jskinny35 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Another tech tonight on him cursing out the refs when the refs were right. The win over the Cavs will obscure it, but I really think the guy has got to go.

It was a bad T but really? You want the guy fired over that?

Thibs has issues but I’ve lived through duds like Fizdale and Kurt Rambis

Thibs has some strengths - he did instill a defensive concept/emphasis when he first took over. He offers stability and is consistent.
Thibs has some negatives - he not offensively creative at all, he tends to overuse his fave players, he wears out his welcome eventually

I think the Knicks would be foolish to try to build from mediocrity as believe it's very unlikely a 27 year Durant-type player will want to join the Knicks without depleting us of our roster and picks. And that's what would work with this existing roster (like Nets a few years back). Even if a Booker were to become available via trade - it would surely cost us our future and we'd be left with Randle or RJ as the other player to complement - is that close to enough to contend? I think no so hope we look at ourselves in the mirror and take 2 steps back with the hope we eventually leap 3-4 steps forward via young talent and a different coaching philosophy.

Moving Randle, Fournier, Rose could yield us at least one #1 pick (ex Lakers). Maybe that includes RJ or IQ as well... Hiring a Kenny Atkinson-type coach would allow for us to make decisions on which young players are worth keeping/resigning or trading. So while Thibs served an important purpose (stabilized the Knicks, improved effort) early on - I think we are somewhat deluded with keeping him ("win now" approach) and trying to incrementally progress with the current roster (without making significant moves). I'm not feeling particularly inpatient and would be fine if it takes longer to continue building incrementally - just think we are going about it the wrong way with a roster of young kids and a coach that prioritizes winning every game at all costs.

Regardless of my opinion and recent win - don't think Thibs makes it past the new year...

You think Thibs is getting fired during the season?

We suffer a few more similar blowouts in the same week and I think he will get fired (or resign).

dude you are not even close to reading the room

The room I'm reading is we have an owner who gets more impatient vs most fans here... pressure to Leon will get transferred to Thibs (save his job) eventually. The pot is already on the stove - what happens in the next two weeks will determine a lot. If they show consistent effort and play hard - he will stay. If we continue under 500% and there are continued blowouts - I believe he will go.
Guess we'll wait and see...

Here's something from the room that matters:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1599613176106332161

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Another tech tonight on him cursing out the refs when the refs were right. The win over the Cavs will obscure it, but I really think the guy has got to go.

It was a bad T but really? You want the guy fired over that?

Thibs has issues but I’ve lived through duds like Fizdale and Kurt Rambis

Thibs has some strengths - he did instill a defensive concept/emphasis when he first took over. He offers stability and is consistent.
Thibs has some negatives - he not offensively creative at all, he tends to overuse his fave players, he wears out his welcome eventually

I think the Knicks would be foolish to try to build from mediocrity as believe it's very unlikely a 27 year Durant-type player will want to join the Knicks without depleting us of our roster and picks. And that's what would work with this existing roster (like Nets a few years back). Even if a Booker were to become available via trade - it would surely cost us our future and we'd be left with Randle or RJ as the other player to complement - is that close to enough to contend? I think no so hope we look at ourselves in the mirror and take 2 steps back with the hope we eventually leap 3-4 steps forward via young talent and a different coaching philosophy.

Moving Randle, Fournier, Rose could yield us at least one #1 pick (ex Lakers). Maybe that includes RJ or IQ as well... Hiring a Kenny Atkinson-type coach would allow for us to make decisions on which young players are worth keeping/resigning or trading. So while Thibs served an important purpose (stabilized the Knicks, improved effort) early on - I think we are somewhat deluded with keeping him ("win now" approach) and trying to incrementally progress with the current roster (without making significant moves). I'm not feeling particularly inpatient and would be fine if it takes longer to continue building incrementally - just think we are going about it the wrong way with a roster of young kids and a coach that prioritizes winning every game at all costs.

Regardless of my opinion and recent win - don't think Thibs makes it past the new year...

You think Thibs is getting fired during the season?

We suffer a few more similar blowouts in the same week and I think he will get fired (or resign).

dude you are not even close to reading the room

The room I'm reading is we have an owner who gets more impatient vs most fans here... pressure to Leon will get transferred to Thibs (save his job) eventually. The pot is already on the stove - what happens in the next two weeks will determine a lot. If they show consistent effort and play hard - he will stay. If we continue under 500% and there are continued blowouts - I believe he will go.
Guess we'll wait and see...

well that makes more sense cause you are not in that room. Give me one sign or indication Dolan is impatient or restless. Just one...

Here's something from the room that matters:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1599613176106332161

Dolan and the FO hides from the media so information has always been speculative...

I'm not in the room but have followed Dolan through the years - we can agree to disagree as the future will determine what actually happens. That said - are you really going to argue that Dolan has not historically been inpatient and made numerous changes? I will acknowledge he's improved since the earlier years - but look at how many coaches, roster overhauls, FO teams, trades we got screwed on he's been a part of. We know he used to over-involve himself in specific trades... so while I will grant he has gotten better - this is year 3 and 1/2 for Rose and we are actually performing worse vs previous years. Our development is still undetermined for several players nearing decision-time. And while I'm sure Leon told him about the long-term plan to build incrementally - when you have many blowouts that show poor defensive effort (and you're known as a defensive coach) - the seat will eventually heat up. Maybe a big trade could be the shake up that's needed - but I don't expect 0 changes to occur before the end of the season.

If the blowouts continue - something will happen and I'm basing this on the past experiences (best predictor of future is past behavior).

My perspective is rooted/based on accurate Dolan history.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:I am no Thibs apologist, but the Knicks are 2.5 games out of 5th place in the east. As delusional as this may or may not sound, the goal for this team to compete for a playoff/play-in spot. Barring a catastrophic collapse, Thibs will be here for the rest of season and probably next year as well. He's a good coach, but his relationship with the team's president doesn't hurt....

exactly... no need to be an apologist. Thibs is a B+ coach. The guys play hard. We have one consistent scorer in the whole rotation. Our best players are Brunson, Randle and Barret. They are surrounded with a bunch of guys who are very young.

It's gonna be painful to watch sometimes. That's how young players grow. I mean we are Brunson/Randle/RJ every night and hope the kids help. The roster isnt **** but it clearly lacks difference making talent and I think our path to acquire that is as promising as its been for a couple decades.

...As for the bold that's a positive. It's the closest we have been to having a HC and FO on the same page. They HAVE to be.

Realistically we are a bad 3 weeks from joining the bottom dwellers. We saw that last year and the only reason I can say we should trend up is we are young and cant shoot any worse. Its clear they are pretty committed and believe in Grimes. I mean great. Look at Anfernee Simmons. The guy's amazing. Portland just had to wait a few years you know... while he went from being a good college player to a good NBA player

Would anyone be surprised if some of these guys turned positive corners and elevated the team? There's a lot of options... this is time to be patient.

Barrett is third youngest player. Two months older than Deuce.
Mitch is 5 months older than Sims.
Obi is a month older than Mitch. he'll be 25 March 4th.
Cam is 5th youngest.

Fish and Nolads………I will give you guys credit. You’ve been consistently optimistic since I joined this forum. And you know what else been consistent? Our mediocrity.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:I am no Thibs apologist, but the Knicks are 2.5 games out of 5th place in the east. As delusional as this may or may not sound, the goal for this team to compete for a playoff/play-in spot. Barring a catastrophic collapse, Thibs will be here for the rest of season and probably next year as well. He's a good coach, but his relationship with the team's president doesn't hurt....

exactly... no need to be an apologist. Thibs is a B+ coach. The guys play hard. We have one consistent scorer in the whole rotation. Our best players are Brunson, Randle and Barret. They are surrounded with a bunch of guys who are very young.

It's gonna be painful to watch sometimes. That's how young players grow. I mean we are Brunson/Randle/RJ every night and hope the kids help. The roster isnt **** but it clearly lacks difference making talent and I think our path to acquire that is as promising as its been for a couple decades.

...As for the bold that's a positive. It's the closest we have been to having a HC and FO on the same page. They HAVE to be.

Realistically we are a bad 3 weeks from joining the bottom dwellers. We saw that last year and the only reason I can say we should trend up is we are young and cant shoot any worse. Its clear they are pretty committed and believe in Grimes. I mean great. Look at Anfernee Simmons. The guy's amazing. Portland just had to wait a few years you know... while he went from being a good college player to a good NBA player

Would anyone be surprised if some of these guys turned positive corners and elevated the team? There's a lot of options... this is time to be patient.

Barrett is third youngest player. Two months older than Deuce.
Mitch is 5 months older than Sims.
Obi is a month older than Mitch. he'll be 25 March 4th.
Cam is 5th youngest.

Fish and Nolads………I will give you guys credit. You’ve been consistently optimistic since I joined this forum. And you know what else been consistent? Our mediocrity.

Mediocrity would be an improvement. For the better part of the last 20 years we are less than. 3 winning seasons in last 20.

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

so all these bloated expectations are wack becuase in times of lockdown we were 10 games over .500.
We go the 4th seed because the music stopped in our favor.
We lost a series to ATL. Then Randle had a bad season and we won 37 games.
Did we not enjoy "we here" season? I did.
It was more fun than last season.

The GPS says the path to success has to include time in Mediocrity.
no faith in the plan? Its like Religion, you only want what happend in the past. The future is "faith".
Faith defined is: An unsubstantiated belief
Want retreads of past success players. Thats starphuching.

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

franco12 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:For all the fire Thibs and tank guys ....ask yourself this question. Are you willong to be the Detroit Pistons for the next 3 years......because thats what the upside of a strip down rebuild looks like. There may be a longer term rainbow coming for the Pistons....but it also requires multi year patience that many Knicks fans don't seem to have.

not everyone want's a tear down. I'm worried the guys are tuning out Thibs, their development is being stunted and he is not holding Randle as accountable as he should.

I'd be happy with a trade of Randle - but even here - I think a new coach might be better able to get him in line.

And then you see what you have. Was it the coach, or are the players just bad? In which case, what are we trying to build with them?

Franco - I think we are of a similar opinion. I may be arguing more fervently. I’m closer to “something needs to change” but I think your point is on target that coach isn’t connecting to the players.

Foosballnick, In terms of Detroit tanking, I mean, look at Philly and Minnesota. Can’t promise you win the lottery and the pick pans out, but you get Embiid you are a contender. Got to kiss a lot of frogs though. It’s easier for me to rationalize kissing rookie frogs than watching this team with the hope they magically change their style. I don’t see the impetus for change.

I don’t know if I really have the stomach to watch a Detroit level tank, but I mean, have the last 20
Years been much better?

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

KnickDanger wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bull**** reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.

Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-randle-shot-chart-this-season Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-general?dir=D&sort=FG3_PCT Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.