jailed and is has been waiting for a fair trial for over 10 years. .

Assuming that you are not allowed to click on any of the links I provided. Understandable.
They probably pale in comparison to a PRIVATE bank telling an employee, who deals directly with the public, that she has to abide by their company policy on dealing with an epidemic.
You do realize banks are private here? You must have us confused with Russia.

HofstraBBall wrote:
Who likes Randle? 😂

Definitely a great thing regarding lifting people from poverty. If true.
Think we can compare Woodhaven Queens to really advanced parts of China all day. But it still leaves out most important quality. Which I am advocating. Democracy. Form of government that has formed some of the best countries in the world. Russia, North Korea and China is riddled with stories of those persecuted by government and stripped of basic human freedoms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-econ-prof-08312023153953.html/ampRFA
https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/11/china-secret-black-jails-hide-severe-rights-abuses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100216432
https://www.npr.org/2012/11/01/163949720/for-complainers-a-stint-in-chinas-black-jails
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-65229269.amp
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917

Not sure if you are allowed to click on those links?

I thought you did! I remember last summer you coming around to the "we shouldn't trade Randle for peanuts" side of the debate, but I could be wrong.

I was able to read those articles. Sad stuff. Definitely true that publishing information counter the government's wishes is dangerous. Now we get into the what aboutism of the debate- which is kind of the point. Different strokes for different folks. Ramtour seems happy in Russia, I'm happy in China. I'm just very leery of any argument claiming one country as "the best" since so much is different and a lot comes down to personal opinion.

*** The one article that seemed suspicious was the "black jail" in a park. Most apartments and office complexes are surrounded by a wall to keep out unwanted visitors. It seems unlikely that people would be detained in a building public park.

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
Who likes Randle? 😂

Definitely a great thing regarding lifting people from poverty. If true.
Think we can compare Woodhaven Queens to really advanced parts of China all day. But it still leaves out most important quality. Which I am advocating. Democracy. Form of government that has formed some of the best countries in the world. Russia, North Korea and China is riddled with stories of those persecuted by government and stripped of basic human freedoms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-econ-prof-08312023153953.html/ampRFA
https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/11/china-secret-black-jails-hide-severe-rights-abuses
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100216432
https://www.npr.org/2012/11/01/163949720/for-complainers-a-stint-in-chinas-black-jails
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-65229269.amp
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-is-now-sending-twitter-users-to-prison-for-posts-most-chinese-cant-see-11611932917

Not sure if you are allowed to click on those links?

I thought you did! I remember last summer you coming around to the "we shouldn't trade Randle for peanuts" side of the debate, but I could be wrong.

I was able to read those articles. Sad stuff. Definitely true that publishing information counter the government's wishes is dangerous. Now we get into the what aboutism of the debate- which is kind of the point. Different strokes for different folks. Ramtour seems happy in Russia, I'm happy in China. I'm just very leery of any argument claiming one country as "the best" since so much is different and a lot comes down to personal opinion.

*** The one article that seemed suspicious was the "black jail" in a park. Most apartments and office complexes are surrounded by a wall to keep out unwanted visitors. It seems unlikely that people would be detained in a building public park.

Was not only on that side but built it from the ground.

My comment as "best" was followed by statement "based on my experiences". However, hard to phantom anyone advocating a communist way of life.

But like you said, as long as you are happy, despite the vail, that is all that matters. Hope the best for you and your family.