gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

Bonn1997 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

And I'll add that there are times B is higher than A. If you want something concrete, Fish, I would have offered Patty Mill significantly more than the Spurs did. I don't know how big a risk the shoulder injury is but I still would take a gamble on him. If you're into economics, you know about diversifying investments. It's much less risky to invest in 5 guys each making $25 mil than one guy making $125 mil. If you take the less risky approach, you should be able to eventually build a team that appeals to a guy who actually does deserve to be the highest paid NBA player.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

And I'll add that there are times B is higher than A. If you want something concrete, Fish, I would have offered Patty Mill significantly more than the Spurs did. I don't know how big a risk the shoulder injury is but I still would take a gamble on him. If you're into economics, you know about diversifying investments. It's much less risky to invest in 5 guys each making $25 mil than one guy making $125 mil. If you take the less risky approach, you should be able to eventually build a team that appeals to a guy who actually does deserve to be the highest paid NBA player.

Mills got three years 12 mil. The Knicks couldn't pay him that much because they can only offer 3.6 mil to start.

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

And I'll add that there are times B is higher than A. If you want something concrete, Fish, I would have offered Patty Mill significantly more than the Spurs did. I don't know how big a risk the shoulder injury is but I still would take a gamble on him. If you're into economics, you know about diversifying investments. It's much less risky to invest in 5 guys each making $25 mil than one guy making $125 mil. If you take the less risky approach, you should be able to eventually build a team that appeals to a guy who actually does deserve to be the highest paid NBA player.

Mills got three years 12 mil. The Knicks couldn't pay him that much because they can only offer 3.6 mil to start.

no Bonn... that no risk approach doesnt work. NBA titles and great teams are build around elite (and expensive) talent. Sounds nice but no basis in reality. The hedge or diversification is the draft. Lakers get nothing from Kobe/Nash, but they end up with Randle. Not too shabby. No reason the Knicks cant follow such a model.

Melo is definitely up to something- I think the rumour of him going to Miami IF Bosh goes to Houston makes the most sense- otherwise there's no reason for this long delay.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That's not being honest, the main reason the Knicks are paying 30 million dollars more as you put it, is because they are locking Melo for a 5th year. 96 million is the market for a 4 year deal.

And the market (using Fish's definition) is for a 4 year deal since that's the most any other team can offer. Maybe you just disagree with his definition.

But clearly the real discrepancy between what other teams can offer and what the knicks can is the 5th year. So maybe people who quoting 96 million as their bidding number should look at Phil with hate, since he and the Knicks are really raising the total number above 96 million to the unsightly number of 129. Which, as crush pointed out, is just an extra year with 7% increases.

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That's not being honest, the main reason the Knicks are paying 30 million dollars more as you put it, is because they are locking Melo for a 5th year. 96 million is the market for a 4 year deal.

And the market (using Fish's definition) is for a 4 year deal since that's the most any other team can offer. Maybe you just disagree with his definition.

I don't disagree or agree with anything...and don't call me shirley.

But clearly the real discrepancy between what other teams can offer and what the knicks can is the 5th year. So maybe people who quoting 96 million as their bidding number should look at Phil with hate, since he and the Knicks are really raising the total number above 96 million to the unsightly number of 129. Which, as crush pointed out, is just an extra year with 7% increases.

Lets say it was 4yrs & Melo beomes a free agent? How much do you think Melo is worth in that 5th year at 35? Certainly not $30m right?

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That's not being honest, the main reason the Knicks are paying 30 million dollars more as you put it, is because they are locking Melo for a 5th year. 96 million is the market for a 4 year deal.

And the market (using Fish's definition) is for a 4 year deal since that's the most any other team can offer. Maybe you just disagree with his definition.

I don't disagree or agree with anything...and don't call me shirley.

But clearly the real discrepancy between what other teams can offer and what the knicks can is the 5th year. So maybe people who quoting 96 million as their bidding number should look at Phil with hate, since he and the Knicks are really raising the total number above 96 million to the unsightly number of 129. Which, as crush pointed out, is just an extra year with 7% increases.

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That's not being honest, the main reason the Knicks are paying 30 million dollars more as you put it, is because they are locking Melo for a 5th year. 96 million is the market for a 4 year deal.

yea $33m more to have the pleasure to be graced by a 35yr old Melo. We are so lucky!

Price of business, if the knicks thought that it was enough to keep melo, they would have offered him 4 years no???

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

And I'll add that there are times B is higher than A. If you want something concrete, Fish, I would have offered Patty Mill significantly more than the Spurs did. I don't know how big a risk the shoulder injury is but I still would take a gamble on him. If you're into economics, you know about diversifying investments. It's much less risky to invest in 5 guys each making $25 mil than one guy making $125 mil. If you take the less risky approach, you should be able to eventually build a team that appeals to a guy who actually does deserve to be the highest paid NBA player.

Mills got three years 12 mil. The Knicks couldn't pay him that much because they can only offer 3.6 mil to start.

no Bonn... that no risk approach doesnt work. NBA titles and great teams are build around elite (and expensive) talent. Sounds nice but no basis in reality. The hedge or diversification is the draft. Lakers get nothing from Kobe/Nash, but they end up with Randle. Not too shabby. No reason the Knicks cant follow such a model.

*Eventually* you have to take a risk, sure. That doesn't mean making Melo the highest paid player in the league is a good risk to take. The goal is to have a good team that appeals to a guy who might be worth being the highest paid player in the league.

I thought that the goal was to win games and compete for a title. The FA your talking about has happened twice in the last 20 years. Shaq and Lebron. Is that what we are holding out for? Maybe Dwight Howard? Its incredibly rare that caliber of player a) leaving or b) going to team that isnt an established winner. How do you become an established winner? Pay elite talent. Lakers model. Phil is the right guy.. lets see it play out

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That's not being honest, the main reason the Knicks are paying 30 million dollars more as you put it, is because they are locking Melo for a 5th year. 96 million is the market for a 4 year deal.

And the market (using Fish's definition) is for a 4 year deal since that's the most any other team can offer. Maybe you just disagree with his definition.

I don't disagree or agree with anything...and don't call me shirley.

But clearly the real discrepancy between what other teams can offer and what the knicks can is the 5th year. So maybe people who quoting 96 million as their bidding number should look at Phil with hate, since he and the Knicks are really raising the total number above 96 million to the unsightly number of 129. Which, as crush pointed out, is just an extra year with 7% increases.

Yeah, we're paying above Fish's definition of market value and we're bidding against ourselves by adding that year.