MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

Depends what your definition of great is. Is great MJ, LeNron, Magic, Kobe? If so, Carmelo is not great. But Carmelo is easily in the class of guys like Durant. My CURRENT top 5 is:

LeBron
Kobe
Durant
Melo
Westbrook

not sure westbrook should be in that class, but i guarantee you if lebron or Durant was a knick you guys would be fuming if someone were to suggest that carmelo is in their class... and he just isn't....

No one is in LeBron's class. But Durant? Give me an argument why Durant is in a higher class than Melo. They are almost identical players statistically. KD is a better ball handler while Melo is a better post player. They are both great rebounders at their position. I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged. If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

they are not identical at all.. durant is a better scorer, a more efficient score, a better facilitator, or ball mover, better rebounder.. the guy is just a better all around player...

I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged

and what does that mean? what about the other 99% of the time when he isn't engaged?

If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

All things are not equal... if you go with KD, you go with him because he is flat out better.. and deep down I think you feel the same way....

A better argument would be between carmelo and Deron williams...

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:It would make sense to trash Carmelo if Denver, Houston, and Mike D'antoni were having more success.

But they're not.

Excuses and posts don't matter. Only wins do.

that is ridiculous..you don't criticize a player based on someone else success or failure.. what sense does that make?

You're acting like there weren't several people saying that the Nuggets were better than the Knicks after the trade because they were winning while we were losing

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

Depends what your definition of great is. Is great MJ, LeNron, Magic, Kobe? If so, Carmelo is not great. But Carmelo is easily in the class of guys like Durant. My CURRENT top 5 is:

LeBron
Kobe
Durant
Melo
Westbrook

not sure westbrook should be in that class, but i guarantee you if lebron or Durant was a knick you guys would be fuming if someone were to suggest that carmelo is in their class... and he just isn't....

No one is in LeBron's class. But Durant? Give me an argument why Durant is in a higher class than Melo. They are almost identical players statistically. KD is a better ball handler while Melo is a better post player. They are both great rebounders at their position. I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged. If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

they are not identical at all.. durant is a better scorer, a more efficient score, a better facilitator, or ball mover, better rebounder.. the guy is just a better all around player...

I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged

and what does that mean? what about the other 99% of the time when he isn't engaged?

If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

All things are not equal... if you go with KD, you go with him because he is flat out better.. and deep down I think you feel the same way....

A better argument would be between carmelo and Deron williams...

I really don't think KD is better than Melo. I think perhaps he has more of an unselfish gene at an earlier age. I think they are very similar players. They are both excellent rebounders. KD is not a great facilitator. He makes smart passes but in terms of facilitating they are equals. I think KD gets some easy assists off of passes to Westbrook. With Melo passing out of the post like he does, a made shot usually comes off of the 2nd or 3rd pass after the initial one from Melo. To say Melo is not playing D 99% of the time is to not admit he's turned a corner this year. Deron isn't in the class of either of these players. Utah Deron, yes. But not NJ/BK Deron.

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

Depends what your definition of great is. Is great MJ, LeNron, Magic, Kobe? If so, Carmelo is not great. But Carmelo is easily in the class of guys like Durant. My CURRENT top 5 is:

LeBron
Kobe
Durant
Melo
Westbrook

not sure westbrook should be in that class, but i guarantee you if lebron or Durant was a knick you guys would be fuming if someone were to suggest that carmelo is in their class... and he just isn't....

No one is in LeBron's class. But Durant? Give me an argument why Durant is in a higher class than Melo. They are almost identical players statistically. KD is a better ball handler while Melo is a better post player. They are both great rebounders at their position. I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged. If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

they are not identical at all.. durant is a better scorer, a more efficient score, a better facilitator, or ball mover, better rebounder.. the guy is just a better all around player...

I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged

and what does that mean? what about the other 99% of the time when he isn't engaged?

If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

All things are not equal... if you go with KD, you go with him because he is flat out better.. and deep down I think you feel the same way....

A better argument would be between carmelo and Deron williams...

I really don't think KD is better than Melo. I think perhaps he has more of an unselfish gene at an earlier age. I think they are very similar players. They are both excellent rebounders. KD is not a great facilitator. He makes smart passes but in terms of facilitating they are equals. I think KD gets some easy assists off of passes to Westbrook. With Melo passing out of the post like he does, a made shot usually comes off of the 2nd or 3rd pass after the initial one from Melo. To say Melo is not playing D 99% of the time is to not admit he's turned a corner this year. Deron isn't in the class of either of these players. Utah Deron, yes. But not NJ/BK Deron.

Having someone take 18 shots a game and make only 42% should not be helping your assists. It's probably hurting them. Durant is better than Melo in every major area (scoring efficiency, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks).

Only on this Willy Wonka Bizarro Forum Factory where hard facts/stats are defied, throwing pure logic to the side

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2013&p2=duranke01&y2=2013

Bonn1997 wrote:Are you talking about this year or career-wise?

I haven't looked at their career numbers head to head. Just last year and the start of this year.

But the point is this: Would I take Durant over Melo? Yes, because of age. But to downgrade Melo by saying they're not in the same class is silly.

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:I get it now, if somehow MDA demonstrates further alienation tendancies with another player,
then Melo is obsolved of his sins!

Wow!

what exactly doe Homers stand to gain from this? IS melo up for sainthood? Vetting for a seat on the Supreme court?

You guys are that desporate for a hero?

it is absolutely amazing.... i have never seen a fan base root for the failure of 5 players and a coach to validate and hero worship one guy..... I thought if you like someone, you like them and didn't need others to fail to justify why you like them....

This thread isn't about rooting for players to fail or giving anyone praise.

At the same time you seem quick to create a scapegoat for a teams failures, but get upset when they recieve praise.

no, just annoyed at undue praise and people trying to force feed me greatness that isn't there...

Its an atmosphere that you helped create with over the top bias. You have no problem force feeding blame all onto one person when the team loses, but when they win you want to claim team and spread the praise around. Mean while you create standards for Denver, Lin, MDA by knocking the Knicks in order to propel them but get upset when they are criticised for not reaching those standards and cry foul. The only thing that annoys you is your desire to be right.

your criticism is unfair. carmelo anthony has underachieved most of his career. not playing great defense and not being a playmaker will do that to a player and his teams. add to this that he has been an inefficient scorer-- what dunderheads call euphemistically a "volume shooter"-- and the first place you look is carmelo.

now is he more efficient thus far into the season. the answer is yes, in fact it is borderline good, 57.5TS. but his usage relative to his assist rate is an abomination. 34.7 to 11.3. yuuuuck. and his 3-point shooting percentage will certainly go down, dragging his efficiency down with it to his career level of absolute mediocrity: 53-55%. this hurts his team.

so the reason for the criticism is that carmelo anthony basically plays basketball in a kind of vacuum the vast majority of the time. win or lose, he is going to accumulate points, mostly inefficiently, while not making others better on either end of the floor.

The criticism is fair of Melo's game. But at the same time the guy has won 591% of his games in Denver and made the playoffs every yr of his career and is on pace to having a great season in NY. If he was as bad as you claim he doesn't achieve that. He also has went to the WCF which tells me that these issues you have against him can be worked with. You guys act as if he is a some mediocre career loser.

IMO I think a lot of those issues can be worked out with personel and coaching, Example Woodson is a defensive first coach the first that Melo has played with in his NBA career. Is it a suprise to you that he now is playing the most defense effort he has played with since Woodson took over. The key with his usage, playmaking ability, and shot selection is that he is cappable. It comes down to him trusting his teammates. He has played some of the best basketball of his career with Billups and Kidd, I don't think that is a conicidence. But his ability to produce, his clutch gene(minus this season) and versatility isn't something that grows on trees.

To be fair, Denver's and our winning %s in games he's missed has been around .550 (Denver) and higher for us too. No one's saying he's a loser but I would classify him only as a "good" player not a "great" one. I know calling him "good" is not strong enough praise for many though and I'll probably be called a hater.

Depends what your definition of great is. Is great MJ, LeNron, Magic, Kobe? If so, Carmelo is not great. But Carmelo is easily in the class of guys like Durant. My CURRENT top 5 is:

LeBron
Kobe
Durant
Melo
Westbrook

not sure westbrook should be in that class, but i guarantee you if lebron or Durant was a knick you guys would be fuming if someone were to suggest that carmelo is in their class... and he just isn't....

No one is in LeBron's class. But Durant? Give me an argument why Durant is in a higher class than Melo. They are almost identical players statistically. KD is a better ball handler while Melo is a better post player. They are both great rebounders at their position. I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged. If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

they are not identical at all.. durant is a better scorer, a more efficient score, a better facilitator, or ball mover, better rebounder.. the guy is just a better all around player...

I would argue that Melo is actually a better defender when engaged

and what does that mean? what about the other 99% of the time when he isn't engaged?

If I had to choose one over the other I'd go with KD but only because I'll go with the young guy if all else is equal.

All things are not equal... if you go with KD, you go with him because he is flat out better.. and deep down I think you feel the same way....

A better argument would be between carmelo and Deron williams...

I really don't think KD is better than Melo. I think perhaps he has more of an unselfish gene at an earlier age. I think they are very similar players. They are both excellent rebounders. KD is not a great facilitator. He makes smart passes but in terms of facilitating they are equals. I think KD gets some easy assists off of passes to Westbrook. With Melo passing out of the post like he does, a made shot usually comes off of the 2nd or 3rd pass after the initial one from Melo. To say Melo is not playing D 99% of the time is to not admit he's turned a corner this year. Deron isn't in the class of either of these players. Utah Deron, yes. But not NJ/BK Deron.

ok, this is your opinion and i will just respect that.. that is cool.. but I dissagree 100%..

To say Melo is not playing D 99% of the time is to not admit he's turned a corner this year. Deron isn't in the class of either of these players. Utah Deron, yes. But not NJ/BK Deron.

no he hasn't turned a corner... not to me.. he is still the same lazy defender he was in the past.. maybe he is passing the ball a bit more, but that isn't turning a corner as he is forced to pass and doesn't seem to come normal.. i expect we will see the old melo as he has showed up a couple of times already... more evidence of his lack of defense is that silly, mornic,swinging attempt at a block he does.. it is dangerous and lazy... you know swinging as the player is going into a shooting motion, trying to catch them on the way up.. it is as lazy a defensive play as there can be.. refs are now starting to call fouls on that, as they should...

As far as deron williams, he and carmelo are on the same level.. The deron williams you saw slice us up last week is the exact type of player the knicks needed from day one!!! the exact player we needed!

TeamBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:Durant>Melo and the young man is improving.

Kudo's to melo for being in the conversation after 16 games and the main cog in the knicks early success this year.

TKF, I would not say Melo is in the same bizzaro clown world that Dwight has existed the last few years. Melo graduated and let his clown card expire.

While I agree the Mooby worship is a bit much to take as many have over inflated Melo's status, I don't think he deserves quite the bashing.

His history and playoff record speak for itself. Great win scorers like Andrian Dantley but now plays in a higher exposed era and in a big market.

18-6 did show he can do it in NY. This year he is doing it even better.

Im not keen on extropolating this out to a conf championship but its plausable.

The more you fuel the debate the more you'll insite the response. Your call.

What this has to do with lakers and perspective I still don't get.

Weren't you the one that said people in this thread were bashing D'antoni to validate Melo? That may have been what brought Melo into the conversation in the first place and lead to the Durant/Lebron/Coach Killer discussions

Shhh Teamball, he doesn't know we're on to him...

Nalod wrote:Durant>Melo and the young man is improving.

Kudo's to melo for being in the conversation after 16 games and the main cog in the knicks early success this year.

TKF, I would not say Melo is in the same bizzaro clown world that Dwight has existed the last few years. Melo graduated and let his clown card expire.

While I agree the Mooby worship is a bit much to take as many have over inflated Melo's status, I don't think he deserves quite the bashing.

His history and playoff record speak for itself. Great win scorers like Andrian Dantley but now plays in a higher exposed era and in a big market.

18-6 did show he can do it in NY. This year he is doing it even better.

Im not keen on extropolating this out to a conf championship but its plausable.

The more you fuel the debate the more you'll insite the response. Your call.

What this has to do with lakers and perspective I still don't get.

I just know you'll tie this whole thread back to faith in the rise of the N*yets somehow, though.

For the billionth time, he's POTW for the Eastern Conference, his team's at the top the division, one of the best records in the league. And he's just doing his thing. Nothing special. A few nice passes. Some blocks. Last seen diving his lazy defensive ass all over the the floor.

Even the anti-NY-homer e-media and rags are mumbling about MVP. But we're all smarter than the rags and e-media right?

People had no problems canonizing TheBeard just a few short thread pages ago. My oh my.

Hate will continue until multiple chips appear.

And then they who hate will finally drift off permanently to the Nugget or Rocket boards...

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Durant>Melo and the young man is improving.

Kudo's to melo for being in the conversation after 16 games and the main cog in the knicks early success this year.

TKF, I would not say Melo is in the same bizzaro clown world that Dwight has existed the last few years. Melo graduated and let his clown card expire.

While I agree the Mooby worship is a bit much to take as many have over inflated Melo's status, I don't think he deserves quite the bashing.

His history and playoff record speak for itself. Great win scorers like Andrian Dantley but now plays in a higher exposed era and in a big market.

18-6 did show he can do it in NY. This year he is doing it even better.

Im not keen on extropolating this out to a conf championship but its plausable.

The more you fuel the debate the more you'll insite the response. Your call.

What this has to do with lakers and perspective I still don't get.

I just know you'll tie this whole thread back to faith in the rise of the N*yets somehow, though.

For the billionth time, he's POTW for the Eastern Conference, his team's at the top the division, one of the best records in the league. And he's just doing his thing. Nothing special. A few nice passes. Some blocks. Last seen diving his lazy defensive ass all over the the floor.

Even the anti-NY-homer e-media and rags are mumbling about MVP. But we're all smarter than the rags and e-media right?

People had no problems canonizing TheBeard just a few short thread pages ago. My oh my.

Hate will continue until multiple chips appear.

And then they who hate will finally drift off permanently to the Nugget or Rocket boards...

or when multiple players disappear... guess which one I think will come first?

Amare?