It is so interesting that everyone predicts Isah to have at least 17 more wins than LB with the same 'flawed' 'talentless' roster. Very telling.

Marbury hasn't been on the best teams here but he has been given every opportunity to excel here. Lenny was a coach who's hire was taylored for Steph. The KT-Marbury-Thomas Knicks was Taylored to Steph's pick and roll abilities and he led us to a .500 record with infighting in the locker room. To Zeke he had to try a new approach.

Then Zeke brings in all these dynamic offensive players and he brought in LB to teach them defense. He did what the exact opposite of what the Pistons did this season. They brought in a free-flowing offensive coach to loosen the reigns on a predominantly defensive team. Zeke brought in a defensive coach to give these offensive players more depth.

Marbury was given every chance to show he could lead a team, but maybe not in the ideal circumstances to win, but in NY there are no ideal circumstances to win.


Marbury played better with Doleac & KVH. I liked the Muhammad/TT trade, but only for the reasons of the team adding better trade value rather than me thinking Muhammad/TT were the players Marbury needed to excell. TT never ran the pick and roll with Marbury but he definatly had the components to be a good pick and roll guy. KT was a good pick and pop guy with Marbury. But a taylor made pick and roll partner for Marbury would not only be someone who could hit jumpers, but also put the ball on the floor and become a trible threat to drive, shoot or pass. Have the athletism to cut and finish. And have the ability to make that extra pass. Once KT got the ball you know he was shooting it and nothing else. Those are qualities Tim Thomas all had too. Ive never seen a PG & SF consistantly work the pick and roll though.

I think he did lead the team "on the court" last season. He made his share of mistakes in crunchtime though. But we were competitive in basicly every single game. He gave us a chance to win almost every game. And all the players put up there career averages as a starter. In the locker room yea I can't lie he wasn't angel, based on reports. But I was never in the locker room. I never got to hear or see first hand what exactly was going on in there. #1 Richardson & Curry aren't dynamic offenisve weapons & Frye though skilled was a rookie. Rose & Francis are both after the fact and didn't fit reguardless. Billups, Rip & Sheed were already known as skilled offensive players who played with effort on defense already. They had to adjust more with Larry Brown and put defense first then with Flip Saunders. And its all a whole lot easier to play defense when you have Ben Wallace as your center. I want proof that his speculated poor locker room behavior was the reason Lenny got fired. Not speculation because others are saying it. I have given a good enough reason to believe that injuries caused the Knicks to have the worst month in knicks history which caused Lanny's departure. So all you have to do is give me proof or something that makes so much sense that it sways my opinion.

Now if management felt that Brown also needed to be held accountable and that HE needed to be put on notice I understand that, but that should have been done privately.

Maybe Larry Brown should take your advise as well. Why does Marbury get trashed from you for his negative actions. But Larry Brown get a pass from you for his. You just finished talking about its how he conducts himself and how his teams respond to him. Well this last season Larry Brown conducted himself poorly and his team responded poorly. The proof was the 8 players opening up about it to Isiah Thomas in the players exit meeting. Imagine if only one player complained about Marbury and it reached the pubplic. But none of it is Brown's fault, its his players that failed him right, its his players that quit on him, its his players that don't take responsibility. Where is that when it comes to Marbury?? Name one proven winning player that Marbury was added to and he brought down??? And don't tell me well he brought a proven winner like Brown down when its been Browns history to start poorly. And you talk about chemistry and happy locker room but yet Brown is allowed to bad mouth his players in the public and expect a happy locker room?? So why is Marbury the only one that must take responsibility and none of the players on his teams when we argue about him. But Brown doesn't have to?? Because he is known as a winner. But then again its not about stats and win loses. Larry Brown was fired out of detroit and was called a "bad man" by Davidson I think his name is. What about him being moved from teams???. For the record again I want Larry Brown to stay.

You always trump out the injuries and the like to explain away the loses, but it never explains away the divided locker rooms, the ridiculous public pronouncements, the lack of team chemistry, and the eventual disenchantment with him by coaches and GMs. His win/loss record may certainly take a hit from injuries and the like, but they have little to do with why he gets moved as frequently as he does.

Like I wrote above. I am not in the locker rooms, I don't hear or see what happends in there first hand. So there for I can't truly judge the level of negative impact one is truley causing in the locker room. Especially if I have to rely on a reporters mouth who's job is to sell drama to sell papers. But I do see injuries and I could personaly see the negative effect they have had. So how can I put an unknown ahead of a known. The only way I truley can say that he is a problem child is if the coach or players themselves flat out say that he has been ruining the locker room. And in Marburys case the only time that has happend in his career was with New Jersey. Which is where I judge Marbury and blame him since I have found as a fact that he was a ******* there. Though the Nets were a bad organization at that time. Don't try and sell me the Pheniox arguement. Which is very very weak. I did my own research. The worst thing D'Antoni, Marion, & Stoudemire came out and said out of there own mouths was Nash likes to pass more than Marbury making Marion & Stoudemire happy. We also never read the questions specificly from the media in the papers we read. We only read the quotes from the players. Making it very easy to spin it any way we or they want. Colangelo went to the length to say that "we still saw Marbury as the cornerstone of our future. That is until Isiah Thomas made us an offer we couldn't refuse". No Gm would go out of his way to say that if he felt that Marbury was ruining the team and had to go. But because Hardaway said what he said, and he is you only string to pheniox that is convienent with your case everything else doesn't matter to you. Its funny because when I did my research on Marbury leaving pheniox all they talked about was the finacial part and I looked at a lot of articles. But you didn't use not one of them because you refuse to be objective. You only took what was convient no matter how little it was and strung them together with your own commentary. And you have it stuck in your head that without a shadow of a doubt you theory is 100% accurate. Anything else that is not out of there mouths since THERE the ones Marbury suposedly had beef with is *speculation* and all based on his past with NJ. When Marion & Stoud made there comments in those papers it was based on pheniox having success and comparing Marbury to Nash. And since Kidd went on to have success with the Nets where Marbury truly was an ******* it was just to easy to make it seem Marbury did it again. I wonder how the writers spun it when the suns were on that 8 game losing streak a little while after they traded Marbury?? And won 16 of 44 remaining games after the trade. What ever happend to addition by subraction?? Marbury was not addition by subration, he was addition by bringing in a better addition. If I would have found any comments with Marion or Stoudemire saying out of there mouths that Marbury needed to go because he was causing problems in the locker room. I would have stopped right there and agreed with your point from then on. But I didn't. The funny thing is no matter what Marbury will be blamed even though it takes 2 players to fight or 2 players to argue. Just like since Artest has his past he gets suspended for a cheap foul. Yea im sure Marbury is the ONLY player who has been on his team that doesnt take responsibilty and points fingers. So you could say why is Marbury allways the constant in the fight. Well because he is the one who controlls the ball so he is gonna be targeted as well as him being the one who is the aggressor(spell) at the same time. Marbury was "moved" out of Minny because he wanted to play close to home. Not because they wanted to get rid of him like you continually spin. With the Nets he forced his way out of a situtaion he didn't want to be in. He acted like an ******* there I have agreed. But he didn't want to be there period and made it known. He was "moved by the suns to save about a 100+ million dollars of owed salary. He also showed chemistry with KG, Alan Houston, Doleac, KVH the 2nd time they played together, Shawn Marion who became an allstar that season & Amare became rookie of the yr, Jamal Crawford, even Kurt Thomas though they fought. The only proof that a team wanted him gone because of attitude problems was Nets and that because Marbury forced his way out. Everything else is theorys and speculation so stop claiming it as facts.

Marbury played better with Doleac & KVH. I liked the Muhammad/TT trade, but only for the reasons of the team adding better trade value rather than me thinking Muhammad/TT were the players Marbury needed to excell. TT never ran the pick and roll with Marbury but he definatly had the components to be a good pick and roll guy. KT was a good pick and pop guy with Marbury. But a taylor made pick and roll partner for Marbury would not only be someone who could hit jumpers, but also put the ball on the floor and become a trible threat to drive, shoot or pass. Have the athletism to cut and finish. And have the ability to make that extra pass. Once KT got the ball you know he was shooting it and nothing else. Those are qualities Tim Thomas all had too. Ive never seen a PG & SF consistantly work the pick and roll though.

Marbury came into a team that didn't have the talent that his team in PHX had. No one is arguing that. Actually, that Knicks roster was probably better suited for LB. But Marbury did average his 20 and 8 and we got nowhere. That seems to be the pattern. Except for one season in PHX Marbury's 20 and 8 doesn't lead anyone anywhere.

I think he did lead the team "on the court" last season. He made his share of mistakes in crunchtime though. But we were competitive in basicly every single game. He gave us a chance to win almost every game. And all the players put up there career averages as a starter. In the locker room yea I can't lie he wasn't angel, based on reports. But I was never in the locker room.

Other than the first line I generally agree with this. But the question is why were we competitive? Marbury was a big part of that but was he the reason? Marbury was part of a bigger thing there where a slowed down scheme and a strong defense(I remember we were like #1 or #2 in opponent FG%) led to lower scores.

I never got to hear or see first hand what exactly was going on in there. #1 Richardson & Curry aren't dynamic offenisve weapons & Frye though skilled was a rookie. Rose & Francis are both after the fact and didn't fit reguardless. Billups, Rip & Sheed were already known as skilled offensive players who played with effort on defense already.

Bro Richardson and Curry aren't Marion or Iverson, but they are offensive players who when they get going are amazing scorers. I believe Rose was a definate Zeke move. He chased him for years, now all of a sudden he gets him for LB....no way, I thought that from the begining. Rip and Billiups were both known as offensive players before anyone considered them defensive players. They got that way under Carlisle and perfected it under Brown. Sheed was always a mega talent that underachieved. He literally could have been anything he wanted, and he choose to be a 2nd rate star.

They had to adjust more with Larry Brown and put defense first then with Flip Saunders. And its all a whole lot easier to play defense when you have Ben Wallace as your center. I want proof that his speculated poor locker room behavior was the reason Lenny got fired. Not speculation because others are saying it. I have given a good enough reason to believe that injuries caused the Knicks to have the worst month in knicks history which caused Lanny's departure. So all you have to do is give me proof or something that makes so much sense that it sways my opinion.

That is the whole point! Rip and Billiups shelved their pride, redefined their games and are now considered the best back court in the league, have been to the finals, and won the championship. If Marbury was able to do what Billiups or Rip did he would be a top 2 PG in the league. He has more talent than Rip, Kidd, Nash, Billiups...I will say that to anyone who will listen. He doesn't have the mental makeup to do that.

bottomline is, in a time when the Knicks DESPERATELY needed leadership, both the head coach & the team's best player failed miserably to provide it... they both need to be held accountable... too bad the one that is willing to face up to it is the one being ousted in favor of the other, who's only deflected blame ever since he got here.

but i agree w/BlueSeats once again... i think it's time for Isiah to just put up or shut up once & for all & take over this team he's put together... LB's authority has been completely undermined, so there's no hope for him to succeed anymore w/this current roster, & it's clear that Dolan isn't willing to go through another complete overhaul of the roster either... Dolan is the one who needs to be convinced that a new philosophy needs to be adhered to if the Knicks are serious about building for a championship, & until he's convinced in his own head that wholesale changes need to be made, it'll just be more of the same spinning wheels in the mud crap we've been witness to for the past several years.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-16-2006 2:13 PM]

Posted by Killa4luv:

It is so interesting that everyone predicts Isah to have at least 17 more wins than LB with the same 'flawed' 'talentless' roster. Very telling.

The team talent wise is better than 23 games. No doubt, and on raw talent we can win more games.

BUt like my "Golf Swing" analogy the other day, to move 10 steps forward you must drop back and burn in the fundamentals.

Isiah is old school and buys into Bob Knights hard ass tactics. But he does not get the kinda of player that can get to that.

Larry tried, and either Isiah continues, or just adapts to the gazy nature of the team with will yield more wins, but not really progress fundamentally.

Some of us can stomach a rebuild. Some of us can't.

Posted by simrud:

Brilliant, you found one example of you being right. Yet there are dozens that prove you wrong. Buts its ok as long as IT is here isnt it.

same thing happened when Brown was fired by the Pacers (by Donnie Walsh, no less!). They won 39 games in Brown's last season in 96-97 and won 58 games in Larry Bird's first season in 97-98 with the SAME roster. The reason Brown was fired: the players had tuned him out.

Until we can go 10 games without quitting on themselves we don't need to worry about our team winning 39 games.

My coach junior year went to my father and told him I was a bast-ard in practice. My father took all the stuff out of my room and would not return it until I proved myself. I also got swatted with the belt a few times. I hated my coach with a passion. But when the ball was tossed up, if you were lined up across from me I was going to rip your heart out. Winning, is for me and my teammates. NOt for the coach. I rebel against my coach by hating him on my own. But when I'm on the floor I know I must be on the same page as him if I am going to win. And winning is the only thing I want. Your Knicks don't think this way. And yet most of our fans want to keep these players and find a coach that will help them to feel better about themselves. Guys like me(obviously with more talent) eat guys like that alive. Thus 23 games won.

I would like to see Marbury put on an already established successfull team being added say for an ending contract and a pick. Like Memphis, Indy, Denver, Dallas without any of them making any drastic changes to there roster. Though Dallas would have to give up One of there pgs. And see how he would handle it there. Since we already seen him traded to a rebuilding/transitional situation. And has struggled to win for no matter what the reason. I agree that Marbury has not shown the cappablities to make players respect him as a leader. We all knew that Marbury wasn't a true leader. Yet every yr we bash him for not being a cappable one because we have hardly anyone else on the team cappable. Is that Marburys fault?? Maybe Isiah should have been looking for more players with leadership qualities than just talent. But again that falls under putting Marbury in a position of strength and a position to succeed. Sort of save him from himself. If Marbury's lack of leadership is a weakness that is holding Marbury & the team back from success. Then you add in players with leadership skills to neutralize that. Id say M.Rose is the only player on this team that probably has the those leadership skills. And I think Isiah brought in Jerome James because he thought he showed leadership with the Sonics last yr. Larry Brown did that with Iverson in Philly and Iverson was worse than Marbury. Iverson seemed to be a horrible off the court leader. It makes sense why Brown would get rid of so many young guys with talent and keep Iverson surrounded by role players with leadership skills.

We could blame Marbury for not completely changing his faults though he did mature a lot. But we also got to keep in perspective that he was put in a position to exploit them more then cover them. If Marbury grew on a team with some nice established quality vets. He would definatly be benifiting from that today. Was there ever a player that Marbury played with when he was younger that you could say showed him how to lead? Which is why we got to stick with Brown if we are to stick with Marbury. Even though Brown did a bad job this season which gives us the right to rip him. Because Larry Brown has been through it and knows what to do in the long run. But this team isn't for Marbury anymore. This team is for Eddie Curry & Frye. I seriously doubt that Larry Brown felt he could turn the Knicks around without replacing Curry & probably Frye for defensive bigs that he has had success with everywhere. Or that he could win without trading Marbury to find veteran role players specificly with leadership skills and defensive skills to mix in with the young guys like Frye & Curry. Larry Brown did say that he didn't want to move Marbury for garbage and only if it was for a Kobe Bryant. So that leaves Eddie Curry & Frye. Which could become where the fell apart.

Posted by djsunyc:

can i ask everybody a question? why can guys like layden and isiah be allowed to work through their mistakes and why can guys on our roster remain when they are less than professional yet our coaches never get extended the same courtesy?

why is there patience for a gm but none for a coach?

isiah has this team as the butt of every joke in the nba. dolan is a clueless dolt. and we have a roster full of losers. yet the only guy that's done anything in his career is gone after one season. larry brown, gone after one season.

why is this and why are you guys so supportive of it?

You are right in the larger sense, but in this case there was no "mistake" by LB. He was virtually throwing the games.

oohah

In that same "sense" is Isiah throwing the roster? Is Dolan throwing the corporation?

There is absolutely no comparison. As much as Dolan or Isiah suck, they are still trying to win. They aren't trying to prove any points. There is a big difference between a poor performance and not even trying to do what you are hired to do.

It is about your intention. If you aren't coaching to win, then you are throwing games. Show me something similar to that in any move that Isiah did.

oohah