holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:Not saying Monroe is a lock. In fact the Draft will impact who we sign cuz no way we sign Monroe if we draft OK4. My point is that Monroe is not as bad as he looks in Detroit. He's not being used properly. If we did sign him I'd expect him to be more efficient and a much better fit in our system.

U want to bet 16 mil per cap space on that opinion?

I think Monroe would be a good piece if we don't add OK4 in the draft. On Detroit in their system Monroe is 16 ppg 10 Reb 2 asts. I think he'll be better than that in NY because this system puts the ball in the Big Man's hands more often and with more of a purpose. He'll get more touches in the low post where he's most effective. He'll have more passing options and may get more offensive rebound opportunities playing close to the basket.

SEASON	TEAM GP GS  MIN	  FGM-A	    FG%	  3PM-A	  3P%	FTM-A	FT%   OR  DR  REB   AST  BLK  STL  PF  TO   PTS
'14-'15	 DET 69	57  31.0  6.1-12.4  .496  0.0-0.0 .000	3.7-4.9	.750  3.3 6.9 10.2  2.1  0.5  1.1  2.1 2.2  15.9

I don't see it...Just another guy with no motor or drive, see the Nets..Just going thru the motions..

If we don't get OK4 I would expect that the Knicks will make an offer to Monroe. If we did draft OK4 I think i'd take a chance on Alexis Ajinca who I think has some talent and could give us good production.

However, if you are telling me that Monroe is unable to fit with one of the TOP TIER FUTURE YOUNG CENTERS in Drummond than what is he worth??
I do not think he is a good shot blocker or has the ability to defend some PF's, including stretch 4's
He also lacks the size and shot blocking the play the Center in major minutes

I think Ajinica would fit him best though we would have a problem versus stretch 4's with Monroe, unless we are going to give up OFFENSE for DEFENSE/REBOUNDING/SHOTBLOCKING
Now if we have Monroe at Center and CA at PF, that will not work either, not for our DEFENSE at leaast

In some sense, I compare Monroe to a YOUNG Nene, while he was paired with Camby/Bird Man
He can play some Center and some PF, with the ability to POST and do a bit of EVERYTHING, however, he isn't a MAX player though he is a solid player

Now if we do add Monroe, we will NEED BOTH 1v1 and TEAM DEFENDERS in EVERY OTHER POSITIONS to make up for his weakness's
While Monroe may be the better rebounder than Nene, Nene was also utilized to use the 17 footer and mix up playing inside/outside both, depending on match ups
With that said, Denver has NEVER made a TOP TEAM in their conference, and certainly not a elite player, we would be getting a good player but not a great player, certainly NOT a max player but with the cap going up next year, what will he be worth?

I would much rather have a combination of

Al Horford
Whiteside

Durant

With Ajnicia this summer

I guess it depends who we draft, certainly not OK4 with Monroe...
AB wasn't utilized correctly in Toronto but he was NOT a player to build around, the same could be said for Monroe, he just isn't on the level

In addition, if CA is part of our future or not, as I do not believe in building a team, you cannot have more than 1 weak player in OFFENSE or DEFENSE

Though we can draft Winslow and develop Thanasis to help with rebounding/defense, do we have enough to sign maybe Carroll/Ajinica and Danny Green/Wesley Matthews...

Shved, Russell doesn't seem to be great defenders to me either
Though Galloway could improve to be a Billups type of player...

The Triangle has NEVER won rings WITHOUT multiple dominant threats on both OFFENSE and DEFENSE TOGETHER in ONE player, who will that player be? WIth many great shooters/role players/solid defenders floor spacers/high IQ players

We do not have Shaq, Kobe, MJ, Pippen
We do not have a Pau Gasol, Odom, Ariza type versatility on both OFFENSE and DEFENSE

We do not have Kukoc, Rodman, Bynum, Horry,

While Mudiay has the higher ceiling in terms of DEFENSE than Russell, Russell seems like the safer SCORER while Mudiay could be a Tyrke Evans...
Mario Hezonja has GREAT size, athleticism, ability to score/shoot/penetrate

If we get a TOP pick, I would not mind trading down if we can still draft one of the TOP 5, great if we can draft 2 TOP 10.... maybe Mario would drop
Unless we are able to trade CA, get 2 top 10 picks, and utilize how cap space to fill in the rest of our roster, while concentrating on development in the next 2years, waiting till the rise of the cap in 2017 to fill in the rest of the blanks, I do not see how we can become a LEGIT Championship contender, while STARs CHOOSING to come in 2017

Unless we win the battle of RFA with Kawaii Leanard and Draymond Green which I think is unlikely....

Without relying on RFA's
IF NOT maybe, I would say SPREAD THE THE MONEY FOR

Trade down, to acquire more assets if a team will overpay... draft

Towns/OK4

Justice Winslow
Russell
Mario Henzonja *probably most likely to drop with the most upside if we can acquire more assets in the process*
Mudiay

Kristaps Porzingis
Kaminski
WCS

Instead of overpaying for ANY 1 FA, how about dividing it all up and build a DEEP team
A little over 20m - 25m to spend + 6m MLE, depending on who we draft and possibly resigning Shved to under the qualfying offer from 2.5m-3m with Sessions/Bayless/Augistine to a 2year deal as a guide with the possiblity to earn a starting spot in training camp

Ajinicia
Danny Green/Wesley Matthewws, MAYBE BOTH if we can spread it all out, if not Wesley Johnson/Gereld Green,
DeMarre Carroll/Jae Croweder/Casspi

if possible, if we do not resign Shved if we draft a PG, maybe Brandon Wright/Bass depending on how we spend the money above
Lavoy Allen/Ed Davis/Serephin/AB

MLE with Cole Aldrich resigned with early bird rights to get MLE

Danny Green/Wesley Matthewws

*theory... with Ajinica, the lane will always be open to penetrate or WIDE OPEN 3pter*

Shved/Galloway,
Mario Henzonja/Justice Winslow/ if Russell and Mudiay would play PG, m
Danny Green/Carroll/Wesley Matthews
CA
Ajinicia

IF
Russell/Mudiay
Danny Green
Wesley Matthews/Carroll *depending on match up with Carrol defending the BIGS*
CA
Ajinicia

Carroll
Galloway/ lower offer for Shved if we draft a PG if not let him walk or trade if 2.2m isn't enough
Thanasis
Orlando Sanchez
Cole ALdrich
Lavoy Allen/Ed Davis/Serephin

consider trades for
Meyers Leanard for Houston's 2nd rounders and a future 1st rounder for their 1st rounder this year and Meyers Leanard so they can resign most of their UFA's in Portland

2 2nd rounders and Tony Wroten and Covington/Thomas/ for Tim Hardway/Early and 1st rounder

bench
=======
Galloway
Thanasis
Wesley Johnson
Orlando Sanchez
Cole Aldrich

Serephin/Lavoy Allen/Ed Davis

2 = 2nd rounders/UFA

Targets in 2017 of

Durant/Whiteside/Horford/Pau Gasol/Noah as our targets
RFA's of DMO/Terrence Jones in Houston
Wilson Chandler/Gallo/Battumm
Randy Foye

Justin Holiday/Tyler Johnson/James Johnson

Bench while adding the proper development coaches

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2429760-new-york-knicks-going-all-out-for-greg-monroe-would-be-the-wrong-move

New York Knicks Going All out for Greg Monroe Would Be the Wrong Move
By Dan Favale , Featured Columnist Apr 13, 2015

....................

Monroe is, without question, an upgrade over anyone the Knicks have playing up front at the moment. He's averaging a career-high 16.0 points and 10.3 rebounds per game, and he passes well for a big man, making him an attractive fit for the famed triangle offense New York is attempting to mimic. He's also never posted a player efficiency rating below 18.

Or made a three-pointer.

Or been viewed as a strong defensive presence.

Or made the playoffs.

Or effectively proved he's worth the max contract his agent is after.

....................

Even if Jackson remains enamored with the triangle, as Isola posits, Monroe falls somewhere in the middle of the pictures being painted. He's only 24, but he's been in the NBA for five years, and it doesn't reflect well on him that the Pistons have yet to reach 35 victories during that time.

Nor does he project as the post presence the Knicks need, irrespective of whether they're still bent on implementing the triangle.

More than 41 percent of Monroe's offensive touches come in the form of post-ups, and he ranks fifth in total back-to-the-basket possessions. But he's shooting just 43.6 percent in such situations, and his 0.86 points per post possession don't even crack the 60th percentile.

For comparison's sake, players like Kevin Love and LaMarcus Aldridge rank inside the 80th percentile. The idea that the Knicks would be getting a superior post player is sorely mistaken.

Things don't get any better on pick-and-rolls. The Knicks admittedly don't run them much, but if your power forward or center isn't going to space the floor, you want him to be a lethal pick-and-roll finisher. Monroe, however, isn't even in the 50th percentile there.

As for potential floor-spacing snafus, they matter. The Knicks don't shoot nearly enough threes, and they seldom run smaller lineups with stretch 4s, but the NBA is trending in that direction.

Older teams like the San Antonio Spurs balance pounding the rock down low with faster, three-point-friendly lineups. The league-best Golden State Warriors are a positionless masterpiece. Monroe, meanwhile, doesn't shoot treys, and just 7.8 percent of his total shots come from outside 10 feet, of which he's hitting just 34.4 percent.

Equally underwhelming, Monroe isn't an elite defender. Opponents are converting buckets at above-average clips when Monroe guards them, and he cannot protect the rim at all.

Of the 121 players contesting at least four point-blank opportunities per game, Monroe ranks 101st in opponent's field-goal percentage. That puts him behind noted non-rim protectors such as Kelly Olynyk, Kenneth Faried, Dirk Nowitzki, Zach Randolph and Love, among so many others.

The Knicks don't have the necessary defensive stopper to cover for Monroe. Their main building block, Carmelo Anthony, is a spotty defender at best, and they have just four players under guaranteed contracts for next season, per Basketball Insiders.

Committing to Monroe is, by extension, a commitment to awful defense or the search for complementary pieces who hide his shortcomings—none of which is ideal, as Adi Joseph writes for the Sporting News:

Monroe is an excellent offensive player, even though the Pistons wasted his passing ability. He'd be a good fit in the triangle offense. But his defense is a major issue, and the Knicks already have a defense-impaired superstar in Carmelo Anthony. Throw in a rookie — guards D'Angelo Russell and Emmanuel Mudiay also are potential Knicks picks at the top of the draft — and the defense could be historically bad.

Beyond that, which position does Monroe play? Ideally, he would be paired with an athletic and aggressive power forward. Put him next to Thunder big man Serge Ibaka, who keeps the post open with his rangy offensive game but flies in to block shots on defense, and Monroe would thrive. Pelicans star Anthony Davis can play a similar role. Those players are not easy to find, though.

Monroe would eat up a hefty chunk of the Knicks' available salary-cap space, he could prove redundant depending on whom they draft, and he ensures Anthony will never return to power forward, where he is statistically better off, according to 82games.com.

....................

stopstandthere wrote:Interesting articles on Monroe:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2429760-new-york-knicks-going-all-out-for-greg-monroe-would-be-the-wrong-move

New York Knicks Going All out for Greg Monroe Would Be the Wrong Move
By Dan Favale , Featured Columnist Apr 13, 2015

....................

Monroe is, without question, an upgrade over anyone the Knicks have playing up front at the moment. He's averaging a career-high 16.0 points and 10.3 rebounds per game, and he passes well for a big man, making him an attractive fit for the famed triangle offense New York is attempting to mimic. He's also never posted a player efficiency rating below 18.

Or made a three-pointer.

Or been viewed as a strong defensive presence.

Or made the playoffs.

Or effectively proved he's worth the max contract his agent is after.

....................

Even if Jackson remains enamored with the triangle, as Isola posits, Monroe falls somewhere in the middle of the pictures being painted. He's only 24, but he's been in the NBA for five years, and it doesn't reflect well on him that the Pistons have yet to reach 35 victories during that time.

Nor does he project as the post presence the Knicks need, irrespective of whether they're still bent on implementing the triangle.

More than 41 percent of Monroe's offensive touches come in the form of post-ups, and he ranks fifth in total back-to-the-basket possessions. But he's shooting just 43.6 percent in such situations, and his 0.86 points per post possession don't even crack the 60th percentile.

For comparison's sake, players like Kevin Love and LaMarcus Aldridge rank inside the 80th percentile. The idea that the Knicks would be getting a superior post player is sorely mistaken.

Things don't get any better on pick-and-rolls. The Knicks admittedly don't run them much, but if your power forward or center isn't going to space the floor, you want him to be a lethal pick-and-roll finisher. Monroe, however, isn't even in the 50th percentile there.

As for potential floor-spacing snafus, they matter. The Knicks don't shoot nearly enough threes, and they seldom run smaller lineups with stretch 4s, but the NBA is trending in that direction.

Older teams like the San Antonio Spurs balance pounding the rock down low with faster, three-point-friendly lineups. The league-best Golden State Warriors are a positionless masterpiece. Monroe, meanwhile, doesn't shoot treys, and just 7.8 percent of his total shots come from outside 10 feet, of which he's hitting just 34.4 percent.

Equally underwhelming, Monroe isn't an elite defender. Opponents are converting buckets at above-average clips when Monroe guards them, and he cannot protect the rim at all.

Of the 121 players contesting at least four point-blank opportunities per game, Monroe ranks 101st in opponent's field-goal percentage. That puts him behind noted non-rim protectors such as Kelly Olynyk, Kenneth Faried, Dirk Nowitzki, Zach Randolph and Love, among so many others.

The Knicks don't have the necessary defensive stopper to cover for Monroe. Their main building block, Carmelo Anthony, is a spotty defender at best, and they have just four players under guaranteed contracts for next season, per Basketball Insiders.

Committing to Monroe is, by extension, a commitment to awful defense or the search for complementary pieces who hide his shortcomings—none of which is ideal, as Adi Joseph writes for the Sporting News:

Monroe is an excellent offensive player, even though the Pistons wasted his passing ability. He'd be a good fit in the triangle offense. But his defense is a major issue, and the Knicks already have a defense-impaired superstar in Carmelo Anthony. Throw in a rookie — guards D'Angelo Russell and Emmanuel Mudiay also are potential Knicks picks at the top of the draft — and the defense could be historically bad.

Beyond that, which position does Monroe play? Ideally, he would be paired with an athletic and aggressive power forward. Put him next to Thunder big man Serge Ibaka, who keeps the post open with his rangy offensive game but flies in to block shots on defense, and Monroe would thrive. Pelicans star Anthony Davis can play a similar role. Those players are not easy to find, though.

Monroe would eat up a hefty chunk of the Knicks' available salary-cap space, he could prove redundant depending on whom they draft, and he ensures Anthony will never return to power forward, where he is statistically better off, according to 82games.com.

....................

Remember we need to form a Triangle, for floor spacing, for multiple threats in order to take advantage of the % match up, with multiple post threats, shooters, and high % shots, with VERY GOOD DEFENSE/VERSATILITY on OFF AND DEF, and REBOUNDING,

PG BEING ABLE TO SHOOT WIDE OPEN 3's, PENETRATE/FACILITATE, and DEFEND 2 positons AT LEAST, with EVERYONE BEING ABLE to shoot the 3pter, he has to be able to penetrate and finish with contact, or find the open man for the wide open shot

SG and G/F's Justice WInslow, Mario???? He will have an advantage at SG with his size and athleticism, with the ability to shoot over SG's and take it to hole and finish, if we can draft BOTH players, it would really help as we can spend our money elsewhere, even if we had to give a future 1st rounder and even maybe 2 in the process....

Danny Green/Wesley Mattheww/Thanasiss/Wesley Johnson, with our SG and G/F's being able to defend 2-3 positions, rebounding, some shot blocking, hit wide open 3's, and take it to the hole at times

F's
DeMaRRe CaRRoLL/CA, with CaRROLL being the key to defending 2-3 positions, rebounding, some shot blocking

Center
Monroe

Unless Monroe is willing to take less, I do not see how we can do this unless we are able to trade CA, as we cannot have to 2 holes on DEFENSE TOGETHER
IF CA, Morey, and Phil Jackson can make it work, all this is possible, with Memphis 1st rounder this summer, in addition to the assets we get back to move up in the draft to get 2 of the top 10 talents in this draft

This is why Draymond Green and Kawaii Leanard would be very valuable, as they are both DPOY talents, with the ability to post up, and make EVERYTHING better with their skill sets
We would lose SHOT BLOCKING in the process from our PF/C however, if EVERY OTHER POSITION is versatile and very good 1v1 and TEAM defenders, with HIGH IQ in adddition to their talents, it could work

Ajincia could be the one finishing at times with this team as well, especially if we are able to draft Mario/Justice Winslow or 2 TOP 10 talents in this summers draft
They both could take it to the rim, with Ajinicia spacing the floor and other HIGH IQ and versatile talents, in addition to a PG that could penetrate/finish/defend at the a high level

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I've never seen Monroe play with energy and I've seen at least 20-25 games of that dude's NBA career.

Nothing I've ever seen made me think "wow, I want to give this guy a max contract."

He's Juwan Howard minus the jumpshot.

It's not really a max contract due to the cap explosion

It's a max contract for now. If the cap explodes, every team gains cap space. It's not like we gained ground. We'd still be competing against teams that already have players on their rosters at better bargains than Monroe for 16 mil.

We also don't know how they're going to handle the cap jump. Max contracts are 25% of the cap. So Monroe's deal is indeed a max. They could decide that whatever the new cap jumps to, max deals stay 25%. Then all of a sudden you are paying Greg Monroe $22.5M.

Don't think this isn't a possibility - it's exactly what some in the players union are arguing for.

Meanwhile, the owners are planning for the biggest lockout ever because they don't want the cap to go up at all.

None of us can act like we know what the cap will look like in two years because the league is going to go to war over it.

BRIGGS wrote:People are missing the boat on Kanter. What Kanter is is a bigger version of what Zach Randolph does for Memphis--but he can do it better. We take that Zach is just a fair at best one on one defender but what Memphis did was put him into a defensive system with a concept/complimentary players and hes an all star player now. Remember in NY--fans thought he was awful--BUT he had the talent. Same thing with Kanter--the perception that he is less because of his one on one D is ONLY fair. But we can see some great things when altering his location/player personnel around him--mUCH MUCH moreso than I sense Greg Monroe can do. Greg doesnt have the jumpshot which would allow Kanter to play more of a hybrid mobile 4-5(depending on match ups)

Financially if we gave Kanter a max contract WITH a no trade clause it essentially CUTS OKC off at the hand. Then when they have to come up with money to resign Westbrook and Durant--they wont have that ability to move Kanter. You know who likes Kanter--Ive watched a LOT of OKC games--Mike Breen likes him. Mike Breen has done several of their broadcasts and he knows because he said it m a few times He knows basketball he watches it every day up close--he knows the potential this guy has(not even potential--the guy IS a 23/24-13 PF right now most nights)

Kanter's number in OKC were absurd - like when Pau Gasol got traded to the Lakers and started putting up all world numbers at crazy efficiency.

I honestly think OKC will sign Kanter to a reasonable 5 yr deal at like $75M and then look to move Durant or Westbrook.

That team is on the verge of a major shakeup. Starting with the coach. But I think they will decide to part with Westbrook or Durant in the next year.

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:People are missing the boat on Kanter. What Kanter is is a bigger version of what Zach Randolph does for Memphis--but he can do it better. We take that Zach is just a fair at best one on one defender but what Memphis did was put him into a defensive system with a concept/complimentary players and hes an all star player now. Remember in NY--fans thought he was awful--BUT he had the talent. Same thing with Kanter--the perception that he is less because of his one on one D is ONLY fair. But we can see some great things when altering his location/player personnel around him--mUCH MUCH moreso than I sense Greg Monroe can do. Greg doesnt have the jumpshot which would allow Kanter to play more of a hybrid mobile 4-5(depending on match ups)

Financially if we gave Kanter a max contract WITH a no trade clause it essentially CUTS OKC off at the hand. Then when they have to come up with money to resign Westbrook and Durant--they wont have that ability to move Kanter. You know who likes Kanter--Ive watched a LOT of OKC games--Mike Breen likes him. Mike Breen has done several of their broadcasts and he knows because he said it m a few times He knows basketball he watches it every day up close--he knows the potential this guy has(not even potential--the guy IS a 23/24-13 PF right now most nights)

Kanter's number in OKC were absurd - like when Pau Gasol got traded to the Lakers and started putting up all world numbers at crazy efficiency.

I honestly think OKC will sign Kanter to a reasonable 5 yr deal at like $75M and then look to move Durant or Westbrook.

That team is on the verge of a major shakeup. Starting with the coach. But I think they will decide to part with Westbrook or Durant in the next year.

No trade clause and a kicker. No trade clause and a kicker will cut them off at the hand. I don't think they have any intentions of moving Westbrook or Durant--quite the opposite. All OKC fans want Kanter back--if you look at Detroit-most of them dont want Monroe back. If you give Kanter a no trade clause trade kicker and a max contract--you take the pen out of OKC hand. They then have to think about it--think who they want most. We need BOTH a PF and a C--it would be nice if we found 1 player who could take care of all problems but thats hard. If did get Kanter--of IF that was the plan--Id be open to a trade in the draft where we move down and Get WCS IF its backed up with additional assets. If all of a sudden we had Kanter at PF Willie Stein--lets say drafted 8-10 and we back that up with an 18 and 32 pick and add a Bobby Portis/Trey Lyles and a Rashuad Vaughn--then I am highly interested

BRIGGS wrote:

RonRon wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:People are missing the boat on Kanter. What Kanter is is a bigger version of what Zach Randolph does for Memphis--but he can do it better. We take that Zach is just a fair at best one on one defender but what Memphis did was put him into a defensive system with a concept/complimentary players and hes an all star player now. Remember in NY--fans thought he was awful--BUT he had the talent. Same thing with Kanter--the perception that he is less because of his one on one D is ONLY fair. But we can see some great things when altering his location/player personnel around him--mUCH MUCH moreso than I sense Greg Monroe can do. Greg doesnt have the jumpshot which would allow Kanter to play more of a hybrid mobile 4-5(depending on match ups)

Financially if we gave Kanter a max contract WITH a no trade clause it essentially CUTS OKC off at the hand. Then when they have to come up with money to resign Westbrook and Durant--they wont have that ability to move Kanter. You know who likes Kanter--Ive watched a LOT of OKC games--Mike Breen likes him. Mike Breen has done several of their broadcasts and he knows because he said it m a few times He knows basketball he watches it every day up close--he knows the potential this guy has(not even potential--the guy IS a 23/24-13 PF right now most nights)

We do not have Westbrook or the BIGS OKC has though to make up for Kanter's weakness's
Kanter and CA would be 2 holes together, without a WESTBROOK to initiate the OFFENSE on the NYK's and his DEFENSIVE/REBOUNDING/ability to penetrate/finish with contact and versatilile/physical abilities

If we went after Knater--lets say we had pick #3 Id be willing to trade down to get WCS and see if I could pick up an additional PF and SG. I dont like Stein with Monroe but I do with Kanter because Kanter can shoot it from range which would help stein with opportunity offense.

Problem with that is that the draft comes first.

Knicks have to approach the draft as the place to get their building block moving forward and then use FA to complement that.

Kanter is RFA. No matter what you say, I think it is highly likely OKC re-signs him. If you structure all of your plan around getting Kanter and then OKC matches - you are faaacked. Can't do it.

Have to focus on the draft. There's a chance Okafor is even better than Kanter in the post anyway.

Have to see what the draft is first and go from there.