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lord have mercy... Knicks sign Hardaway Jr to an offer sheet worth almost $80mm
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Bonn1997
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7/8/2017  7:48 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.
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TPercy
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7/8/2017  8:31 AM
Timmy has improved drastically. Watching his old highlights for us and litterally all he did was shoot the ball the first chance r got
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dacash
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7/8/2017  12:11 PM
lol pls dont let this be another wroten thread, not 50 pages long
meloshouldgo
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7/8/2017  7:54 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:I am yet to read one credible response to WHY we needed to do this NOW?
What is the purpose of signing this guy that everyone agrees is a risk at his contract level to a position where we already have a decent starter on a good contract. We are not winning anything now, this dude isn't going to be the next Kobe or Klay, we could overpay for a player like him on any given year, what great intangible does he possess that was considered irreplaceable? Even if we traded Lee why do we need THJR now on a 4/71MM contract?

If Lee is on a decent contract, TH JR is on a great contract because he is more than $5 mil a season better than Lee.

Exactly how is he more than 5 million a year better?

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
codeunknown
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7/9/2017  4:59 AM
Interesting move. Definitely an overpay but by how much is hard to say - THjr made a jump last year so his value is in flux, and there are possible down the road benefits in keeping Porzingis and engaging with other free agents in the future, by maintaining a degree of pseudo-competitiveness. It incrementally hurts a tank - but the team was probably closer to a 5-7 draft position rather than anything close to 1-3, even before the signing - and the combined value of the "adjusted" pick + THJr could exceed the original pick. Getting rid of Melo is still necessary to maximize value here.

Paying for potential is almost a requisite to play in restricted free agency, but I probably wouldn't have gone over 4 years ~52 mil. Tim has a good regular season but he unequivocally got destroyed in the 6 games he played in the playoffs. I tend to value the larger data with varying opposition - but it seems there was a matchup issue in the playoffs (and perhaps in general with smaller quicker guards) that hurts Tims performance.

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meloshouldgo
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7/9/2017  10:24 AM
codeunknown wrote:Interesting move. Definitely an overpay but by how much is hard to say - THjr made a jump last year so his value is in flux, and there are possible down the road benefits in keeping Porzingis and engaging with other free agents in the future, by maintaining a degree of pseudo-competitiveness. It incrementally hurts a tank - but the team was probably closer to a 5-7 draft position rather than anything close to 1-3, even before the signing - and the combined value of the "adjusted" pick + THJr could exceed the original pick. Getting rid of Melo is still necessary to maximize value here.

Paying for potential is almost a requisite to play in restricted free agency, but I probably wouldn't have gone over 4 years ~52 mil. Tim has a good regular season but he unequivocally got destroyed in the 6 games he played in the playoffs. I tend to value the larger data with varying opposition - but it seems there was a matchup issue in the playoffs (and perhaps in general with smaller quicker guards) that hurts Tims performance.

Well reasoned good breakdown. It is wise to look at the larger dataset.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
newyorknewyork
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7/9/2017  10:37 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.

3-4 over a 2 year span of multiple trades to acquire picks. If done right you have cap space again in 2 years to sign a FA or more due to the ability to buyout and stretch Noah.

Nets got a 2018 first & 2nd for Carroll. There is Omar Asik and Brandon Knight to be had for more picks moving Lee, KOQ, Lance, Kuz.

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OAK
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7/9/2017  10:58 AM
we should've drafted Monk instead of this BS
EwingsGlass
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7/9/2017  12:36 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.

Toronto just gave up a #1 to get rid of Demarre Caroll. So, the market is at 1 late pick. Basically, the Hawks should have given us at least 1 pick to take this contract on. There are 2 more years on THJ's contract. Great job guys. Which picks are we giving up to get out of this contract?

You know I gonna spin wit it
martin
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7/9/2017  12:47 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.

Toronto just gave up a #1 to get rid of Demarre Caroll. So, the market is at 1 late pick. Basically, the Hawks should have given us at least 1 pick to take this contract on. There are 2 more years on THJ's contract. Great job guys. Which picks are we giving up to get out of this contract?

Man, I can understand not liking the signing but are we so jaded that before the guy even hits game #1 we are already contemplating what it would take to move him?

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CrushAlot
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7/9/2017  12:49 PM
Rosen's grade,
Here are some more ratings of the most recent trades and free-agent deals.

TIM HARDAWAY JR. to New York: Hardaway is a no-pass, no-drive, no-defense player, and an inconsistent but potentially explosive scorer. Why, then, have the Knicks paid him as though he’s a surefire star?

GRADE = D

https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/rosen-grading-tim-hardaway-jr-deal-recent-moves/
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Jmpasq
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7/9/2017  1:19 PM
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.

Toronto just gave up a #1 to get rid of Demarre Caroll. So, the market is at 1 late pick. Basically, the Hawks should have given us at least 1 pick to take this contract on. There are 2 more years on THJ's contract. Great job guys. Which picks are we giving up to get out of this contract?

Man, I can understand not liking the signing but are we so jaded that before the guy even hits game #1 we are already contemplating what it would take to move him?

They should be jaded this moves reeks of stupidity. Its an absolute cap killer. You realize this contracts eats salary cap when KP and Willy become FA's right. Everyone here tells me KP is going to be a top 5 player in the NBA. If that is true we can assume NY becomes an attractive FA destination. But guess what since we decided Hardway Jr.is worth 19 million that year,add in Noah's crippling deal, we no longer have the cap space to offer another max deal.

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EwingsGlass
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7/9/2017  2:01 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:My only real issue with the signing is that I feel its a year to 2 to early for this type of signing. We should have been using our cap space to asset collect over the next 2 years. If we pilled up 3-4 future fist round draft picks by eating ugly contracts with 1-2 years left on them. Then we could have went into 2019 with nice collection of picks and cap space. To go with Frank, KP, Willy, Dotson. And another 2 lottery picks. Then we could trade one of those 1 lotto picks and the other future picks for a star. Still have cap space to sign some other players. Moves that could build a championship contender.

Oh wow common sense you should be the GM of the Knicks


Teams aren't giving away picks. If you absorb one bad contract at at $17 mil per, you might get 1 mid 1st round pic, definitely not 3-4. It's not clear that that would give more value than just having TH JR.

Toronto just gave up a #1 to get rid of Demarre Caroll. So, the market is at 1 late pick. Basically, the Hawks should have given us at least 1 pick to take this contract on. There are 2 more years on THJ's contract. Great job guys. Which picks are we giving up to get out of this contract?

Man, I can understand not liking the signing but are we so jaded that before the guy even hits game #1 we are already contemplating what it would take to move him?

They should be jaded this moves reeks of stupidity. Its an absolute cap killer. You realize this contracts eats salary cap when KP and Willy become FA's right. Everyone here tells me KP is going to be a top 5 player in the NBA. If that is true we can assume NY becomes an attractive FA destination. But guess what since we decided Hardway Jr.is worth 19 million that year,add in Noah's crippling deal, we no longer have the cap space to offer another max deal.

I've drank my share of Kool Aid. This signing might work out. There is a possibility. But if I told you that you could hace Demarre Carrol and a first rd pick for the same annual dollars but two years less, what would you do? You can sell me on THJ and upside. The contract still makes no sense.

I'm not running to UltimateNets.com but their management is making the Knicks look foolish. And I likke their team better this year.

You know I gonna spin wit it
Bonn1997
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7/9/2017  2:14 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Rosen's grade,
Here are some more ratings of the most recent trades and free-agent deals.

TIM HARDAWAY JR. to New York: Hardaway is a no-pass, no-drive, no-defense player, and an inconsistent but potentially explosive scorer. Why, then, have the Knicks paid him as though he’s a surefire star?

GRADE = D

https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/rosen-grading-tim-hardaway-jr-deal-recent-moves/

Anyone can state an opinion without providing evidence. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
Uptown
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7/9/2017  2:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/9/2017  2:44 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Rosen's grade,
Here are some more ratings of the most recent trades and free-agent deals.

TIM HARDAWAY JR. to New York: Hardaway is a no-pass, no-drive, no-defense player, and an inconsistent but potentially explosive scorer. Why, then, have the Knicks paid him as though he’s a surefire star?

GRADE = D

https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/rosen-grading-tim-hardaway-jr-deal-recent-moves/

Did we expect anything higher than a D from phil Rosen? Obviously he hasnt seen Hardaway since he left NY...
fishmike
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7/9/2017  3:07 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Rosen's grade,
Here are some more ratings of the most recent trades and free-agent deals.

TIM HARDAWAY JR. to New York: Hardaway is a no-pass, no-drive, no-defense player, and an inconsistent but potentially explosive scorer. Why, then, have the Knicks paid him as though he’s a surefire star?

GRADE = D

https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/rosen-grading-tim-hardaway-jr-deal-recent-moves/

Anyone can state an opinion without providing evidence. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
yea thats the thing. Maybe he fails the eye test but how much of THjr did people wath last year? The #s tell a very different story. So when I hear "no drive" and "no defense" the stats say the exact opposite. I think Hardaway is good player here. The timing is questionable but I will reserve judgement when I see the final roster.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
CrushAlot
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7/9/2017  3:22 PM
Uptown wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Rosen's grade,
Here are some more ratings of the most recent trades and free-agent deals.

TIM HARDAWAY JR. to New York: Hardaway is a no-pass, no-drive, no-defense player, and an inconsistent but potentially explosive scorer. Why, then, have the Knicks paid him as though he’s a surefire star?

GRADE = D

https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/rosen-grading-tim-hardaway-jr-deal-recent-moves/

Did we expect anything higher than a D from phil Rosen? Obviously he hasnt seen Hardaway since he left NY...

I just posted it because someone suggested signing Tim was part of Phil's plan.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
martin
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7/14/2017  6:34 PM

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TLover
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7/14/2017  11:14 PM
The $ is ridiculous.. mainly bc it ties up our cap space.. that being said this move was made with the intention of trading Melo. Hardaway was probably the best scorer on the market to make up for the points they would lose from Melo.

If Timmy doesn't average at least 20ppg next season then there's a problem. Also KP should average 20ppg. 3rd scoring option could be Willy or Frankie. Realistically our #3 scorer should come from a Melo trade.
smackeddog
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7/15/2017  3:28 AM
I'm not a fan of Tim Jr, and I don't like the contract but the way the media has been going on about it has been ridiculous- no way is it the worst contract of the summer. I don't remember them freaking out about the nets offering Tyler Johnson what they offered, and they were fine with Riley matching it (he'll get paid $20 mil per the last 2 years), same with Crabbe.
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lord have mercy... Knicks sign Hardaway Jr to an offer sheet worth almost $80mm
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