martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:Now when Thibs won COTY and embarrassed himself in the playoffs against the Hawks. I said “fire him” and he clearly wasn’t

LOL yeah but what kind of nonesense is firing a coach after a year when he gets COTY and is then defeated in a playoff series against a team that was clearly dominant?

That's just not reality. I don't know what kind of expectation world that is. That's whack man

His coaching during the hawks series was deplorable. For a veteran coach who had just won coty the team was clearly unable to adapt to Randle being doubled team and he didn’t adapt the whole series to Trae being hid on Bullock defensively.

It was so bad I wanted him fired then, and honestly it’s one of the reasons why while I don’t expect or even hope for a tank. I also don’t think this team could get past the first round again and player wise it is more talented than that 2019 team.

RJ is struggling as a starter next to two ball dominant left handers and Thibs has yet to try RJ playing heavy with the bench unit and trying to put better shooters in Fournier, Reddish, and Grimes around Brunson and Randle to see if it could work.

Thibs is bad at his job because he’s too arrogant. If anything the COTY set him up to fail because it’s clear it’s made him feel justified to be set in his ways. Meanwhile his relationship to Leon also has it that he acts like he doesn’t work for him. That whole Begley report on Leon is fiercely loyal to Thibs is nonsense and another reason Thibs needs to go. Leon can’t think straight and act like a POBO with one of his best friends in the role as coach.

Well, you don't operate in NBA reality. It's a nice sentiment to have as a fan but that's it.

Thibs got the last 2 years of his contract guaranteed after that series, for what it's worth. All teams would have been head over heels even with the failures of the Atlanta match.

Fucking COTY in his first year after taking over a 20 win team with the addition of a couple of rookies and some journeymen vets and 32yo Rose and got 4th seed in an unusual season. But fire his ass lol

No one would respect you as a GM if you pulled that move. You'd be black balled so fast you wouldn't know what hit you after you were fired.

You need to decide if you want to have passion as a fan or evaluate NBA teams and circumstances like normal NBA people do because there is a wide chasm there.

I don’t think I cursed yet on this topic so please don’t escalate that way. I also don’t know why you keep going back to the COTY season with Thibs. Thibs as he is right now should be let go. He’s not good for this team and Leon trying to make it work is probably tied to his relationship with Thibs.

Quin Snyder is out there. Atkinson is out there, Bryant is already on the bench… Thibs shouldn’t feel safe as HC because Leon is his good friend. Leon letting it be known he is fiercely loyal to Thibs is a mistake. I also don’t think waiting until the offseason to make a move is wise because there could be better jobs out there. Kerr to the Warriors being a great example, plus after the way things happened with Thibs would anyone think they have a chance since the last coaching search was more for show than anything else.

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.

Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-randle-shot-chart-this-season Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-general?dir=D&sort=FG3_PCT Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

I don't find your above thoughtful. Again, you are looking for flaws instead of looking for development. I'll take the first:

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

No one is blaming RJ, Brunson, Randle; it's just reality. They are poor defenders, and somehow RJ got worse this year. Do you find those statements correct or not? If you have a starting lineup of 3 bad defenders who also are poor at rotating and defending the perimeter, do you think it's a bad scheme or just ****ty defenders?

Do you think Thbis is just watching Randle and not saying something to him? Do you think a different coach can get Randle to defend more? Do you think a different coach can make RJ's feet move faster?

How do you equate the fact that when Grimes, IQ, McBride are defending they are light years ahead of these guys?

It's a ****ing MIRACLE that Thibs was able to squeeze out a top rated defense out of RJ and Randle. That's 2/5th's of guys who are getting heavy minutes in your rotation. RJ is just a poor defender in general and so is Randle. Neither can think through what they are doing and only Randle has enough quickness to do it from time to time.

Last one for me:

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

eFG% is the result of making baskets. It's not about the type of offense that gets you the shots that you want. You are pointing to execution of the shotmaking and not the types of shots the guys are doing.

The Knicks just went all modern offense this year. Rim shots and 3pointers. They just have guys that can't make those shots. Namely, the 2 guys that are the Knicks best'ish players.

RJ gets a ****ton of open shots cause the offense is putting him into those situations. Rim shots and 3points, both of which he is executing at an ungodly poor %. That's the shot-making portion. Coaching have ZERO control over shooting, they only put in you a position to take those shots.

RJ gets a TON of Spanish PnR going downhill towards the rim with his dominant hand. This is purposeful; it's exactly what RJ SHOULD be able to do. Make a decision to pass to wide open spacers or alley oop to big or make a 5-10 foot shot (which he sucks at). He sucks at making reads too but is constantly in the position to do so. That's a scheme working, a player not making a shot (and thus poor eFG%).

The Knicks right now have some poor 3point shooters. They are getting enough open shots. They are not making them at even an average rate. So duh, low eFG%.

Analytically speaking, Knicks offense if competely different than the 2 previous years. Go look at Randle shot chart this year compared to the last 2. His eFG% is some of the best in his career, cause they make him not take long 2's and most of his post ups. They want him downhill too with more rim and 3pointers ala a modern offense and he is mostly doing it. Still sucks at MAKING 3's, but he is taking them at a higher rate, which you want.

Why do you think eFG% is indicative of scheme versus scheme plus the talent to MAKE shots when you have opportunities?

In addition to types of shots the Knicks are taking, the pace of the team is much faster than in 2 previous years. Previous years, they were bottom. This year, they are top 10. Those are the schemes put in place.

Knicks just don't have the guys who can make shots. It's literally just that.

Martin... a good coach puts his players in position to succeed. This is a pretty impressive breakdown of how that position has been provided and players just arent executing.

Everyone cried about Thibs being antiquated and isnt going to value analytics and "the modern game" and well guess what? That is the exact formula we are following ALONG with a youth movement and people are like "I feel like Thibs needs to go"

Its fine, it's the fanbase. Thibs isnt perfect but he's good, and its been a LONG time since we had a good coach. You know, like a 2x COY type that goes places and the teams and players get better right away because that's what good coaching does. When we are past the "we need talent" stage and onto the "win in the finals" stage maybe it's time for a better X's and O's guy than Thibs. I look forward to those discussions

First things first: I didn't want us to hire Thibs but i was wrong on that and have come to like him and respect what he has done. But we have had plenty of good coaches that just didn't connect for a variety of reasons. Thibs has succeeded where others have failed so he deserves credit for that.

I don't think coaching is simple as Xs and Os. I look to Celts they had success with B.Stevens, but I.Udoka somehow tapped into Tatum and the rest of the team to bring their defense up a notch. Now they have the new guy who i don't even remember the name and they are probably better still.

my reasonable hope with Thib is that he will bring stability, an expectation for winning, certain expectations on players and to grow from there. I'd like to think we begin institutionalizing expertise so that our next coach is better still.

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

Could you point us to this statement of Rose's? Cause I didn't see it that way. Rose knows his role on team, he just didn't know if he was getting playing time.

here's one but i heard him say this more recently too: https://nypost.com/2022/11/10/derrick-rose-is-figuring-out-his-new-knicks-role/

His playing time is limited? He is coming off injury season and is 34? And?

He has played in the same role as he had before on the Knicks. With IQ off bench. He hasn't been as spicy and also hurt his toe recently?

So this is it?

i can't find his more recent comment. That said, i do think the team looks out of sync at times which is odd because i expected the addition of JB to help tremendously.

We should also keep in mind that this unit has had the most consistency of roster and coaching and scheme in a while.

obi looks lost at time; RJ looks like he's trying to pretend to be superman; i think JR at times is trying to play to a new more deferential-to-JB role but still a Work in progress. IQ is so focused on PG role he's lost his scoring electricity

we have to break out of this -- hopefully tonight

Why do you think it is odd? Do you think just by adding 1 player a team will instantly and without some up and downs through only 20 games into a season be a smooth sailing ship?

You want to know why it is up and down? Cause RJ and Randle are used to having the ball in their hands a ton and are still adjusting to that change. They are still finding their role around a PG as good as Jalen.

Last year, Boston Celtics where 19-20 with guys like Al Horford and Smart and Tatum and Brown. High level players. They were literally up and down for 40 games! And they all had been playing together for a long ass time.

Knicks have barely average IQ thinkers like RJ and Randle. And not for nothing, Mitch too.

Why do you think the Knicks with a new offensive scheme and a new PG would be more capable than the Boston Celtics were last year and their adjustment period?

It took about ~20 games for LeBron, Wade, Bosh to finally figure things out in their first year in Miami.

Knicks are much less smart and talented than those 2 teams. That should be more of the barometer.

Fair enough. I've been saying for a while we have a lot of guys simultaneously playing poor which might just be random or could be chemistry. i'd like to see just a couple of guys shake out of their current funk

personally, i thought JB would have solved some problems from last year where RJ and JR took turns being a ball hog and he would have flipped it to the appropriate guy depending on matchups and context. I expect things to get better.

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.

Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-randle-shot-chart-this-season Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-general?dir=D&sort=FG3_PCT Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

I don't find your above thoughtful. Again, you are looking for flaws instead of looking for development. I'll take the first:

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

No one is blaming RJ, Brunson, Randle; it's just reality. They are poor defenders, and somehow RJ got worse this year. Do you find those statements correct or not? If you have a starting lineup of 3 bad defenders who also are poor at rotating and defending the perimeter, do you think it's a bad scheme or just ****ty defenders?

Do you think Thbis is just watching Randle and not saying something to him? Do you think a different coach can get Randle to defend more? Do you think a different coach can make RJ's feet move faster?

How do you equate the fact that when Grimes, IQ, McBride are defending they are light years ahead of these guys?

It's a ****ing MIRACLE that Thibs was able to squeeze out a top rated defense out of RJ and Randle. That's 2/5th's of guys who are getting heavy minutes in your rotation. RJ is just a poor defender in general and so is Randle. Neither can think through what they are doing and only Randle has enough quickness to do it from time to time.

Last one for me:

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

eFG% is the result of making baskets. It's not about the type of offense that gets you the shots that you want. You are pointing to execution of the shotmaking and not the types of shots the guys are doing.

The Knicks just went all modern offense this year. Rim shots and 3pointers. They just have guys that can't make those shots. Namely, the 2 guys that are the Knicks best'ish players.

RJ gets a ****ton of open shots cause the offense is putting him into those situations. Rim shots and 3points, both of which he is executing at an ungodly poor %. That's the shot-making portion. Coaching have ZERO control over shooting, they only put in you a position to take those shots.

RJ gets a TON of Spanish PnR going downhill towards the rim with his dominant hand. This is purposeful; it's exactly what RJ SHOULD be able to do. Make a decision to pass to wide open spacers or alley oop to big or make a 5-10 foot shot (which he sucks at). He sucks at making reads too but is constantly in the position to do so. That's a scheme working, a player not making a shot (and thus poor eFG%).

The Knicks right now have some poor 3point shooters. They are getting enough open shots. They are not making them at even an average rate. So duh, low eFG%.

Analytically speaking, Knicks offense if competely different than the 2 previous years. Go look at Randle shot chart this year compared to the last 2. His eFG% is some of the best in his career, cause they make him not take long 2's and most of his post ups. They want him downhill too with more rim and 3pointers ala a modern offense and he is mostly doing it. Still sucks at MAKING 3's, but he is taking them at a higher rate, which you want.

Why do you think eFG% is indicative of scheme versus scheme plus the talent to MAKE shots when you have opportunities?

In addition to types of shots the Knicks are taking, the pace of the team is much faster than in 2 previous years. Previous years, they were bottom. This year, they are top 10. Those are the schemes put in place.

Knicks just don't have the guys who can make shots. It's literally just that.

Martin... a good coach puts his players in position to succeed. This is a pretty impressive breakdown of how that position has been provided and players just arent executing.

Everyone cried about Thibs being antiquated and isnt going to value analytics and "the modern game" and well guess what? That is the exact formula we are following ALONG with a youth movement and people are like "I feel like Thibs needs to go"

Its fine, it's the fanbase. Thibs isnt perfect but he's good, and its been a LONG time since we had a good coach. You know, like a 2x COY type that goes places and the teams and players get better right away because that's what good coaching does. When we are past the "we need talent" stage and onto the "win in the finals" stage maybe it's time for a better X's and O's guy than Thibs. I look forward to those discussions

First things first: I didn't want us to hire Thibs but i was wrong on that and have come to like him and respect what he has done. But we have had plenty of good coaches that just didn't connect for a variety of reasons. Thibs has succeeded where others have failed so he deserves credit for that.

I don't think coaching is simple as Xs and Os. I look to Celts they had success with B.Stevens, but I.Udoka somehow tapped into Tatum and the rest of the team to bring their defense up a notch. Now they have the new guy who i don't even remember the name and they are probably better still.

my reasonable hope with Thib is that he will bring stability, an expectation for winning, certain expectations on players and to grow from there. I'd like to think we begin institutionalizing expertise so that our next coach is better still.

I'm the same way. Never been a huge fan of Thibs coming here as the Head Coach, but after his COY run, and how Randle responded that year, I was like ok maybe we have something here. And during that year, I was one of the few people in the forum protecting Elf and Bullock type players saying they fit the team and they were very important during that run. But nobody wanted to give them credit. Instead everybody (except me) wanted them all gone. Well, they all gone and instead we got better offensive players (thats what knick fans wanted).

And guess what, our defense is now worse and now we are crying for more defense. The issue with scrapping the bottom of the barrel, in search for talent. You either get a terrible offensive player, but great defensive player and vice versa. And thats how Leon Rose built this team with those types of players. Now we have the flip side. Offensive players who are weak on defense. Both team building strategies makes us mediocre. And the only move that saves us is a star player. Otherwise, we will always have a team full of good offense but bad defense and vice versa. The hope was Grimes would turn into a legit 2 way player, along with Cam and RJ. But thats future projections. Currently Grimes and others are not there yet.

And this impatient knick fan culture doesn't help. But thats what you get when your last championship run was 1973 and it's going on 2023 50years later.

Zero close out, not within 6 feet. World is falling apart. Defense is in disarray.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1600570283873673216

martin wrote:Fire Erik Spolstra? His schemes may be outdated cause look there is a pic of Bam watching a decent shooter do his thing or perhaps coach can't get through to Bam any more?

Zero close out, not within 6 feet. World is falling apart. Defense is in disarray.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1600570283873673216

You know what? Bam at his worst is still better than what we see from Julius on a game to game basis. At least he's in a stance he made the effort to leave the paint.

EwingsGlass wrote:Drilling down, you are making it seem like I am just trying to hate on the Knicks.

You are complaining about not seeing things get better but you are also not looking for development, just finding flaws with what is going on with no real context to it.

EwingsGlass wrote:I see the failings of the team to do basic things like pass the ball and rotate on defense to the Coach. You are attributing it to the player. For me, its not individual plays, its the aggregate. Your proof of concept is citing to players who until very recently were getting limited minutes from the coach. Not clear that McBride is actually getting minutes going forward only that he is getting a "look"

My proof of concept is to show you with the right type of player, suddenly rotations and guarding the perimeter are happening. They happen with Grimes and IQ and McBride and Cam (and who really cares about the recent minutes thing, that has nothing to do with anything). They don't happen with RJ and Randle and Fournier (and as effectively with Brunson) cause those guys don't have the physical capability or are just mentally not on it.

When 2 different groups of guys are trying to do the same things, and one group can do it and one cannot, it's on the players. If you have a defensive scheme and zero people are doing something well, maybe it's the schemes.

You know what is a hallmark of all top defensive teams? Guys like Hakeem and Draymond and Ben Wallace/Rasheed and Jordan/Pipen/Rodman and many many more. You actually have to have physically capable guys (maybe you can hide 1 guy in a team environment) and you have to have at least 1 really smart big.

To make it more obvious: Name me a team that had at least 2 really bad defenders and an additional mediocre defender that was top 10 defensive team in the league? That would obliterate my point OR make it such that that coach is a genius defensive coach who is over-coaching his guys.

It appeared that a rotation change was all that the Knicks needed, and a lot of credit is owed to Thibodeau for finding a rotation that has worked masterfully.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/outerlink.asp?id=146834638