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Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  5:52 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

Tell that to Cubs fans.

I know a couple of bookies that would love you as a client.
Right; the point is that it's NOT a level playing field and the one cchampionship in thirty statement does not apply. I don't think you read the entire discussion between me and 4949. It looks like you (and TMS) joined in at the point where you quoted me and are misunderstanding the (bolded) premise of my statement. All I'd tell Cubs' fans is that the premise of my conditional statement is not met. Are you disagreeing with that? If not, then what's your point?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 09:01 AM]

so the Boston Red Sox had been playing on an uneven playing field for 86 years before they finally won a championship? they play in probably the second largest sports market in baseball... what's their excuse? the Yankees didn't win every single WS ring during those years... why haven't the LA Dodgers or Angels won more WS championships when they play in huge sports markets? what's the Mets' excuse for not winning more than 2 championships since their franchise's inception, they play in the same market as the Yankees too, shouldn't they have won at the same rate as the Yankees have over that same time span according to your logic?

you're making excuses for teams that don't win other than the Yankees because of an uneven playing field, & yet whenever the discussion shifts over to the Yankees side you blame their inept management for not winning one the past few years... how about giving a little credit to the Yankees for a change for their unprecedented success over the history of their franchise? my guess is you've never experienced any of the lean years following the Yankees during other decades when making the playoffs was not necessarily a given... all you're used to watching are the dynasty teams of the mid-late 90s... those types of dynasty teams are few & far between... u can't expect to have that type of run of success every few years... the last time we had a team that could repeat as WS champions & progress far into the playoffs was in the mid 70s-early 80s... we had a run of 13 consecutive seasons without even making the playoffs in the 80s before this team finally got into postseason play in '95, & here you are complaining when the Yankees fail to progress past the 1st round in the playoffs for 4 years... you woulda probably had a heart attack by now had you been a fan of this team during those lean years... winning has been cyclical during the Yankees' history & that's how it will continue to be.

right now this team is poised to get back to its winning ways w/a stacked lineup & a stacked pitching rotation... we have a new generation of young talent that is poised to come into their own in the coming years... the Yankees ownership & management deserve a ton of credit for building that pipeline of young talent & for putting this current team together as they do for their incredible run of success they've been able to sustain over their franchise's history, i don't care how much money they have to spend in comparison to other teams... just spending money won't bring you success necessarily, go ask how many championships the Orioles won when they spent all those big bucks to put together their teams of the 90s... the Cubs, Mets, Dodgers & Giants spent huge bucks putting their teams together for a while now & have nothing to show for it either... as a self proclaimed Yankee fan i would expect you to realize that disappointing years will happen but you can be sure this franchise won't rest until they're back on top with that championship trophy instead of complaining about inept management every year they're not.
All those "counter"-examples can be explained by the fact that money spent is merely one of MANY factors that determine how many games a team wins. Why is it that you always come up with counter examples that don't counter anything I've ever said?
AUTOADVERT
TMS
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12/27/2008  6:13 PM
please explain these other factors then you're referring to that account for this uneven playing field other than money spent by big market teams.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  6:47 PM
Posted by TMS:

please explain these other factors then you're referring to that account for this uneven playing field other than money spent by big market teams.
huh? Are you asking what factors other than money impact a team's success? Having a smart GM, having some good health and good luck. I'm sure we could come up with a long list. Money is one factor and certainly not a meaningless one but there are plenty others too. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your question.

TMS
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12/27/2008  7:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

please explain these other factors then you're referring to that account for this uneven playing field other than money spent by big market teams.
huh? Are you asking what factors other than money impact a team's success? Having a smart GM, having some good health and good luck. I'm sure we could come up with a long list. Money is one factor and certainly not a meaningless one but there are plenty others too. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your question.

i'm gonna let ur own words answer ur own question:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time. By outspending everyone by more than any GM has in any sport, he increased his odds of winning a championship by 600%.

the point is that it's NOT a level playing field



the topic is the uneven playing field argument that you're reasoning is why the Yankees have an unfair operating advantage over other teams that increases their chances of winning a championship according to you... first of all, having a smart GM, good health & luck have nothing to do w/an uneven playing field argument... every team in baseball has the ability to hire a smart GM that has nothing to do w/enjoying an unfair advantage over other teams, & good health & luck are completely random factors... so again i'll ask u what advantages do the Yankees enjoy that other teams don't that account for all the championships they've won in your eyes other than the money they've spent? & why haven't other teams that have spent a lot on building their teams or play in the same exact market as the Yankees do over the years won nearly as many as the Yankees have over their franchise's history?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  7:21 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

please explain these other factors then you're referring to that account for this uneven playing field other than money spent by big market teams.
huh? Are you asking what factors other than money impact a team's success? Having a smart GM, having some good health and good luck. I'm sure we could come up with a long list. Money is one factor and certainly not a meaningless one but there are plenty others too. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your question.

i'm gonna let ur own words answer ur own question:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time. By outspending everyone by more than any GM has in any sport, he increased his odds of winning a championship by 600%.

the point is that it's NOT a level playing field



the topic is the uneven playing field argument that you're reasoning is why the Yankees have an unfair operating advantage over other teams that increases their chances of winning a championship according to you... first of all, having a smart GM, good health & luck have nothing to do w/an uneven playing field argument... every team in baseball has the ability to hire a smart GM that has nothing to do w/enjoying an unfair advantage over other teams, & good health & luck are completely random factors... so again i'll ask u what advantages do the Yankees enjoy that other teams don't that account for all the championships they've won in your eyes other than the money they've spent? & why haven't other teams that have spent a lot on building their teams or play in the same exact market as the Yankees do over the years won nearly as many as the Yankees have over their franchise's history?
Unfair advantage(s): spending (as indicated the post you quoted)
next question please

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 7:22 PM]
TMS
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12/27/2008  7:23 PM
& i repeat:

so the Boston Red Sox had been playing on an uneven playing field for 86 years before they finally won a championship? they play in probably the second largest sports market in baseball... what's their excuse? the Yankees didn't win every single WS ring during those years... why haven't the LA Dodgers or Angels won more WS championships when they play in huge sports markets? what's the Mets' excuse for not winning more than 2 championships since their franchise's inception, they play in the same market as the Yankees too, shouldn't they have won at the same rate as the Yankees have over that same time span according to your logic?

you're making excuses for teams that don't win other than the Yankees because of an uneven playing field, & yet whenever the discussion shifts over to the Yankees side you blame their inept management for not winning one the past few years... how about giving a little credit to the Yankees for a change for their unprecedented success over the history of their franchise? my guess is you've never experienced any of the lean years following the Yankees during other decades when making the playoffs was not necessarily a given... all you're used to watching are the dynasty teams of the mid-late 90s... those types of dynasty teams are few & far between... u can't expect to have that type of run of success every few years... the last time we had a team that could repeat as WS champions & progress far into the playoffs was in the mid 70s-early 80s... we had a run of 13 consecutive seasons without even making the playoffs in the 80s before this team finally got into postseason play in '95, & here you are complaining when the Yankees fail to progress past the 1st round in the playoffs for 4 years... you woulda probably had a heart attack by now had you been a fan of this team during those lean years... winning has been cyclical during the Yankees' history & that's how it will continue to be.

right now this team is poised to get back to its winning ways w/a stacked lineup & a stacked pitching rotation... we have a new generation of young talent that is poised to come into their own in the coming years... the Yankees ownership & management deserve a ton of credit for building that pipeline of young talent & for putting this current team together as they do for their incredible run of success they've been able to sustain over their franchise's history, i don't care how much money they have to spend in comparison to other teams... just spending money won't bring you success necessarily, go ask how many championships the Orioles won when they spent all those big bucks to put together their teams of the 90s... the Cubs, Mets, Dodgers & Giants spent huge bucks putting their teams together for a while now & have nothing to show for it either... as a self proclaimed Yankee fan i would expect you to realize that disappointing years will happen but you can be sure this franchise won't rest until they're back on top with that championship trophy instead of complaining about inept management every year they're not.
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Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  7:27 PM
And I repeat
All those "counter"-examples can be explained by the fact that money spent is merely one of MANY factors that determine how many games a team wins. Why is it that you always come up with counter examples that don't counter anything I've ever said?
Explain to me where you got confused with this answer. When I said "many factors" did you make the incorrect inference that all the factors somehow related to an unlevel playing field? Maybe the Red Sox spent money but had bad decision-making or bad luck or whatever. The fact that you're even asking the question indicates that you still think I'm saying "money is the only factor that impacts wins."
TMS
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12/27/2008  7:43 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

And I repeat
All those "counter"-examples can be explained by the fact that money spent is merely one of MANY factors that determine how many games a team wins. Why is it that you always come up with counter examples that don't counter anything I've ever said?
Explain to me where you got confused with this answer. When I said "many factors" did you make the incorrect inference that all the factors somehow related to an unlevel playing field? Maybe the Red Sox spent money but had bad decision-making or bad luck or whatever. The fact that you're even asking the question indicates that you still think I'm saying "money is the only factor that impacts wins."

no, i'm asking how in the hell you can arbitrarily quantify how the Yankees have been able to increase their odds of winning a championship by 600% simply by outspending other teams like u said they did? i've consistently told u that many other factors go into winning championships than just spending the big bucks many times in this thread & on other forums, so please don't even try & pretend like that's been your argument this entire time.

u refuse to give the Yankees' management any credit for their past run of success because according to you they enjoy an unfair spending advantage that other teams don't... then you use the same argument to bash on Yankees' management when they fail to make it far into the playoffs... so why are you a Yankees fan again? a Yankees fan that cries about their unfair spending advantage is like a millionaire that complains about the free market system.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:01 PM
no, i'm asking how in the hell you can arbitrarily quantify how the Yankees have been able to increase their odds of winning a championship by 600% simply by outspending other teams like u said they did? i've consistently told u that many other factors go into winning championships than just spending the big bucks many times in this thread & on other forums, so please don't even try & pretend like that's been your argument this entire time.
It has been my argument the whole time. You've just refused to see it.
u refuse to give the Yankees' management any credit for their past run of success
Not true
then you use the same argument to bash on Yankees' management when they fail to make it far into the playoffs
If by "Yankees Management" you mean "Cashman," then I agree. If you mean something other than "Cashman," please so indicate.
so why are you a Yankees fan again?
Why am I not? And why are you?
A Yankees fan that cries about their unfair spending advantage is like a millionaire that complains about the free market system.
It's rare but some people actually have such strong moral convictions that they'll stand up for fairness even in the face of their self-interests. The closest recent parallel might be wealthy people supporting Obama's tax plan. It can happen even if it's inconceivable to people who equate morality with self-interest.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 8:02 PM]
TMS
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12/27/2008  8:09 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
no, i'm asking how in the hell you can arbitrarily quantify how the Yankees have been able to increase their odds of winning a championship by 600% simply by outspending other teams like u said they did? i've consistently told u that many other factors go into winning championships than just spending the big bucks many times in this thread & on other forums, so please don't even try & pretend like that's been your argument this entire time.
It has been my argument the whole time. You've just refused to see it.
u refuse to give the Yankees' management any credit for their past run of success
Not true
then you use the same argument to bash on Yankees' management when they fail to make it far into the playoffs
If by "Yankees Management" you mean "Cashman," then I agree. If you mean something other than "Cashman," please so indicate.
so why are you a Yankees fan again?
Why am I not? And why are you?
A Yankees fan that cries about their unfair spending advantage is like a millionaire that complains about the free market system.
It's rare but some people actually have such strong moral convictions that they'll stand up for fairness even in the face of their self-interests. The closest recent parallel might be wealthy people supporting Obama's tax plan. It can happen even if it's inconceivable to people who equate morality with self-interest.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 8:02 PM]

so then what the hell was that nonsense all about w/increasing our chances of winning championships by 600% by outspending other teams all about? stop making these types of over-generalizing statements if u don't got any backups for your own arguments.

& if you're gonna bash on Cashman for not getting this team far into the playoffs the past few years why won't u give him any credit for the 3 championships & 5 world series appearances he's helped to bring in years prior? everytime that argument comes up u tell me how any GM could have achieved the same level of success w/the "unlimited payroll" that the Yankees have.

gimme a break w/ur soap box preaching about morality & ethics... the Yankees operate under the rules of baseball... if u don't like it, go root for another team.
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Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:13 PM
You're getting really repetitive TMS; I'll just briefly address your statements because I've addressed each one many times. Scroll through the previous 96 pages of these threads if you want more detailed answers. I've addressed the 600% twice and am not going to again. You have a mouse and a keyboard, right? You can scroll through the previous posts.
& if you're gonna bash on Cashman for not getting this team far into the playoffs the past few years why won't u give him any credit for the 3 championships & 5 world series appearances
Those were mostly teams he inherited
the Yankees operate under the rules of baseball... if u don't like it, go root for another team.
I've never criticized the Yankees for capitalizing on the system and I don't see what rooting for another would do. I'll repeat: I cannot flip flop teams; maybe your attachment to teams is weak enough that you can but I cannot. I love the Yankees anyway and would have no reason to switch teams. Yankee message board fans who think their GM is perfect and the league is on a completely level playing field are another story but I do love the team.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 8:15 PM]
TMS
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12/27/2008  8:25 PM
Cashman inherited all those teams? oh really... why don't u do me a favor & go back & read up on all 96 pages of the times i've explained to you already how Cashman has helped to build those championship teams... you have a mouse & keyboard too i assume, don't u? i don't have any more time to waste with someone who just refuses to get the facts straight.

& dude, i've been a fan of this team for 32 years, a LOT longer than you, & have been through a lot more & have seen a lot more when it comes to this franchise & i'm not the one crying about unfair playing fields here, so please don't even bother questioning my loyalty to this team.
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Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:26 PM
That was fun. 'Til next time.
TMS
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12/27/2008  8:28 PM
dude, don't think this is a joke... if u don't wanna have a logical discussion & acknowledge facts then stop wasting my time.
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Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:32 PM
I'm choosing not to continue responding to distortions of or outright lies about my views. Sorry.
jaydh
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12/27/2008  9:25 PM
Posted by TMS:
the Yankees operate under the rules of baseball...

does that take into account the draft?
TMS
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12/27/2008  9:32 PM
here is a list of all the players that Cashman has acquired either via trade or free agency that have helped this team either win a WS championship, win the AL Pennant, or at least get to the ALCS since he took over in '98 to the last time the Yankees were there in '04 (the benchmark that you seem to be using to determine a successful season):

Chuck Knoblauch
Scott Brosius
El Duque
Roger Clemens
Alfonso Soriano
Jose Vizcaino
David Justice
Glenallen Hill
Luis Sojo
Robin Ventura
Ruben Sierra
Karim Garcia
David Dellucci
Gabe White
Aaron Boone
Scott Proctor
Jeff Nelson
Alex Rodriguez
Tanyon Sturtze
Gary Sheffield
Hideki Matsui
Tom Gordon
Jason Giambi
Mike Mussina
Mike Stanton
Felix Rodriguez


here is a list of all the notable promising prospects & young talent that have been added to this franchise ever since Cashman took over as the GM that are either currently playing on the team or still in the pipeline of farm talent:

Joba Chamberlain
Brian Bruney
Phil Hughes
Ian Kennedy
Chien Ming Wang
Robinson Cano
Melky Cabrera
Humberto Sanchez
Andrew Brachman
Brett Gardner
Austin Jackson
Jose Veras
Edwar Ramirez
Juan Miranda
Dellin Betances
Christian Garcia
Mark Melancon
Justin Christian
JB Cox
Alan Horne
Jesus Montero
David Robertson

I suppose Cashman inherited all these players too? yeah sure, he doesn't deserve any credit for putting those teams together... anyone w/an unlimited checkbook coulda done better, right Bonn? please.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
islesfan
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12/27/2008  11:10 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
the Yankees operate under the rules of baseball...

does that take into account the draft?

Huh? What rules are the Yankees breaking when it comes to the draft?

Facts would be nice.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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12/27/2008  11:14 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

And I repeat
All those "counter"-examples can be explained by the fact that money spent is merely one of MANY factors that determine how many games a team wins. Why is it that you always come up with counter examples that don't counter anything I've ever said?
Explain to me where you got confused with this answer. When I said "many factors" did you make the incorrect inference that all the factors somehow related to an unlevel playing field? Maybe the Red Sox spent money but had bad decision-making or bad luck or whatever. The fact that you're even asking the question indicates that you still think I'm saying "money is the only factor that impacts wins."

Now why would anybody think that?
By outspending everyone by more than any GM has in any sport, he increased his odds of winning a championship by 600%.

Oh yeah, that's why.

You're horrible at this Bonn, your argument is all over the place and it keeps changing to suit your needs.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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12/28/2008  7:18 AM
By outspending everyone by more than any GM has in any sport, he increased his odds of winning a championship by 600%.
You're conveniently ignoring what I've said in the 97 pages of this thread and focusing on that one sentence but you're also right that in that one instance I didn't remember to state that other factors can be involved too. I added "In part" right before the "by outspending..." just now. If you've paid attention throughout this thread, and I know you haven't since you've been banned and/or MIA for much of it, you'd know that my position has consistently been that spending creates an unlevel playing field but is still one of many factors that impact winning.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-28-2008 07:39 AM]
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