i just don't wanna end up here talking about how we missed out on Derozan cuz we picked Thabeet cuz of that silly old "you can't teach height" line of thinking, just like people were crying about the Clippers passing up on Vince Carter cuz they took this guy

Derozan is basically a Trevor Ariza clone. I really doubt we'll be "missing out" on him. In fact I say he's one of the dudes who has the potential to fall out of the lottery altogether.

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-17-2009 05:24 AM]

anyway, while we're on the topic of busts, here's a pretty sad clip outlining some of the biggest NBA busts of alltime:

We can have 9 different opinions--it doesnt matter--we are taking Curry whether we draft 3 8 or 9 if he is there and Rubio 1 or 2. I don't dislike either player--although I think Rubio is going very high and the expectations being put on him are asinine and possibly hurtful. He doesnt realize people are putting him in the class of a basketball jesus--think about it for one second Magic Johnson is Magic Johnson at 18 or 20 in the NBA--this kid is going to have trouble from day 1--he's foreign and who knows what will happen to his mental state after seeing some serious pro guards. His shot is flat and he's going to be physically weaker than many of the top guards. He is long with an innate feeling for the game but to get pick 1 I think you have to have shown dominance somewhere and there is only 2 players in the top 5 who have shown dominance--Griffin--who should be the runaway 1 and Thabeet[who has his own flaws and is still growing into the game]

Personally not using our main asset on something that can help our putrid defense is astounding. I think physically Tyreke Evans can probably help our putrid perimeter D and IF we could buy a pick--lets say 14 to grab Mullens--I think a Mullens Evans draft would ultimately be a solid one on both ends.

But the point is moot--were taking Rubio or Curry and everyone knows it.

Griffin, Rubio ... ? I think we need to look at BPA for our system! Since the talent level drops off so much, you have to adjust the usual BPA approach to try and get a player that would make the most difference for your team going forward. If there was a clear winner talent wise then i'd say stay with the BPA approach regardless of position.

However, we have a very specific need at PG and despite the great upside that a Jennings has, I think a Curry more closely fits the need we have for a PG that can play the game like MDA needs. Before MDA Nash was avg'ing about 16/7 with 3 rpg, 1 spg and under 3 TO's. In MDA's system his asts jumped to double digits. I fully expect a similar result for Curry.

The thing is that Nash is a HIGHLY efficient shooter and with the Knicks looking to continue to add more shooters at every position, a kid like Curry won't have to carry all the scoring like he has in college. The style of play will be more what he's used to. Having the ball in his hands a lot and making plays for others and himself. unlike most other PG's in this draft he's proven to be a terror with the ball and in this last season he was able to also improve his assists. He's not a pure point, but he's much more capable of running the point already than Nate. MDA should be able to work with that.

Posted by oohah:

Posted by Paladin55:

I personally did not give a thought to Curry until the rumors about the Knicks interest him began to swirl around. Names are thrown around and you start to look at them differently, check out what clips you can see of them, and read the scouting reports.

I was originally a DeRozan fan at #8, and would be happy with him, but I think that at #8, the Knicks will go PG. MDA's system depends entirely on the actions and decisions of an intelligent PG who can get to the basket, dish it, and hit whatever situational shot he is confronted with. The PG does not have to be a guy who finishes with dunks- when did Nash ever touch a rim with his hand?- but he has to make the right decision when he has the ball.

At # 8 we will be looking most closely at Curry, Holiday, Lawson, Jennings and Flynn, and as I have said before, the ultimate choice will be MDA's. His Knick legacy will probably be based on which PG is chosen. If they feel none of the PGs fit the MDA mold, they will probably trade out of the pick.

Curry's defensive success will be determined not by his strength, but by has lateral quickness- if he can stay in front of his opponent he will be fine- if not, we are in trouble, because our weak interior D is exposed with a perimeter defending guards like the once we had this year.

Any debate over who we pick at #8, IMO, should be about which PG we take, not whether we should take DeRozan, Mullens, Blair, etc.

A simple syllogism:

The success of the D'Antoni offense goes as far as the PG who runs it.

The Knicks do not have a PG who has the decision making ability and consistency to run an MDA offense.

Therefore the Knicks should be looking for a PG to lead the team.


At this point we just have to sit back and watch the competition among the contending PGs begin, and hope that the Knicks can pick out the best fit for the team.

I don't see how you can remove strength from defensive ability. Wispy guards tend to get abused by the Chauncy Billups and Deron Williams of the world. Yes, you don't have to be a muscle man to be good on defense (Mario Chalmers and Rondo) but I have seen nothing to show me that Curry has that kind of defensive ability or instincts.


Second, if D'Antoni's legacy depends on picking the right PG, then Curry is not the guy. He is not a natural PG. As Pharezone pointed out above, Curry excels more at the SG position. Curry is first and foremost a shooter. Nobody is fawning over his passing and floor general abilities.

The comparison of Curry with Nash and Stockton are not really valid. Those guys were always PG's. Nobody had to remold them into PGs.

Having said that I wouldn't mind snapping Curry up mid to late first round after we secure Thabeet!

oohah
[Edited by - oohah on 17-05-2009 02:10 AM]

I would rather that a player be stronger than weaker- no doubt about it. I have been complaining about Lee's strength all year. I also believe that Gallinari must become stronger to play effectively in this league. Perimeter D is not necessarily all about strength, however- much of it is about positioning, lateral movement, desire, and understanding opponent's tendencies. With that said, if Chris Paul starts taking Curry into the post and muscling him for scores at will, I will be pretty pissed off. (I must take a shot at the strongest player in the draft, perhaps outside of Blair- Blake Griffin is a pretty weak defender in the post and seems to have average leaping ability when he plays man on man on D. He is also a terrible shot blocker.)

Pure physical strength can also be overrated. Nate is pound for pound one of the strongest guys in the league, and I bet he can bench press more than a lot of players considered better defensive players than him, but his size limits his effectiveness and hurts his leverage.If you want to look at guys like Flynn and Lawson, you are talking about the same issues that Nate has. Neither is probably going to top 6', and no matter how strong they are, they are going to have problems simply because of their height.

The guy who continues to intrigue me is Holiday. Only 18, so he is still maturing, good size and reputation for defensive ability. He is also going to be playing in at least one of the group workouts, but not the one I mention below, unfortunately.

By the way, Curry, Calathese, Evans, Lawson, Mills, Flynn, Price, Collison, Maynor, and Teague will all be in the June 3rd group workout.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 05-17-2009 12:15 PM]

Posted by oohah:

So we are all in agreement that if Thabeet is on the board he is who we will take?

oohah

A joke, right?

I would not touch him with a 7'3" pole.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 05-17-2009 1:34 PM]

Posted by GKFv2:

Posted by TMS:

Derozan won't go lower than 9 at the worst... my gut says he's gone by pick 6... Trevor Ariza??? please... dude doesn't play like him at all... Ariza uses his length well as a high energy type player, has an awkward form on his jumpshot, & is skinny as a chopstick... Derozan's 6'7" 225 lbs. & well put together for a 19 yo kid... he's built to take contact in the lane & has the explosion & the athletic ability to get off his shot at will against elite level competition... you can bet he'll put on at least another 10-15 lbs. by the time he turns 23 & into his prime... he's gonna be an absolute BEAST to cover at the NBA level... his only weakness is his lack of a consistent J & yet he already demonstrates very nice form & elevation when he shoots it... it's only a matter of time before his shot improves & he becomes a viable star calibre scorer at the NBA level if u ask me.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-17-2009 02:43 AM]

Beast? Star caliber scorer? He really doesn't seem to have that ability now or in the future. I don't believe he is as good as you make him out to be. You make him sound like T-Mac or something. It's 6 AM so I'm too lazy to elaborate any further but clearly another case of being too hyped on an athletic forward who possesses some tools and doesn't possess others and clearly is being drafted on the hope that he will find what he is missing one day. I don't like Derozan's game. I thought I once did but after viewing him some more the past few months I really don't. Give me Jennings any day.

yeah, a beast, star calibre... a 235 lb SG w/elite athleticism, hops & great form & elevation on his jumpshot in a few years, you can quote me on that... like i said, give this kid a few years & let him build some consistency w/that perimeter J, & he'll be every bit as good as T-Mac if not better... i dunno if i even believe u when u say you've watched this kid play if you're gonna sit here & compare him to Trevor Ariza... Derozan was putting up better #'s per game (29 / 8 / 4) his last year in HS than T-Mac did (25 / 7 / 6)... i mean dude, the kid was shooting at an 81% clip from the field & 53% from 3 pt. range!!! u wanna tell me this kid's got no skills other than being able to jump high? he had some typical freshman year struggles at USC but by the end of the year he was balling bigtime & outplaying much more highly touted SG prospects at the time like Harden & Holiday. Plus the kid showed up bigtime in the Pac10 championship game, which shows incredible maturity & ability to come up big when your team needs it most, unlike Harden who completely disappeared.

Derozan is every bit as athletic as T-Mac & w/his build will be bigger & stronger than T-Mac besides w/a little NBA level conditioning... the kid is already bigger than T-Mac is right now & kid is only 19!!! Trevor Ariza he most definitely is NOT bro.

The Knicks are going pick who they are going to pick in terms of PG and there is nothing we can do about it.

But if I can plead with them--if at all possible--if they can get high up enough into the draft for a second pick--even if that means a future lottery restricted 1+ the 3mm--I would implore them to get Mullens. He's perfect for the up tempo system--he will give us a dimension we so badly lack[and I know there will be some development time although I believe he can play right now off the bench]
If I was running things I would probably try to move back and pick up a 2010 pick take Mullens[probably 14th]--buy another pick and take Holiday with it later in the draft. It might not sound sexy but it would get us two players I think have the real ability to thrive in up tempo with great athletic bodies and skills that are there+ get us into a great draft next year.


i.e Move back to 14 with Pheonix for 8 and their 2010 pick restricted to 10 and purchase the highest available pick and take Holiday--OR if a player like a Curry Evans etal who will inevitable fall back some----grab them

Best case scenario out of lottery--take Tyreke Evans 8 and get Mullens 14.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 05-17-2009 2:47 PM]

Posted by TMS:

seriously stop flip floppin' so much... first you're riding Thabeet & Curry's jocks like there's no tomorrow, then it's onto Derozan's bandwagon after i told u all year the kid had the goods, then it's Tyreke Evans after the NCAA's & now it's Mullens... i'm getting dizzy here.

Were not getting a top 3 pick so we are not getting Thabeet and at 8 we are not getting Derozan. You deal with who you believe will be left.

We can't solve all of our problems in this draft and I wouldn't want to try. We're going to have to make trades, let some guys go, make smart small siginings and look to use cap space in the future in order to remake this team into a winner. The draft is only a small part of the solution.

No matter who we take in this draft it's only one aspect and I think we need to try to solve the PG problem since there are a lot of guards that should be there when we pick. I wouldn't waste time on a guy like Mullens, when it's not likely he'll be a real difference maker and we can get a big in other ways. If we end up staying at 8 go get the guard we need and call it a day.