gunsnewing wrote:If Felton can continue to limit TOs it will somewhat offset the 5 or so bad shots

At least somebody has a decent point to share. Thx guns.

The point I'm trying to make is that nothing prevents Ray from doing all the good things he's doing, good defense, good ball control/low turnovers, good 3-point shooting, good connection with his big men, etc, and just have a little more self control to back off the floaters when they're not going down. It will only make him better, and keep other teams from making runs while Ray is being stubborn.

yellowboy90 wrote:ALso, let's not cherry pick show the list for all pgs.

you use "cherry picking" as a critique because you don't want to believe what i am saying. if you don't trust my insights or research you can look at basketball-reference.com for each point guard and divide their usage rate by their assist rate and come up with the numbers.

NUPE wrote:Felton has played well. I don't have a problem with him taking shots so long as they are good shots. The mass majority of Felton's shots have been good shots. Case closed.

The reality is some are just being hyper-critical of Felton because their hearts are still broken over Jeremy Lin and they spent all off-season trying to convince the world Felton sucks. These people will continue down this path, in hopes of being right eventually, despite the fact that Felton has and continues to play well.

NUPE - can you think of one occasion last season where Jeremy Lin was chastised for taking a bad shot? Never. We were having too much fun enjoying the novelty of it all, in the context of a drab season. Lin's basketball IQ is so far off the charts that he gets a pass. If Lin took the shot it must have been a good shot.

Raymond Felton, on the other hand, can be mentioned as a potential All Star by a broadcaster who played the position better than just about anyone who ever wore a uniform not named Magic Johnson, and it does not mean a thing... because Felton attempts too many "bad shots." Felton's aggression is a flaw. If he takes one too many shots that do not fall he is greedy and self centered. Lin, on the other hand, is a leader of men.

There will be missed shots. Carmelo will miss a shot taken against a double team. Novak will go through n early season slump. Amar'e will spin his way into traffic and brick a layup. Jason Kidd will miss seven consecutive three point shots and JR Smith will miss a step back jumper with enough time remaining on the shot clock to run a set play. Know what they have in common? They will all keep shooting.

If Raymond Felton taking 20 shots is not your cup of tea, you may as well get used to it. Why? Three reasons. First, because the space he creates opens the floor for the Knicks bread and butter play.

Second, his coach has given him the green light.

Third, we are winning.

IrishKnickFan wrote:Felton is playing well but why is it that important to give him credit. we expect him to do well and the team to do well

Felton, who returned this season to replace the popular point guard Jeremy Lin, had had consecutive lackluster games, shooting a combined 7 for 27 against the Denver Nuggets and the Nets. His pregame routine seemed to be equal parts penance and exorcism.

“It’s work. But you put in the time, whether you’re hitting or not. My shots weren’t falling, but they’re shots I need to take. So you go out there and try to find the stroke.”

IKF - Giving credit to a player is not a negative. It is a positive. When the backstory is that of a player returning to a place he never wanted to leave, in the wake of a comet, the story takes on nuance and detail of subtle prejudice and perception. Your citing that Felton is "expected" to play well, measured against the "out of nowhere serendipity and international appeal" of Jeremy Lin... is worthy of thoughtful discussion.

Felton’s game is not flashy. There are things he does very well — he is a coach on the floor, efficiently runs his team’s sets and can get to the rim with either hand. Even when he is struggling with his touch, he still manages to create looks for his teammates and keeps turnovers to a minimum. He also has an effective midrange game, and he plays with confidence.

It is a curious context for critique.

“It’s always a lot more fun when you’re winning. You’re moving the ball around, everybody’s scoring, and everybody’s succeeding. Everyone’s out there just having fun.” - Raymond Felton

Both players are close in skill set and team contribution. However, it is undeniable that context (and culture) colors perception. Felton is not nearly as sexy or marketable as Lin. In the big city, style points count double. Lin is the sentimental choice all day long, right?

Very few professional athletes are given second acts in New York. It is rare to do what Felton has: to leave and return to New York in one’s prime.
- Tony Gervino, NYT

Second chances.

why is it that important to give him credit?

It is a good story.

misterearl wrote:Great Expectations

IrishKnickFan wrote:Felton is playing well but why is it that important to give him credit. we expect him to do well and the team to do well

Felton, who returned this season to replace the popular point guard Jeremy Lin, had had consecutive lackluster games, shooting a combined 7 for 27 against the Denver Nuggets and the Nets. His pregame routine seemed to be equal parts penance and exorcism.

“It’s work. But you put in the time, whether you’re hitting or not. My shots weren’t falling, but they’re shots I need to take. So you go out there and try to find the stroke.”

IKF - Giving credit to a player is not a negative. It is a positive. When the backstory is that of a player returning to a place he never wanted to leave, in the wake of a comet, the story takes on nuance and detail of subtle prejudice and perception. Your citing that Felton is "expected" to play well, measured against the "out of nowhere serendipity and international appeal" of Jeremy Lin... is worthy of thoughtful discussion.

Felton’s game is not flashy. There are things he does very well — he is a coach on the floor, efficiently runs his team’s sets and can get to the rim with either hand. Even when he is struggling with his touch, he still manages to create looks for his teammates and keeps turnovers to a minimum. He also has an effective midrange game, and he plays with confidence.

It is a curious context for critique.

“It’s always a lot more fun when you’re winning. You’re moving the ball around, everybody’s scoring, and everybody’s succeeding. Everyone’s out there just having fun.” - Raymond Felton

Both players are close in skill set and team contribution. However, it is undeniable that context (and culture) colors perception. Felton is not nearly as sexy or marketable as Lin. In the big city, style points count double. Lin is the sentimental choice all day long, right?

Very few professional athletes are given second acts in New York. It is rare to do what Felton has: to leave and return to New York in one’s prime.
- Tony Gervino, NYT

Second chances.

why is it that important to give him credit?

It is a good story.

Panos wrote:

misterearl wrote:If numbers are not the point, why is there a scoreboard?

Panos wrote:Numbers are not the point.
You keep telling people to watch the games. Are you watching? I hope you'd see what I mean if you did.

"They should give (Lin) a standing ovation when he comes back here, without a doubt." - Raymond Felton

Panos - would 25 and 10 make you happy?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. earl, but about 10 players on each side contribute to the numbers on the scoreboard.
So if you're just spouting 25 and 10 at me, which by the way are fictional numbers he didn't get but I'm supposed to respond to, they mean zero. In spite of whatever cutesy little quotes you wanna surround your supposed talking points with.

Just sayin'.

Or as you like to say, "Hit the open man." which in this case is my point exactly.

Did you miss this one, earl, or just figured you'd ignore it?

misterearl wrote:

NUPE wrote:Felton has played well. I don't have a problem with him taking shots so long as they are good shots. The mass majority of Felton's shots have been good shots. Case closed.

The reality is some are just being hyper-critical of Felton because their hearts are still broken over Jeremy Lin and they spent all off-season trying to convince the world Felton sucks. These people will continue down this path, in hopes of being right eventually, despite the fact that Felton has and continues to play well.

NUPE - can you think of one occasion last season where Jeremy Lin was chastised for taking a bad shot? Never. We were having too much fun enjoying the novelty of it all, in the context of a drab season. Lin's basketball IQ is so far off the charts that he gets a pass. If Lin took the shot it must have been a good shot.

Raymond Felton, on the other hand, can be mentioned as a potential All Star by a broadcaster who played the position better than just about anyone who ever wore a uniform not named Magic Johnson, and it does not mean a thing... because Felton attempts too many "bad shots." Felton's aggression is a flaw. If he takes one too many shots that do not fall he is greedy and self centered. Lin, on the other hand, is a leader of men.

There will be missed shots. Carmelo will miss a shot taken against a double team. Novak will go through n early season slump. Amar'e will spin his way into traffic and brick a layup. Jason Kidd will miss seven consecutive three point shots and JR Smith will miss a step back jumper with enough time remaining on the shot clock to run a set play. Know what they have in common? They will all keep shooting.

If Raymond Felton taking 20 shots is not your cup of tea, you may as well get used to it. Why? Three reasons. First, because the space he creates opens the floor for the Knicks bread and butter play.

Second, his coach has given him the green light.

Third, we are winning.

This is spot on and why I mentioned Lin. These people think I don't see their agenda. They have been hating on Felton ever since the "Gift" that keeps on bricking was allowed to "get away".

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:ALso, let's not cherry pick show the list for all pgs.

you use "cherry picking" as a critique because you don't want to believe what i am saying. if you don't trust my insights or research you can look at basketball-reference.com for each point guard and divide their usage rate by their assist rate and come up with the numbers.

NO I use cherry pick because I do not know if you are telling the whole story. It has nothing about not wanting to believe its about is this he giving me an accurate viewpoint for me to gain understanding.

i have no agenda here. i want the knicks to win and the knicks to excel. the whole story is that felton falls into the same statistical range as other nba guards who failed to win during their careers.

i'll give you an example of what i mean:

isiah thomas. i never liked his game and think he is overrated... here are his numbers

0.67:1 usg/ast
51.6TS%
10 assists per game, and i am throwing out his worst season in this category which was his last so that he reaches the magic number 10

the first two categories place him in the failure range while the last redeems him to a certain extent.

his backcourt companion was joe dumars, a player who i feel was the secret to the pistons success, and vastly underrated:

1.02 usg/ast
55.4TS%
4.5 apg

HOWEVER FOR THEIR CHAMPIONSHIP SEASONS HERE ARE THE NUMBERS:

1989

thomas 0.72:1
52.8TS%
8.3 apg

dumars 0.89:1
57.1TS%
5.7 apg finals mvp

notice how dumars exceeds his career averages as the pistons handle an old and tired showtime laker squad after the hacking to death of jordan

1990

thomas 0.66:1
51TS%
9.4 apg

dumars 1.01:1
55.5TS%
4.9 apg

the numbers are not as good here but lets remember they crushed an overmatched trailblazer squad after hacking to death of jordan

the moral of the story is that felton is clearly inadequate and the knicks absolutely rely on jason kidd to take up beaucoup slack.