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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  12:32 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:

And don't get me started on Popovich, Duncan and the Admiral.

I don't understand what your point is? Is Popovich a better coach than Larry Brown? Yes. Duncan is the best power forward of all-time. I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in china though....
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BasketballJones
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6/21/2006  12:32 AM
Sometimes I'm hard to understand.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  12:35 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Sometimes I'm hard to understand.

you just have to post the right way. excuse me, I have an interview in Cleveland. good luck with the finals, or whatever.
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BasketballJones
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6/21/2006  12:36 AM
I'll try better next time.
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martin
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6/21/2006  12:36 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Sometimes I'm hard to understand.

you just have to post the right way. excuse me, I have an interview in Cleveland. good luck with the finals, or whatever.

dude, he had to ask permission from the owner and Davidson GAVE HIM PERMISSION.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  12:44 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Sometimes I'm hard to understand.

you just have to post the right way. excuse me, I have an interview in Cleveland. good luck with the finals, or whatever.

dude, he had to ask permission from the owner and Davidson GAVE HIM PERMISSION.

...and then fired him saying he was "not a good person." then Brown acted like he was surprised he was fired and that he truly wanted to come back. I don't know why people come to Brown's defense so vociferously... it's not like I'm making this stuff up.

Much was made about Brown's hospitilizations this season - is it any shock that they came A) in Memphis when Dolan joined the team and had a private meeting with Isiah that Brown was excluded from and B) in Cleveland the day after Marbury said he was going to play his game the next season? We heard "acid reflux" and everyone said "oh poor Brown!" then later, Brown was asked why he missed the games and he said he had the flu. Stern refused to talk to him at the Olympics. Davidson fired him. half the Pistons roster rejoiced when he left. the Pacers quit on him. he has a spotty record.
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codeunknown
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6/21/2006  1:01 AM

What you, my friends, just saw was utter bull**** - those calls were garbage, period. That said, I still maintain Dallas has the superior team - they just didn't stick to the game plan.

Dallas's rebounding/spacing against the 2-3 zone was disasterous. Dallas should've gone small for extended periods of the game with KVH 1) to maximally space the floor with 5 shooters at the arc, 2) to get alonzo/Shaq out of the lane and 3) to open the paint for back-door plays. Defensively, Damp and Diop did a poor job stepping up on Wade's penetration.

On an aside, I wonder how this will motivate Kobe. You've gotta think that he has only 1 thing on his mind now - and thats to destroy Wade.
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djsunyc
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6/21/2006  1:03 AM
code - in a 7 game series, the best team wins. avery was outcoached and wade became great. miami BEAT dallas.
martin
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6/21/2006  1:04 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by martin:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BasketballJones:

Sometimes I'm hard to understand.

you just have to post the right way. excuse me, I have an interview in Cleveland. good luck with the finals, or whatever.

dude, he had to ask permission from the owner and Davidson GAVE HIM PERMISSION.

...and then fired him saying he was "not a good person." then Brown acted like he was surprised he was fired and that he truly wanted to come back. I don't know why people come to Brown's defense so vociferously... it's not like I'm making this stuff up.

Much was made about Brown's hospitilizations this season - is it any shock that they came A) in Memphis when Dolan joined the team and had a private meeting with Isiah that Brown was excluded from and B) in Cleveland the day after Marbury said he was going to play his game the next season? We heard "acid reflux" and everyone said "oh poor Brown!" then later, Brown was asked why he missed the games and he said he had the flu. Stern refused to talk to him at the Olympics. Davidson fired him. half the Pistons roster rejoiced when he left. the Pacers quit on him. he has a spotty record.

if the owner didn't want to give permission to Brown all he had to do was say "wait until after the season". That's all. He knew the risks and OK'ed it.
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crzymdups
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6/21/2006  1:07 AM
I'm sorry, I am being delusional like that prima donna Trevor Ariza.
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codeunknown
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6/21/2006  1:18 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

code - in a 7 game series, the best team wins. avery was outcoached and wade became great. miami BEAT dallas.

I disagree that the best team necessarily wins in a 7 game series - thats a false notion propagated by the league to validate the results. There are always aberrations and, in my opinion, this series falls in that category. And you actually provided the main reason - Avery was outcoached. Now, obviously coaching is part of what is being tested in a series and, in that regard, Miami did win unquestionably. What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.
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Bobby
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6/21/2006  1:20 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

well the way pat is talking right now, it does sound like he dumped svg and took the reigns himself so he can win it in miami...

and you know that means? ultimate responsibility was with riles. this championship run had absolutely nothing to do with svg.

remember these were riles picks not svg.

"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
crzymdups
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6/21/2006  1:24 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

code - in a 7 game series, the best team wins. avery was outcoached and wade became great. miami BEAT dallas.

I agree.


code, you're right - Dallas should have gone small more. but the league officials weren't preventing them from doing that, were they?
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BlueSeats
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6/21/2006  1:35 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.

I don't know about that. Dallas was losing ground. Their first two wins came (at home) while Wade had the flu and a banged up knee, and Miami was cold from the perimeter which made Dallas' inventive double teaming of Shaq all the more effective. But when Miami got back to their game, which isn't overly reliant on Shaq, they got rolling.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 01:39 AM]
codeunknown
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6/21/2006  1:40 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

code - in a 7 game series, the best team wins. avery was outcoached and wade became great. miami BEAT dallas.

I agree.


code, you're right - Dallas should have gone small more. but the league officials weren't preventing them from doing that, were they?


Its definitely interesting to read your perspectives. The officials made some bad calls throughout this series, the free throws that decided games 5 and 6 were themselves questionable. Needless to say, a similar case can be made for some of the plays in game 3. From my perspective - 3 of 4 Miami wins were essentially decided on a flip of a coin - thus, to me, its reasonable to question if the end result would remain the same with a greater sample of games.

A priori, Dallas is a better team if both teams play their best imo. And busting Miami's zone would not have been problematic if Dallas put a runner/shooter at 5. Despite a rebounding hit, that results in a significant surge in shooting percentage/free throws, fewer turnovers and, of course, weakens Miami's fastbreak. Why? Because when you clear the lane, you can segment the two sides of the floor and create distance from shot blockers like Zo. Obviouly, dealing with Shaq becomes tougher but the Dallas players were themselves committed to zoning it up on defense by half-time.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
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6/21/2006  1:57 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by codeunknown:
What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.

I don't know about that. Dallas was losing ground. Their first two wins came (at home) while Wade had the flu and a banged up knee, and Miami was cold from the perimeter which made Dallas' inventive double teaming of Shaq all the more effective. But when Miami got back to their game, which isn't overly reliant on Shaq, they got rolling.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 01:39 AM]

I disagree with the sentiment that Dallas was losing ground. If Dallas pulls out game 6, then momentum swings back and all bets are off suddenly. It comes down to mathcups. I think Harris on Wade with occasional zones works well over the course of a series - Wade scored the vast majority of his points on screen/rolls and switches. That is to say not that Wade would be "stopped" but Wade's percentages would have come down measurably and perhaps his shot count would lower. More 3pters by the supporting cast means more transition opportunities for Dallas. Looking at the tape, you can see that Wade got a mis-match on every screen/roll, the big man never showed and Harris, consequently, couldn't recover. That, of course, is atrocious but again, in my opinion, fixable over 11 games.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
oohah
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6/21/2006  2:19 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by codeunknown:
What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.

I don't know about that. Dallas was losing ground. Their first two wins came (at home) while Wade had the flu and a banged up knee, and Miami was cold from the perimeter which made Dallas' inventive double teaming of Shaq all the more effective. But when Miami got back to their game, which isn't overly reliant on Shaq, they got rolling.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 01:39 AM]

I disagree with the sentiment that Dallas was losing ground. If Dallas pulls out game 6, then momentum swings back and all bets are off suddenly. It comes down to mathcups. I think Harris on Wade with occasional zones works well over the course of a series - Wade scored the vast majority of his points on screen/rolls and switches. That is to say not that Wade would be "stopped" but Wade's percentages would have come down measurably and perhaps his shot count would lower. More 3pters by the supporting cast means more transition opportunities for Dallas. Looking at the tape, you can see that Wade got a mis-match on every screen/roll, the big man never showed and Harris, consequently, couldn't recover. That, of course, is atrocious but again, in my opinion, fixable over 11 games.


Code, it seems to me the question of who would win in an 11 game series is just academic. The Heat won in the format that we have now, and that is what the championship is. Look at the NCAA tournament, it doesn't matter who is the better long-term team, its all about tonight. Truthfully 11 games seems like an excessive number to decide.

Down the stretch the Mavs just could not stop Wade. Is it because of coaching too? Partly, but I think that still falls under the umbrella of "the team", because the coach is part of the team.

I think the Mavs got totally hosed on the foul calls but for all of that, if they had just sunk their free throws the referees could not have taken the games from them. They controlled their own destiny. If they had just hit their free throws they would be looking to close out tonight rather than feeeling awful.

The Heat were just the better team. I have to give it to them as much as it pains me.

oohah

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codeunknown
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6/21/2006  2:37 AM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by codeunknown:
What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.

I don't know about that. Dallas was losing ground. Their first two wins came (at home) while Wade had the flu and a banged up knee, and Miami was cold from the perimeter which made Dallas' inventive double teaming of Shaq all the more effective. But when Miami got back to their game, which isn't overly reliant on Shaq, they got rolling.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 01:39 AM]

I disagree with the sentiment that Dallas was losing ground. If Dallas pulls out game 6, then momentum swings back and all bets are off suddenly. It comes down to mathcups. I think Harris on Wade with occasional zones works well over the course of a series - Wade scored the vast majority of his points on screen/rolls and switches. That is to say not that Wade would be "stopped" but Wade's percentages would have come down measurably and perhaps his shot count would lower. More 3pters by the supporting cast means more transition opportunities for Dallas. Looking at the tape, you can see that Wade got a mis-match on every screen/roll, the big man never showed and Harris, consequently, couldn't recover. That, of course, is atrocious but again, in my opinion, fixable over 11 games.


Code, it seems to me the question of who would win in an 11 game series is just academic. The Heat won in the format that we have now, and that is what the championship is. Look at the NCAA tournament, it doesn't matter who is the better long-term team, its all about tonight. Truthfully 11 games seems like an excessive number to decide.

Down the stretch the Mavs just could not stop Wade. Is it because of coaching too? Partly, but I think that still falls under the umbrella of "the team", because the coach is part of the team.

I think the Mavs got totally hosed on the foul calls but for all of that, if they had just sunk their free throws the referees could not have taken the games from them. They controlled their own destiny. If they had just hit their free throws they would be looking to close out tonight rather than feeeling awful.

The Heat were just the better team. I have to give it to them as much as it pains me.

oohah


Oohah, of course its academic - I'm not suggesting that we rescind the order on Miami's rings. Nor am I suggesting that we extend playoff series because the format is determined mainly by economic optimization and agreement by the involved parties, including the league, the owners to player's union. The rules are the rules and championships are determined by those rules (and calls, whether or not they match the rules). As far as coaching, it is obviously part of what is being tested in basketball, as I mentioned previously. That is not the issue.

The problem, however, is that the format failed in this series in my opinion. Now, this is an on-going argument that perhaps every losing team might invoke. Thus, it remains forum banter in which we will indulge until the upcoming draft.

Perhaps its my dislike for the Heat but I strongly believe that Wade overachieved and would have plateaued if guarded appropriately.



[Edited by - codeunknown on 06-21-2006 02:40 AM]
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
oohah
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6/21/2006  2:41 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by codeunknown:
What I'm pointing at, however, is that Dallas lost due to failed strategy, one that I think would have been rectified in (for instance) an 11 game series.

I don't know about that. Dallas was losing ground. Their first two wins came (at home) while Wade had the flu and a banged up knee, and Miami was cold from the perimeter which made Dallas' inventive double teaming of Shaq all the more effective. But when Miami got back to their game, which isn't overly reliant on Shaq, they got rolling.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 01:39 AM]

I disagree with the sentiment that Dallas was losing ground. If Dallas pulls out game 6, then momentum swings back and all bets are off suddenly. It comes down to mathcups. I think Harris on Wade with occasional zones works well over the course of a series - Wade scored the vast majority of his points on screen/rolls and switches. That is to say not that Wade would be "stopped" but Wade's percentages would have come down measurably and perhaps his shot count would lower. More 3pters by the supporting cast means more transition opportunities for Dallas. Looking at the tape, you can see that Wade got a mis-match on every screen/roll, the big man never showed and Harris, consequently, couldn't recover. That, of course, is atrocious but again, in my opinion, fixable over 11 games.


Code, it seems to me the question of who would win in an 11 game series is just academic. The Heat won in the format that we have now, and that is what the championship is. Look at the NCAA tournament, it doesn't matter who is the better long-term team, its all about tonight. Truthfully 11 games seems like an excessive number to decide.

Down the stretch the Mavs just could not stop Wade. Is it because of coaching too? Partly, but I think that still falls under the umbrella of "the team", because the coach is part of the team.

I think the Mavs got totally hosed on the foul calls but for all of that, if they had just sunk their free throws the referees could not have taken the games from them. They controlled their own destiny. If they had just hit their free throws they would be looking to close out tonight rather than feeeling awful.

The Heat were just the better team. I have to give it to them as much as it pains me.

oohah


Oohah, of course its academic - I'm not suggesting that we rescind the order on Miami's rings. Nor am I suggesting that we extend playoff series because the format is determined mainly by economic optimization and agreement by the involved parties, including the league, the owners to player's union. The rules are the rules and championships are determined by those rules (and calls, whether or not they match the rules). As far as coaching, it is obviously part of what is being tested in basketball, as I mentioned previously. That is not the issue.

The problem, however, is that the format failed in this series in my opinion. Now, this is an on-going argument that perhaps every losing team might invoke. Thus, it remains forum banter in which we will indulge until the upcoming draft.

Perhaps its my dislike for the Heat but I strongly believe that Wade overachieved and would have plateaued if guarded appropriately.



[Edited by - codeunknown on 06-21-2006 02:40 AM]



Miaimi wins 6-4.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
codeunknown
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6/21/2006  2:42 AM
Dallas wins 6-5
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