fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

Now your all set to build a team with advanced stats. Meanwhile the biggest advanced stat guy in the league alienated players and let a great advanced stat guy like Parson go for nada to throw himself at Melo's feet. It doesnt add up mate.

gunsnewing wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

Ive said for some teams paying Melo a max deal makes sense. I dont think for the Knicks it does because they dont have the young players or core pieces in place that cancel out overpaying him. The Rockets, Clippers, Heat, 76ers, Cavs, Bulls I get it.

Exactly

The logic seems backwards. We have an asset. Those teams have assets. They want ours. We want theirs. How does having ours keep us from getting theirs? Unless your talking about a multiyear tank?

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

so your plan is butter him up for a sign and trade? Bonn... with all due respect thats a joke. He's walking to the Lakers if thats your plan. Melo has produced pretty well here. He's thinking its not my fault Ray Felton and Bargs where the big roster upgrades and Amare's knees are made of glass. Thanks Bonn... but LAL really wants me. Thanks anyway.

Now your all set to build a team with advanced stats. Meanwhile the biggest advanced stat guy in the league alienated players and let a great advanced stat guy like Parson go for nada to throw himself at Melo's feet. It doesnt add up mate.

I don't know how Morey uses the advanced stats. He's just one person. There's as much diversity in views within the advanced stat community as there is within the eyeball test community. All teams are employing metrics experts now, though, and some probably use the metrics better than Morey does even if the GM isn't the metrics expert. Then, obviously luck still plays a role too. Also, if Morey has a bad personality and alienates players, that really has nothing to do with the validity of the metrics.
If Melo wants to lose out on money and walk, then fine. I'd rather get something for him but I'm not afraid of having a blank slate. I don't think this team is accomplishing anything worthwhile for a while anyway.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

so your plan is butter him up for a sign and trade? Bonn... with all due respect thats a joke. He's walking to the Lakers if thats your plan. Melo has produced pretty well here. He's thinking its not my fault Ray Felton and Bargs where the big roster upgrades and Amare's knees are made of glass. Thanks Bonn... but LAL really wants me. Thanks anyway.

Now your all set to build a team with advanced stats. Meanwhile the biggest advanced stat guy in the league alienated players and let a great advanced stat guy like Parson go for nada to throw himself at Melo's feet. It doesnt add up mate.

I don't know how Morey uses the advanced stats. He's just one person. There's as much diversity in views within the advanced stat community as there is within the eyeball test community. All teams are employing metrics experts now, though, and some probably use the metrics better than Morey does even if the GM isn't the metrics expert. Then, obviously luck still plays a role too. Also, if Morey has a bad personality and alienates players, that really has nothing to do with the validity of the metrics.
If Melo wants to lose out on money and walk, then fine. I'd rather get something for him but I'm not afraid of having a blank slate. I don't think this team is accomplishing anything worthwhile for a while anyway.

well for a long time Morey was the poster boy around here for the metrics heros. You cant deny that. The point is talent trumps metrics. Plain and simple. Ainge said exactly the same thing.

I'm no fan of Morey trust me. But who is in better shape? The team that signed Amare to $100m uninsured and traded every single asset for Melo, another max contract or the guy whole stole James Harden from OKC. OKC has never been the same and Harden despite all the flaws makes only $15m per? Can't forget the Bargnani trade

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:been saying the same thing for years azamatbagatov. It won't sink in until Melo is sitting on the bench in a suit in the same chair occupied by Mcdyess & Allan Houston and many others with 2-3yrs left on his contract. As the countdown on Melo's days as a knick and his expiring contract begins. We are not getting any younger. 41+ years since our last championship

yep you would think seeing the same thing happen over and over would eventually sink in. The Knicks should get ready for the players coming off rookie deals as their core pieces.Those contracts arent crippling like the super max deals. You can get 3 of those guys and still have room for a couple spare parts.

Yea man.. I mean look at what Will Chandler, Gallo and Mosgov (that equalls about $20mm) have accomplished. Maybe we should avoid all talent that might be expensive? How is Derrick Rose?

You keep your talent. You keep your picks. You keep building. ITs not that hard.

Just say you dont want Melo. You dont like the guy, you would rather suck and be warm and cuddly with hope... why make stuff up about a guys health to make you feel better about not wanting him back.

I want him back at 16-18 not 25-30

When you out to eat do you ask for the porterhouse but ask only to pay the price of the sirloin? I mean cmon... take your feelings out of it and realize this price is set by the market.

See this is the point everyone is trying to make fish. You seem to think eveyone hates Melo but thats not the case. Unfortunetly we live in a salary cap world so sacrifices need to be amde even by top players. I mean unless you get extremely lucky and get a player like Lebron or Durant. I mean i personally like Melo but i like the Knicks more and i wnat him to take less in order to have a better team longterm

Agreed. I have no doubt that a few teams would offer Melo $25 mil if they could. Sure that's the high end of what teams would pay him. I wouldn't call the high end of what a few teams would offer Melo "the market." Or you could call that "the market," but then the market is often a bad deal and you're better off looking for discounts.

huh? do you take ecomonics? Market is set by the highest bidder. The market for Allan Houston was NOT $100mm. It most certainly is for Melo. Guys a HOF player in his prime and Knick fans are worried about money?

I just want to hear people's plans. If you want to let Melo walk fine.. so whats your plan to build a winner since you want to let one of the most productive guys in his prime walk. OK... who are you getting? All I hear is this magical elusive mix of players who will never get hurt, are two way players and are wonderful human beings. No names... just rainbows and magical ponies.

But if I mention our prior failures Im forcing some view on somebody?

People say they trust Phil to build it. Ahh... here's a news flash... Phil wants Melo to come back. Now if he trades him I have no problem with that!!!!! None!

My plan? You have to evaluate all the advanced metrics and get guys at prices that are reasonable for what they produce. I don't start out by asking A) how much would other people pay the player and then decide I must sign him to that. I start out by asking B) how much is he worth to this team. If A is higher than B, then I'll just pass on the him. I don't want to let Melo walk though. I never would have let it come to this. Now that it has, I'd do everything I could to butter him up for his contributions to NY and encourage him to do an S & T. It's in both his and our interests to do that rather than let him walk. If he's willing to sign here for a little higher than B, I would still take him since he would be a trade asset.

so your plan is butter him up for a sign and trade? Bonn... with all due respect thats a joke. He's walking to the Lakers if thats your plan. Melo has produced pretty well here. He's thinking its not my fault Ray Felton and Bargs where the big roster upgrades and Amare's knees are made of glass. Thanks Bonn... but LAL really wants me. Thanks anyway.

Now your all set to build a team with advanced stats. Meanwhile the biggest advanced stat guy in the league alienated players and let a great advanced stat guy like Parson go for nada to throw himself at Melo's feet. It doesnt add up mate.

I don't know how Morey uses the advanced stats. He's just one person. There's as much diversity in views within the advanced stat community as there is within the eyeball test community. All teams are employing metrics experts now, though, and some probably use the metrics better than Morey does even if the GM isn't the metrics expert. Then, obviously luck still plays a role too. Also, if Morey has a bad personality and alienates players, that really has nothing to do with the validity of the metrics.
If Melo wants to lose out on money and walk, then fine. I'd rather get something for him but I'm not afraid of having a blank slate. I don't think this team is accomplishing anything worthwhile for a while anyway.

well for a long time Morey was the poster boy around here for the metrics heros. You cant deny that. The point is talent trumps metrics. Plain and simple. Ainge said exactly the same thing.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

That $30mm isnt likely, but even if it was its the last year of the deal, so unles he's out of the league you figure he recoups some of that in his next contract, even if its like a Duncan/Dirk/KG type contract those guys all signed at the same age (34ish). Its certainly a nice insurance and one thats very hard to walk away from if its on the table.

The threat to leave always results in a bigger payday. Thats not only the NBA. My job pays me well because I post on ultimateknicks all day I have a nice talent set that they need and I deliver results. Im replacable, sure... but that requires training, a breakin period and of course the next guy might not be as good etc etc

For a company like MSG the risk is managable.

Question... dont you think if the Bulls, Rockets, LAL, etc could offer him what the Knicks could they would? I dont think its that far fatched... I mean Morey alienates a fan favorite in Lin and lets a metrics star in PArson go for nothing for a shot at Melo (now Bosh) I would think that last year wouldnt deter him

I meant paying him $129m while the rest of the league can only pay him $96m. We will be paying him $33m more than anyone else or above "market" value" if you wish.

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think you can look at this the same way you interpret the market. Melo can make $129m for the Knicks or $96mil playing for any other team. So if anything the market price is $96m. Knicks would be paying $30m+ above market value. Since we are treating this like the stock market we are getting completely hosed in the deal. I think thats what Bonn meant

Question... dont you think if the Bulls, Rockets, LAL, etc could offer him what the Knicks could they would? I dont think its that far fatched... I mean Morey alienates a fan favorite in Lin and lets a metrics star in PArson go for nothing for a shot at Melo (now Bosh) I would think that last year wouldnt deter him