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Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  9:05 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by mattshaw78:

I said this in the other thread but I have to say it hear too:

It is crazy thinking by these yankees haters out there. How many ballclubs actually pool all their revenues and dispurse it back to win games for the franchise. Is it pure jealously by yankee haters 'cause their teams don't pull all their allocated resources back into the ball club? Any fan would love their team to invest in ball players to help them win.
All these Yankee haters saying "the yankees buy their world championships" B.S. Just because the yankees sign free agents left and right doesn't mean that we bought the WS. Good example is the 2yrs that the marlins won the world series and the last world series as tampa bay could've won it all. The Marlins last year had a team payroll of like 20 million.
Those counter-examples prove nothing other than that Cash-man tried but failed to buy championships in those prior years. I'm a Yankee fan who watches nearly all the games but I'll freely admit that we *try* to buy championships.

You are totally wrong dude! You don't get it. It is a sport first of all, that has become a competitive business over the years and a market like this needs to survive in. The Yankees are nothing like the loser Knicks! The Knicks are the perfect example of what 'NOT' to do. Look at the Knicks now. What are they' about 2, 3 games above .500 LIFETIME?! The Yankees have above .500 records against every major league baseball team they ever played. If the last 32 years didn't teach you a lesson then nothing will (of course without the George's meddlings).

And where were the Yankees after the last big dynasty ended with Yogi and Mantle, before George came along? We were mediocre. Owned by CBS who didn't do a thing to restore Yankee lore. George made us matter again and has put us into the future of competitiveness.

I agree with every word you wrote but I don't see how it's connected to the statement I made that you're replying to.
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  9:08 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by mattshaw78:

I said this in the other thread but I have to say it hear too:

It is crazy thinking by these yankees haters out there. How many ballclubs actually pool all their revenues and dispurse it back to win games for the franchise. Is it pure jealously by yankee haters 'cause their teams don't pull all their allocated resources back into the ball club? Any fan would love their team to invest in ball players to help them win.
All these Yankee haters saying "the yankees buy their world championships" B.S. Just because the yankees sign free agents left and right doesn't mean that we bought the WS. Good example is the 2yrs that the marlins won the world series and the last world series as tampa bay could've won it all. The Marlins last year had a team payroll of like 20 million.

I am sick and tired of these Yankee haters. Stop worry about the Yanks and worry why in hell your team can't win it all half the time as the Yankees. And also ask yourself the luxury tax where the hell does it go for the other teams

Not to mention, in George's 32 years as principle owner and the millions upon millions he spent, he only was able to produce only 6 championship teams. That's about 19 %. Hardly a buy.

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time. By outspending everyone by more than any GM has in any sport, he increased his odds of winning a championship by 600%.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 5:18 PM]

And yet we only won 19% under George. 600%?!? You just proved that we don't buy them!

Yes, 600% as in a six fold increase. I don't think you follow the math because I just proved the opposite of what you thought I proved. I don't think you understand the difference between "buying championships" and "trying to buy championships." There's a world of difference between the two. The Yankees do the latter, not the former. To a lesser extent, the Mets and Red Sox do the latter as well.
Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  9:08 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't
Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  9:13 PM
You know you've scratched something truthful and hurtful when people get this defensive about your statements. I'm convinced you two are incorrectly thinking that I'm blaming the Yankees though somewhere and you need to defend them against some (mis)perceived blame.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 9:17 PM]
Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  9:16 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by mattshaw78:

I said this in the other thread but I have to say it hear too:

It is crazy thinking by these yankees haters out there. How many ballclubs actually pool all their revenues and dispurse it back to win games for the franchise. Is it pure jealously by yankee haters 'cause their teams don't pull all their allocated resources back into the ball club? Any fan would love their team to invest in ball players to help them win.
All these Yankee haters saying "the yankees buy their world championships" B.S. Just because the yankees sign free agents left and right doesn't mean that we bought the WS. Good example is the 2yrs that the marlins won the world series and the last world series as tampa bay could've won it all. The Marlins last year had a team payroll of like 20 million.
Those counter-examples prove nothing other than that Cash-man tried but failed to buy championships in those prior years. I'm a Yankee fan who watches nearly all the games but I'll freely admit that we *try* to buy championships. It's the league's fault (not the Yankees') for having that kind of system in place but fans look like they have their heads in the sand when they won't admit what we (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Mets and Red Sox) are doing. We certainly weren't trying to buy another 3rd place finish with the $423 mil spent this off-season! What exactly besides a championship were we trying to buy? Whether we'll succeed is a separate story. This is the only sport with this degree of payroll inequity. It sucks for fans outside of NY and Boston. That's not my problem but I'm a sympathetic guy and I have tons of sympathy for frustrated fans throughout the US and Canada.

if u have so much sympathy for them then go root for another team... i swear to God you're freakin' annoying w/your constant negative talk about the franchise you supposedly support... at least islesfan knows what the hell he's talking about when he disses the Knicks... you don't even have your facts straight & you diss on them... name me 1 major market team in baseball that doesn't try to "buy their way to a championship" as you would call it... go root for the damn Royals or Pirates & then hate on the Yankees all u want... any Yankee fan that complains about their financial advantage is beyond stupid.
Chill pill time. I can't change teams as easily as perhaps you can; so that's not something I'd even consider. I agree 100% that other teams in major markets try to buy championships; in all other sports, there are salary restrictions that prevent them from being able to do that. You CAN'T expect the owner to do that on their own. I attribute no blame to the Yankees for trying to capitalize on an unfair system. I bolded this above to make it as clear as possible. Any negativity I've attributed to the Yankees for having a high payroll is a figment of your imagination.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 5:08 PM]

You'd still be making a big mistake for taking sides. I thought you were a stand up Yankee fan. I'm disappointed.

Sorry I do not follow what you're saying. What side do you think I'm taking? On what issue? How am I not a stand up Yankee fan? What is a "stand up" fan anyway? I'm usually sitting down when I watch and root for the Yankees. You've totally confused me.
Bonn1997
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12/26/2008  10:25 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by GKFv2:

Calling Steinbrenner's ownership a failure is a joke. Most teams can't even win 1 title in 85 years(Red Sox) or 1 in 100(Cubs). Yankees won 6 in his 32 years. Unless you think he should have won every year he was owner, I'd say that's a pretty damn good number of titles for an owner.

Good one G! Hey BONN, how do you explain the scrubs????????? Did we do that too? How do you explain the white sux? Did we do them wrong to??? And how bout those red sux??? Don't tell me that we robbed them too of more w.s. than us, by taking the Babe away. The guy they themselves wanted to give to us? You think I feel sorry for any of those losers?
I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain or why you're asking me to explain it. Can you re-ask your question? There are plenty of bad, poorly run teams in this sport and any other sport. Is that all you were asking about?



[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 10:27 PM]
islesfan
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12/26/2008  11:20 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

Tell that to Cubs fans.

I know a couple of bookies that would love you as a client.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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12/26/2008  11:27 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

You know you've scratched something truthful and hurtful when people get this defensive about your statements. I'm convinced you two are incorrectly thinking that I'm blaming the Yankees though somewhere and you need to defend them against some (mis)perceived blame.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 9:17 PM]

No, not the Yankees, just Cashman and the moves he's made on behalf of the Yankees.

How often do you think the Yankees should win championships? How often in a decade? Maybe that would clear up the perception that you have ridiculous expectations. Actually the fact that you expect championships is the problem. I, for one, just expect them to be very competitive with their financial advantage and I celebrate and appreciate division titles, AL Pennants and World Series Championships because I know that they're earned on the field and not bought.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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12/27/2008  2:54 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

how isn't it a gambler's fallacy? a roulette wheel has 38 numbers... under your logic here, spinning the wheel 38 times should result in each number coming up at least once... that's not how it works in reality... each independent spin gives u an equal chance of each number coming up during that spin, but in reality you can spin the wheel 38 times & get the same # 38 times... 1 spin has no correlation to the next in increasing the chances of any single # coming up for you.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-27-2008 12:34 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:37 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

You know you've scratched something truthful and hurtful when people get this defensive about your statements. I'm convinced you two are incorrectly thinking that I'm blaming the Yankees though somewhere and you need to defend them against some (mis)perceived blame.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-26-2008 9:17 PM]

No, not the Yankees, just Cashman and the moves he's made on behalf of the Yankees.
Yes, they're two entirely separate topics. I don't blame Cashman *for spending money* but rather for *how* he's spent money.

How often do I expect championships? I don't even expect them. I just expect a team that will be competitive in both the regular season and the playoffs and it's been a long time since we had the latter.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:43 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

how isn't it a gambler's fallacy? a roulette wheel has 38 numbers... under your logic here, spinning the wheel 38 times should result in each number coming up at least once...
Expecting any one team to win a championship once every 30 years is NOT the same as expecting each team to win the championship once every 30 years. The former statement indicates that if you have no other info. about the team, let's say all your told is this is team "X" and are asked, "if we have 30 teams playing on a level playing field, then in a 30 year span, how many championships do you expect the team to win," the best answer to give is "one." If any of the conditions I built into the statement (30 teams, 30 years, or as in the case of baseball, a level playing field) are not met, then the statement would not apply.

Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  8:46 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

Tell that to Cubs fans.

I know a couple of bookies that would love you as a client.
Right; the point is that it's NOT a level playing field and the one cchampionship in thirty statement does not apply. I don't think you read the entire discussion between me and 4949. It looks like you (and TMS) joined in at the point where you quoted me and are misunderstanding the (bolded) premise of my statement. All I'd tell Cubs' fans is that the premise of my conditional statement is not met. Are you disagreeing with that? If not, then what's your point?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 09:01 AM]
Finestrg
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12/27/2008  2:23 PM
I wonder if there's anymore room to bring back Andy? Just read the Giants signed Randy Johnson to a one-year, $8 mil. dollar deal. Look for Andy to jump on the $10 million now - if it's even still on the table.
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  2:43 PM
Posted by Finestrg:

I wonder if there's anymore room to bring back Andy? Just read the Giants signed Randy Johnson to a one-year, $8 mil. dollar deal. Look for Andy to jump on the $10 million now - if it's even still on the table.

There should be plenty of room. We have a new, money-making stadium and we're about $25 mil below last year's payroll. If they could afford last year's payroll, they should be able to afford Manny AND Andy this year with the new stadium and a team that's likely to make and go deep in the playoffs.
islesfan
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12/27/2008  4:34 PM
Bonn, kindly tell us the differences in the U.S. Ecomony from last year to this year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  5:30 PM
Fair enough. We don't know whether the downturn in the economy outweighs the money they'd get from the new stadium and making it farther in the playoffs. They have spent $423 mil so far but I suppose it's possible that they put a spending cap of around $423 rather than around $500 (after adding Manny).


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 5:32 PM]
Bonn1997
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12/27/2008  5:34 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Bonn, kindly tell us the differences in the U.S. Ecomony from last year to this year.

Oh, did I speak kindly enough for you in the last reply? What kindness level did you have in mind? Will this help you? I can try to find some more pictures to cheer you up.

jaydh
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12/27/2008  5:36 PM
Posted by 4949:

I wonder how BONN would explain how we won the first 20 world series also?

Ever hear of Arnold Johnson? That should explain the 2 WS titles in the 60s.
TMS
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12/27/2008  5:44 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

In a league with 30 teams on a completely level playing field, you'd expect any one team to win a championship once every 30 years or 3% of the time.

that's like the classic gambler's fallacy logic at work there.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-26-2008 2:34 PM]
Except it isn't

Tell that to Cubs fans.

I know a couple of bookies that would love you as a client.
Right; the point is that it's NOT a level playing field and the one cchampionship in thirty statement does not apply. I don't think you read the entire discussion between me and 4949. It looks like you (and TMS) joined in at the point where you quoted me and are misunderstanding the (bolded) premise of my statement. All I'd tell Cubs' fans is that the premise of my conditional statement is not met. Are you disagreeing with that? If not, then what's your point?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-27-2008 09:01 AM]

so the Boston Red Sox had been playing on an uneven playing field for 86 years before they finally won a championship? they play in probably the second largest sports market in baseball... what's their excuse? the Yankees didn't win every single WS ring during those years... why haven't the LA Dodgers or Angels won more WS championships when they play in huge sports markets? what's the Mets' excuse for not winning more than 2 championships since their franchise's inception, they play in the same market as the Yankees too, shouldn't they have won at the same rate as the Yankees have over that same time span according to your logic?

you're making excuses for teams that don't win other than the Yankees because of an uneven playing field, & yet whenever the discussion shifts over to the Yankees side you blame their inept management for not winning one the past few years... how about giving a little credit to the Yankees for a change for their unprecedented success over the history of their franchise? my guess is you've never experienced any of the lean years following the Yankees during other decades when making the playoffs was not necessarily a given... all you're used to watching are the dynasty teams of the mid-late 90s... those types of dynasty teams are few & far between... u can't expect to have that type of run of success every few years... the last time we had a team that could repeat as WS champions & progress far into the playoffs was in the mid 70s-early 80s... we had a run of 13 consecutive seasons without even making the playoffs in the 80s before this team finally got into postseason play in '95, & here you are complaining when the Yankees fail to progress past the 1st round in the playoffs for 4 years... you woulda probably had a heart attack by now had you been a fan of this team during those lean years... winning has been cyclical during the Yankees' history & that's how it will continue to be.

right now this team is poised to get back to its winning ways w/a stacked lineup & a stacked pitching rotation... we have a new generation of young talent that is poised to come into their own in the coming years... the Yankees ownership & management deserve a ton of credit for building that pipeline of young talent & for putting this current team together as they do for their incredible run of success they've been able to sustain over their franchise's history, i don't care how much money they have to spend in comparison to other teams... just spending money won't bring you success necessarily, go ask how many championships the Orioles won when they spent all those big bucks to put together their teams of the 90s... the Cubs, Mets, Dodgers & Giants spent huge bucks putting their teams together for a while now & have nothing to show for it either... as a self proclaimed Yankee fan i would expect you to realize that disappointing years will happen but you can be sure this franchise won't rest until they're back on top with that championship trophy instead of complaining about inept management every year they're not.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
jaydh
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12/27/2008  5:48 PM
It's funny because there is an article on RealGM about how the league was not fair for a very long time and that only big market teams had a chance because of their spending and that small market teams had less than a 5% chance. Supposedly something was done about this in 2000.
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