nyknickzingis wrote:One knock on Hornachek, he's been really stubborn with the starters roles. Even Breen suggested that with the constant complaints that the team is low on energy, stagnant, not moving quick enough on D, why not play smaller and quicker? Why not give KP at 5, Melo at 4, Holiday at 3, Rose at 2 and BJ at 1 a try for a few games? What's the worst thing that can happen there? We lose? I just don't get his stubborness when it comes to the starters.

Anyway I did like how they played in the 4th and tend to play in general with the 2nd unit and KP. That's our best bet moving forward. Find players that like to play at a high pace, unselfish, can shoot and defend. Easier said than done, but we should abandon the "lets trade for another team's franchise player who is on his way down" model for good. It's been our model for too long. This Melo/Rose disaster pairing should cement that.

Agreed. If players are t getting your message put them on the bench so they can watch the other players who are getting it. Full accountability. Worst case coach is wrong and the players who are playing poorly actually need the rest. Best case they respond

Great player hate to lose. All players hate to sit

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

This is the kind of game that gets a coach or gm fired.

I mean, I don't want to harp on this - but Hornacek does not seem like a very good coach. He's in a horrible position, put there by Phil, but man this looks like a complete mess. The team is in shambles and has no plan on offense or defense.

It's the players!!! More than anything it's PLAYERS FIRST and then the coach. It's not like there's some secret defense that none of the Knicks coaches know about. At a certain point you have to fill your team with 2 way players that play TEAM BALL if you want to win.

Maybe it's the players but. Maybe it is the president but who usually takes the fall?

Dolan has to have spoken to Phil who I'm sure has told him the path forward is to rebuild around KP. I don't think Dolan is going to panic. He gave Glen Sather AMPLE time to rebuild the Rangers and I expect he'll be patient with Phil knowing how popular KP is and having a chance to add more young talent.

Hopefully. Do you think Jeff's job is secure? I loved the hire but this has been a huge let down.

I think you have to give Jeff a chance to work with a young group of talent that will play HARD and listen. The young guys do that and I suspect things will look much different in terms of effort and hustle. Even if they still lose it won't be as lethargic.

When Phil was a coach he sometimes let the players play through rough patch so they could figure it out themselves i.e. Not hyper w time outs etc

Maybe that's what he's doing w Jeff

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

No. Just no. Melo is ****ing awful on defense and he rarely tries.

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

No. Just no. Melo is ****ing awful on defense and he rarely tries.

Fucking awful No way. Thought we are talking effort right? Will agree if you show me proof of Mondays game where he just didnt try. Again lapses, yes. Enough to say no other Knick is as guilty of lapses than him? No way. KP leaves his guy how many times a game? Gets caught up in air how many times a game? Kuz, KO? What was KO +/- in limited time? COme on. Your suppose to be open minded.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

how can you say Melo tries on defense and say you watch this team this year? Same with Rose... I have been one of Melo's biggest supporters here and he has simply stopped giving effort there. The only time he tries at all is during the 2 minute drill.

Its not even about assigning blame, something I dont do or find productive. The questions are simple... is Melo holding us back? Do we have a future with Melo as a centerpiece? What is best for the future of the team? Look at Melo's #s, starting with his WS/48 and plenty of others.. this is not going in a positive direction

Amn I calling Melo a defensive jugernaut? No I am saying why all the bitching about one guy without mention of any other player including the Unicorn and the level of actual NBA talent on the team and ofcourse illustrious GM? Nothing less or more. Just short sighted to blame one guy for 121 defensive effort. It is a 9 man game right? Its just too easy by the whinning cry babies on here. They have a losing team so they have to go after the easiest target. Typical fans that probably have had as much basketball experience as their wives.

Is he the center piece? No. Can he be a integral part of a team? Yes. Is he the best we have? Absolutely! Are things going to get better when he is traded? You will see. If the second quarter of last night game is an indication then it sure as hell will not. Just a bunch of over achievers getting their asses kicked every game. WIth each one having a good game every once in a while. Look at how people talk about Kuz or Willy or KO when they have one good game. Ignoring the previous games or even years(KO case) of lack of production. Its what fans do. Over hype their pipe dreams and blame a guy who is good for not being LBJ.

nyknickzingis wrote:Anthony at 3 is a horrible defender. There is statistical proof.

The best ratings for Melo lineups defensively are

Noah-Anthony-Thomas-Lee-Rose 1.01
Noah-Anthony-Kuz-lee-Rose .96

The current starting 5 with Melo at 3 is one of our worst. 1.15
Last nights starting 5 with OQuinn at 5 instead of Noah is even worse at 1.25

Few things I've come to terms with.

Melo is a 4. At 3 he is forcing post ups on smaller guys isolating too much and defensively he's slow as hell.
Noah's value as a defender may be underrated.

Problem - KP is a 4. Maybe KP can close at 5 but he's most comfortable at 4.

So ask yourself Melo fans. Are you Knick fans or Melo first fans? To me the choice is simple. Move Melo to 4 or trade him. Since KP is not ready to be a 5, you just have to trade Melo. No other choice.

It's not even effort.
Just match up wise Melo at 3 doesn't work for us against most teams. But guess what? Guess who wanted Melo at 4 for years? MDA. Guess who hated that? Melo. Melo doesn't want to do what's best for the team. Best for the team is Melo play 4 and play a Dad Melo role. What does Melo like to do? Play 3 and shoot first. Yet people still support the guy.

Agreed. So what do you think we can get for KP?
Here is the thing, KP still can't guard a stretch 4, or 5 and definately not a 3, which btw, your good 4' can do. As the the 3 and 4 should be interchangeable on defense. But your right, the young Unicorn is not going anywhere. And Melo is better suited at 4. Question is, when will Melo decide it's enough? Tired of while situation and hope he chooses to go elsewhere. Then watch out, KP will have a target on his chest. And many will be commenting the whole way through.

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Because those guys play to win, Melo plays to "get his"

I think he wants to win, I just don't think he gets it.

edit: We also have seen how much better he plays with a smart PG like Billups or Kidd.

Wanting to win and not getting it are not compatible. He has had an entire career worth of coaches telling him what to do. He definitely knows what he needs to change, he is too fukking selfish to even bother trying.

I don't really buy that. I just think that people expect him to be able to be a master playmaker like Lebron and it's really not in his skillset. Because of their draft history, he'll always be compared to Lebron, but that's not him. Melo should've always been the leading scorer on a team where ANOTHER guy had the ball in his hands the whole time. Like if he'd played his whole career with Billups or Kidd or CP3. That's what Melo needed. He only got it a few years of his career.

Whatever - they've hit the point of no return now. Melo needs to go. It's the best for all parties.

I guess I don't buy that either. People have had fairly reasonable expectations of him. He has never once in his career shown the will or desire to play hard consistently on both sides of the ball and put the team ahead of his own needs. If he had done those two simple things about 95% of his detractors would see him differently. No one realistically expects him to be Lebron, he just isn't even close to being that good.

Interesting that the new article suggests both that he doesn't really care about winning to the extent a Kobe or a Jordan did and that Phil at least did want to build him up along those lines. It just goes to show that talent alone doesn't make winners it makes sore losers unless it comes equipped with the determination to win. Melo has put himself ahead of everything else his entire career and it's finally catching up to him. That is the true definition of selfishness. Now I am not saying he cannot be unselfish outside of basketball or he had not done charitable things but that isn't what we are discussing here. He had shown single-minded selfishness in everything basketball.