NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I studied the bible heavily a couple of yrs ago. And while i'm not close to knowing everything or being an expert. There are some conclusions that I have come to.

First and foremost God is real. If God wasn't real then he was made up by man. Meaning there would be a time period in mans history where there was no God in existence. There is no documented time period in mans history that God wasn't in existence.

Second, Gods law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. God created a lot of rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions, guidlines to follow throughout the bible. Everything from what to eat Whatever divides the hoof and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud (Leviticus 11:3), whatever has fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, those you shall eat. (verse 9), sex, taxes etc etc etc. Every single guidline has its purpose to keep the order in society. More proof of his existence in my eyes as why would man(without Gods influence) create laws on what was good to eat or not eat during this time frame? How would they know the affects of any food to call it good or bad? Or laws of marriage, as Jrodmc stated kept the order of society for centuries. There is no way for them during this time period to know the negative affects of these actions on society to put these laws into place.

Now again the law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. But the rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions are changeable based on where man kind was at in there development. Notice how God at first in the bible stated to be fruitful and multiple allowing siblings to have sex with each other to fill the earth. Then later on put out the law that siblings were no longer allowed to have sex with each other. As in the beginning this was necessary for the earth to be filled but after the earth was filled it was no longer necessary so in order to keep society in order God decided to update his instructions. This was heavily taught by Jesus as the Scribes and Pharisees would often follow the laws as well as create there own laws to benefit themselves. But wouldn't follow Gods eternal law of LOVE.

Mark 3:1-6
3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Clearly Jesus was stating that allowing a man to die just to follow Gods law of not doing any work on the Sabbath wasn't Gods will. Which clarifies that Gods law of LOVE overrides everything.

Third, I don't know what causes an individual to be gay. But I don't think we are at the part of mans development that passes judgement. If being Gay is wrong, I don't believe that it will lead to individuals burning in hell for eternity. There will be a time period where God lifts the curse from the earth and heaven will come down to earth and we will live under Jesus rule to be shown the proper way to live. If being homosexual is against Gods will then most likely the thought processes that goes with being homosexual will be removed. If homosexuality is a natural part of life then the thought process of being against homosexuals will be removed. The last 2 sentences were just my opinion though not biblical fact.

So in other words, every other religion is wrong but yours is right....because it says that it is. And somehow, there was no order before it....and yet many of the greatest empires came before anyone ever even conceived of it. Awesome bro.

I stated the conclusions that I came to that is all. I didn't write this to claim that I was right and everyone else was wrong, just sharing my thoughts.

With that said the earliest known civilization documented in mans history is Mesopotamia which was created after the flood of Noah. If I am wrong I would like to be educated.

You can believe what you want to believe but the Bible is no real historical account. If it was, the book would be continually expanding and updating itself; while focusing on more than the accounts of a random nomadic tribe.

You know what's interesting about Christianity though? Every other present day religion maintains it's highest concentration of followers in the areas/regions they originated: the Buddhist/Daoist still dominants East Asia, the Muslim still dominants the Middle East, the Hindu in India. Christianity is the only religion whose message was so compelling that hardly anyone in the region where it began, still follows it. The highest concentration of Christians today, exist in conquered lands. The conquerors came with their Bibles and took the land and all the resources therein of the indigenous peoples'. Today, all that the progeny of these indigenous people have are their Bibles, while the descendants of the conquerors have no need for theirs'. I think that's all I needed to know about Christianity, when I stopped being a Catholic. Perhaps that's something you should consider as "a strong Black man".

Yea but we took their land and raped their women and children in the name of The Lord so it's ok!

Through science weapons of mass destruction have been created killing millions of people. Through technology weapons have been created killing millions of people. Through sex people have been sold for profit & raped. Through Government & Politics people have suppressed others for there own personal gain.

Maybe mankind is just flawed, and have continually tainted there(Religion, Science, Technology, Sex, Government) purpose for personal gain. Or should we do away with Religion, Science, Technology, Sex, & Government? Would the world then be a better place?

So at best, religion is flawed because like government, it was created and is safeguarded by man. So why should we be pretending that it is the "final authority" for anyone or anything? Why do you wield it as some kind of infallible tool. "It says God exists.....so God must exist". "It says homosexuality is a sin.... so it MUST be sin".

I'm really not trying to continue this argument because clearly you have your views set in stone and I have mine. Neither of us are going to bend. So all that's going to happen is us arguing for days only to realize what we already know. Which is that we don't know everything.

But you are missing the point and have been since your first reply to me. Religion isn't flawed because its only a tool, same as science, government, technology etc etc.. All these tools can be manipulated by man for good or evil. Same as money, money can't be flawed because its only a tool. Its man kind that is flawed. If mankind was perfect then all these would automatically become perfect. I can use water to drown and kill a man or I could use water to replenish a man who's thirsty.

I also didn't say religion was the final authority for anyone or anything. If you actually read the original post which you replied to me its actually the opposite view. Religion isn't the final authority, Gods law of Love is the final authority for anyone or anything. If you use Gods law of love as dominion over any tool then you would only use these tools for good. If everyone followed Gods law of Love then there would be no wars saving billions upon billions of dollars to give back to the people. Farmers wouldn't need to destroy food in order to keep prices at a specific rate while people starve to death throughout the world. Taxes would be 100% used for its intended purpose without man dipping his hand in the cookie jar for there own personal gain. Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I understand why you feel the way you feel. Religion has been so corrupted by man that its easy to see why people denounce it.Again I don't have the answers to why a man is gay or not gay. If a man is gay or not we are all flawed sinners regardless. Under the New testament of the bible it is believed that heaven will come down on earth and we will be shown the proper way to live under Jesus rule for 1,000 years. Everyone will get a chance to live under this rule no matter what your beliefs were on earth as your heart is what will be judged not our beliefs. All the tools at our exposure will be used in there correct manner. Satan will be locked away for these 1,000 yrs freeing us from negative influence. This is the fear many believers have toward getting accustomed to a certain life style on earth as under Jesus rule you may not live the life style you grew accustomed to on earth. After the 1,000 yrs Satan will be released and there will be a final battle of Armageddon in which people that preferred the life style they had on earth will join Satan to fight for there right to live the life style they want and be wiped out from existence. And when I say life style I am not specifically talking about homosexuals but everything from being super wealthy to swingers etc.

In closing, I am not trying to tell you what to believe or claim I am right and you are wrong. The only point I care to make throughout any of this is that God's law is Love. No matter that our beliefs are different, i'm sure that at the end of the day we both desire peace and love for everyone.

All tools are flawed. An X-Ray gives us the opportunity to inexpensively examine internal injuries but can also cast shadows that lead to false-positives. Injuries also don't happen 2-dimensionally so there is that obvious limitation as well.

Whatever tool you can think of, there are inherent flaws and in that sense, religion is no different. You say that men corrupt religion but man also wrote/created religion e.g. Matthew, Luke, John, etc. Why then is it so unreasonable to presume then that religion is inherently corrupt? And if it is inherently corrupt, to what extent is it inherently corrupt? When the bulk of it consists of these fantastic stories that defy my reality and that of any peer-reviewed historical account, how can I not presume that all of it is corrupt?

That being said, I didn't mean to attack you specifically. As much as it isn't my cup of tea, I recognize that religion could serve a positive end for some; it seems to be the case for you. All too often though, religion is used as "home base" to spew bigotry and eccentric views without having to answer for them. That has consistently been the case for jrodmc and others. As I said before, I meant no ill will towards you but at the same time, those guys are very much in your camp. Since you were the first to officially begin to introduce biblical quotes, you became a target for response. That was all.

The problem is you are blaming the tool rather then the wilder. Like blaming the gun rather then the shooter. And for some reason only Religion is under trial while all other tools are let be. Should all scientific theory be ruled out because man can use it incorrectly to practically end man kind and has caused wars and fear between countries? Since all history and tools are capable of being corrupted then under your views you shouldn't believe anything and should have any stances on any issues. Sams coming out could be a lie and he isn't really gay and has been a made up media creation and until I see him actually have sexual intercourse with a man I don't believe it.

Man didn't create Religion, Science, Technology, Government, etc.. Man is imitating the order that was already established in heaven. Before man ever had the technology to do so we were able to build pyramids that today we still don't understand how they were capable of doing so given there resources. In the bible it talks about heavens and universe yet man didn't have the technology or the education to know about these things until the 1700s. Homo sapiens were supposed to have evolved 250k-400k years ago according to scientific theory. So it took around 250-400k years to discover fire, but after we discovered fire it only took 4,000 yrs to advance to the level we are at today with no literary documentation of life before hand.

There is more likely hood of God creating the earth making all things possible then all things happening by chance. To a lesser extent would be like if people decided to randomly build houses without any blueprints on how to even build houses yet ended up building New York city. If man made up God then then there should be a documented civilization that was established before God was ever mentioned. And we should know of a civilization governing body who first started to establish God.

Yet there is 0 documentation of this and tons of documentation claiming the opposite. But yet because the documentation can be corrupted or misused it shouldn't be accepted. Then nothing should ever be accepted.

virtually everything written in the bible is neither testable nor provable. that's part of the reason you have to take things on faith when it comes to religion and religious books.

but if you have cross-references from other cultures or societies outside the bible then at least you have some minor proof that such a person or people existed. for example, there are some egyptian texts that mention "habirus" i believe, which may relate to the hebrews, a nomadic people. but i don't believe there is any further details provided. tacitus mentions a "xristos" in his annals as well, but not much detail about him other than he was in fact executed by a roman. so far as i know no other societies mention adam and eve, noah, abraham, moses, samson, saul, david, or solomon. they may never have existed.

meanwhile homosexuality exists all over the animal kingdom, while many ancient greeks in fact found homosexuality normal and natural and acceptable. not all, but certainly a majority. these were the same greeks that are the foundation of western societies and were the most scientifically advanced people in the western hemisphere.

the speed of light tells how old the universe is. our dna is telling us where we come from. carbon dating tells us how old fossils are, including human fossils. modern anatomical humans have existed for 200,000 years, while the archaic human species have been around for 500,000 years. many modern humans carry around dna that emerged 500,000 years ago.

the bible is a wonderful book with some useful guidlelines and insights. it is also rife with contradictions and violence and murder.

jrodmc wrote:And it has more manuscript evidence than any ancient book we have knowledge of. And that manuscript evidence corroborates the witness of scripture to something near 99% accuracy across 4000 years or so of available history. So much for the Holy Spirit's telephone.

And this proves what exactly? The only thing it demonstrates is that there were a bunch of Bibles in circulation that survived decay and that the consistency of the content from Bible-to-Bible was high. It offers nothing in the way of suggesting that the content found in the book is actually true. Furthermore, the website that you got this dribble from ( http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence#footnote1_hsyn17f ) hardly even tries to present itself as a scholarly source and is extremely lacking in the way of intellectual insight or curiosity. Case and point, it's central and erroneous defense for the validity of the Bible is that "...there were plenty of people around when the New Testament documents were penned, people who could have contested the writings". What these morons fail to acknowledge is that the literacy rate was virtually nill for the overwhelming majority of people who were not rulers or of noble birth. It wasn't until the Renaissance that this trend began to change and in spite of it, the Bible was either kept in Hebrew or Latin.....none of which the average Joe of the time could understand. So how could these "plenty of people" contest writings that they could not even read? I suppose that only divine intervention could answer that one.

The fact of the matter is that many of the most prominent historians of Jesus' day had very little to say about him, which seems rather odd considering that he was such a "transcendent" figure. That would be akin to historians of the 1800's forgetting to chronicle the rise and fall of Napoleon or some other major figure of the day. Like I've been saying, the evidence in favor of the validity for the Bible is shaky at best.

jrodmc wrote:But nevermind all that. There's some moral directives in there that some people don't agree with, and kangaroos lived in Australia, so the whole thing is full of ****. If it's uncomfortable, or I don't like it, why the eff should I believe it? It's 2014, for the love of ...ummm... the "catalyst"! Or the invisible earth-seeding spacemen, err woman, err spaceperson!

The whole book is aimed and directed at one story: the redemption of man. And you've got pages and pages in here that show, despite our fantastic scientific advances based on walking on the backs of giants, we're worse off now then we've ever been. Count the corpses.

Better off when things like the Bubonic Plague killed 70% of the European population? Better off when the Crusades were launched and there was a never ending cycle of war because of religion? Better off when the average age of man was a quarter of what it is today? I'd strongly advise you to read a history book- any history book, to help update yourself on the happenings of the world.

jrodmc wrote:"The depravity of man is at one time the most empirically verifiable fact, while it's the most intellectually resisted" - Malcolm Muggeridge

And while you will no doubt continue to be regaled with brilliant responses about what "reasonable, modern man" can be expected to believe, check out the Advanced Physics department at Oxford. Seems alot of those cats don't seem to have a problem believing "fiction". And I doubt any of the geniuses in this thread could qualify to park cars at that level.

Really? Name them and what they have to say on the matter specifically. I'm hoping that you'll find a better source beyond the deep recesses of your ass.

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I studied the bible heavily a couple of yrs ago. And while i'm not close to knowing everything or being an expert. There are some conclusions that I have come to.

First and foremost God is real. If God wasn't real then he was made up by man. Meaning there would be a time period in mans history where there was no God in existence. There is no documented time period in mans history that God wasn't in existence.

Second, Gods law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. God created a lot of rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions, guidlines to follow throughout the bible. Everything from what to eat Whatever divides the hoof and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud (Leviticus 11:3), whatever has fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, those you shall eat. (verse 9), sex, taxes etc etc etc. Every single guidline has its purpose to keep the order in society. More proof of his existence in my eyes as why would man(without Gods influence) create laws on what was good to eat or not eat during this time frame? How would they know the affects of any food to call it good or bad? Or laws of marriage, as Jrodmc stated kept the order of society for centuries. There is no way for them during this time period to know the negative affects of these actions on society to put these laws into place.

Now again the law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. But the rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions are changeable based on where man kind was at in there development. Notice how God at first in the bible stated to be fruitful and multiple allowing siblings to have sex with each other to fill the earth. Then later on put out the law that siblings were no longer allowed to have sex with each other. As in the beginning this was necessary for the earth to be filled but after the earth was filled it was no longer necessary so in order to keep society in order God decided to update his instructions. This was heavily taught by Jesus as the Scribes and Pharisees would often follow the laws as well as create there own laws to benefit themselves. But wouldn't follow Gods eternal law of LOVE.

Mark 3:1-6
3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Clearly Jesus was stating that allowing a man to die just to follow Gods law of not doing any work on the Sabbath wasn't Gods will. Which clarifies that Gods law of LOVE overrides everything.

Third, I don't know what causes an individual to be gay. But I don't think we are at the part of mans development that passes judgement. If being Gay is wrong, I don't believe that it will lead to individuals burning in hell for eternity. There will be a time period where God lifts the curse from the earth and heaven will come down to earth and we will live under Jesus rule to be shown the proper way to live. If being homosexual is against Gods will then most likely the thought processes that goes with being homosexual will be removed. If homosexuality is a natural part of life then the thought process of being against homosexuals will be removed. The last 2 sentences were just my opinion though not biblical fact.

So in other words, every other religion is wrong but yours is right....because it says that it is. And somehow, there was no order before it....and yet many of the greatest empires came before anyone ever even conceived of it. Awesome bro.

I stated the conclusions that I came to that is all. I didn't write this to claim that I was right and everyone else was wrong, just sharing my thoughts.

With that said the earliest known civilization documented in mans history is Mesopotamia which was created after the flood of Noah. If I am wrong I would like to be educated.

You can believe what you want to believe but the Bible is no real historical account. If it was, the book would be continually expanding and updating itself; while focusing on more than the accounts of a random nomadic tribe.

You know what's interesting about Christianity though? Every other present day religion maintains it's highest concentration of followers in the areas/regions they originated: the Buddhist/Daoist still dominants East Asia, the Muslim still dominants the Middle East, the Hindu in India. Christianity is the only religion whose message was so compelling that hardly anyone in the region where it began, still follows it. The highest concentration of Christians today, exist in conquered lands. The conquerors came with their Bibles and took the land and all the resources therein of the indigenous peoples'. Today, all that the progeny of these indigenous people have are their Bibles, while the descendants of the conquerors have no need for theirs'. I think that's all I needed to know about Christianity, when I stopped being a Catholic. Perhaps that's something you should consider as "a strong Black man".

Umm, Judaism says hello, mr. Scientific Method. As well as the 150 millions Christians in China; tell me, who conquered China? Did Chairman Mao use a bible? Your obvious ignorance puts you on a par with your little demi-gods like Sam Harris. And your arrogance as a lapsed Catholic makes you a pretty pathetic commentator on scripture.

The Chinese government only acknowledges 14 million Christians, although international bodies believe that the number is actually closer to 90 million. Whatever the real figure is, it is a far cry from the 150 million you suggest. Even if it were real, there are 1.3 billion people in China, which would mean that Christians would represent just 11.5% of the population. And if you know anything about China, you would know that it has been conquered/occupied by the Monogolians, Japanese and England. The English, in particular, occupied Hong Kong until 1997. So yeah, my comment still stands.

In the future, please remember that a response alone is not inherently a sufficient rebuttal. You have a tendency to shift arguments and create phantom conversations and resort to insults in order to help fill the vacuum. Just so you know though, you're not fooling anyone into thinking that you have anything insightful to say.

And the Chinese were all converted to Christianity by the English? Hong Kong is a small island off the coast, genius. And how many Jews are there dispersed across the planet? Oh yeah, quote some statistics, wave your hand, and your idiotic point still stands. You really must be fun at those frat parties, Nard.

And just for future reference, the dead giveaway to posting imbecility is to try and set the rules for posting.

You have a great habit of pontificating "facts", getting called out on said "facts" and then whining pointlessly without admitting you were wrong to begin with. In case you didn't realize it, it's tiresome.

No, but the Englishmens' presence certainly helped to introduce and propagate the spread of the religion, as it had throughout the rest of the empire. Hong Kong may be a "small island" but it happens to be one of the most populated areas in the country and is one of the central economic engines that drive the Chinese economy. Where there is business, there is a great deal of traffic and where there is traffic, there is an opportunity to outsource ideologies. That is exactly how you get 90 million Christians in China today.

I also have no idea what point you're trying to make about the Jews. Are you trying to suggest that their religion has not spread in other countries? If so, thank you for that commonly understood fact. If you knew that, you should also know that Jews have always been an extremely small community, which is why they have generally been picked on around the world. More importantly, I've never heard of Jewish missions trying to convert every single human being in their vicinity. This is exactly why we don't have billions of Jews on the planet. On the other hand, I do know of Christian missions who actively try to do so, ringing my goddamn door bell and leaving me with pamphlets despite my objections.

With all that being said, I find it hilarious that you accuse me of getting the facts wrong, which couldn't be further from the truth. Hell, I just called you out on that bogus statistic about Chinese Christian's, which you so conveniently ignored. Delusional much? Your posts are comical to me at this point because it is so terribly predictable and so poorly formed. This is basically your gameplan:

1.) Make an outrageously erroneous claim and then get called out on it.
2.) Ignore your rebuttals and then change the topic by making wild conjectures, laced with heavy sarcasm that falls short of being witty or clever.
3.) Get your ass handed to you again, which prompts you to continue with the off-based comments and name calling (e.g. "imbecility", "whin(er)", etc.).
4.) Rinse and repeat.

I have to admit though, I do admire your stamina. You're like the "Little Engine that Could" at this point and I think it's adorable.

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I studied the bible heavily a couple of yrs ago. And while i'm not close to knowing everything or being an expert. There are some conclusions that I have come to.

First and foremost God is real. If God wasn't real then he was made up by man. Meaning there would be a time period in mans history where there was no God in existence. There is no documented time period in mans history that God wasn't in existence.

Second, Gods law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. God created a lot of rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions, guidlines to follow throughout the bible. Everything from what to eat Whatever divides the hoof and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud (Leviticus 11:3), whatever has fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, those you shall eat. (verse 9), sex, taxes etc etc etc. Every single guidline has its purpose to keep the order in society. More proof of his existence in my eyes as why would man(without Gods influence) create laws on what was good to eat or not eat during this time frame? How would they know the affects of any food to call it good or bad? Or laws of marriage, as Jrodmc stated kept the order of society for centuries. There is no way for them during this time period to know the negative affects of these actions on society to put these laws into place.

Now again the law that is eternal and unchanging is LOVE. But the rules, regulations, ordinances, instructions are changeable based on where man kind was at in there development. Notice how God at first in the bible stated to be fruitful and multiple allowing siblings to have sex with each other to fill the earth. Then later on put out the law that siblings were no longer allowed to have sex with each other. As in the beginning this was necessary for the earth to be filled but after the earth was filled it was no longer necessary so in order to keep society in order God decided to update his instructions. This was heavily taught by Jesus as the Scribes and Pharisees would often follow the laws as well as create there own laws to benefit themselves. But wouldn't follow Gods eternal law of LOVE.

Mark 3:1-6
3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Clearly Jesus was stating that allowing a man to die just to follow Gods law of not doing any work on the Sabbath wasn't Gods will. Which clarifies that Gods law of LOVE overrides everything.

Third, I don't know what causes an individual to be gay. But I don't think we are at the part of mans development that passes judgement. If being Gay is wrong, I don't believe that it will lead to individuals burning in hell for eternity. There will be a time period where God lifts the curse from the earth and heaven will come down to earth and we will live under Jesus rule to be shown the proper way to live. If being homosexual is against Gods will then most likely the thought processes that goes with being homosexual will be removed. If homosexuality is a natural part of life then the thought process of being against homosexuals will be removed. The last 2 sentences were just my opinion though not biblical fact.

So in other words, every other religion is wrong but yours is right....because it says that it is. And somehow, there was no order before it....and yet many of the greatest empires came before anyone ever even conceived of it. Awesome bro.

I stated the conclusions that I came to that is all. I didn't write this to claim that I was right and everyone else was wrong, just sharing my thoughts.

With that said the earliest known civilization documented in mans history is Mesopotamia which was created after the flood of Noah. If I am wrong I would like to be educated.

You can believe what you want to believe but the Bible is no real historical account. If it was, the book would be continually expanding and updating itself; while focusing on more than the accounts of a random nomadic tribe.

You know what's interesting about Christianity though? Every other present day religion maintains it's highest concentration of followers in the areas/regions they originated: the Buddhist/Daoist still dominants East Asia, the Muslim still dominants the Middle East, the Hindu in India. Christianity is the only religion whose message was so compelling that hardly anyone in the region where it began, still follows it. The highest concentration of Christians today, exist in conquered lands. The conquerors came with their Bibles and took the land and all the resources therein of the indigenous peoples'. Today, all that the progeny of these indigenous people have are their Bibles, while the descendants of the conquerors have no need for theirs'. I think that's all I needed to know about Christianity, when I stopped being a Catholic. Perhaps that's something you should consider as "a strong Black man".

Yea but we took their land and raped their women and children in the name of The Lord so it's ok!

Through science weapons of mass destruction have been created killing millions of people. Through technology weapons have been created killing millions of people. Through sex people have been sold for profit & raped. Through Government & Politics people have suppressed others for there own personal gain.

Maybe mankind is just flawed, and have continually tainted there(Religion, Science, Technology, Sex, Government) purpose for personal gain. Or should we do away with Religion, Science, Technology, Sex, & Government? Would the world then be a better place?

So at best, religion is flawed because like government, it was created and is safeguarded by man. So why should we be pretending that it is the "final authority" for anyone or anything? Why do you wield it as some kind of infallible tool. "It says God exists.....so God must exist". "It says homosexuality is a sin.... so it MUST be sin".

I'm really not trying to continue this argument because clearly you have your views set in stone and I have mine. Neither of us are going to bend. So all that's going to happen is us arguing for days only to realize what we already know. Which is that we don't know everything.

But you are missing the point and have been since your first reply to me. Religion isn't flawed because its only a tool, same as science, government, technology etc etc.. All these tools can be manipulated by man for good or evil. Same as money, money can't be flawed because its only a tool. Its man kind that is flawed. If mankind was perfect then all these would automatically become perfect. I can use water to drown and kill a man or I could use water to replenish a man who's thirsty.

I also didn't say religion was the final authority for anyone or anything. If you actually read the original post which you replied to me its actually the opposite view. Religion isn't the final authority, Gods law of Love is the final authority for anyone or anything. If you use Gods law of love as dominion over any tool then you would only use these tools for good. If everyone followed Gods law of Love then there would be no wars saving billions upon billions of dollars to give back to the people. Farmers wouldn't need to destroy food in order to keep prices at a specific rate while people starve to death throughout the world. Taxes would be 100% used for its intended purpose without man dipping his hand in the cookie jar for there own personal gain. Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I understand why you feel the way you feel. Religion has been so corrupted by man that its easy to see why people denounce it.Again I don't have the answers to why a man is gay or not gay. If a man is gay or not we are all flawed sinners regardless. Under the New testament of the bible it is believed that heaven will come down on earth and we will be shown the proper way to live under Jesus rule for 1,000 years. Everyone will get a chance to live under this rule no matter what your beliefs were on earth as your heart is what will be judged not our beliefs. All the tools at our exposure will be used in there correct manner. Satan will be locked away for these 1,000 yrs freeing us from negative influence. This is the fear many believers have toward getting accustomed to a certain life style on earth as under Jesus rule you may not live the life style you grew accustomed to on earth. After the 1,000 yrs Satan will be released and there will be a final battle of Armageddon in which people that preferred the life style they had on earth will join Satan to fight for there right to live the life style they want and be wiped out from existence. And when I say life style I am not specifically talking about homosexuals but everything from being super wealthy to swingers etc.

In closing, I am not trying to tell you what to believe or claim I am right and you are wrong. The only point I care to make throughout any of this is that God's law is Love. No matter that our beliefs are different, i'm sure that at the end of the day we both desire peace and love for everyone.

All tools are flawed. An X-Ray gives us the opportunity to inexpensively examine internal injuries but can also cast shadows that lead to false-positives. Injuries also don't happen 2-dimensionally so there is that obvious limitation as well.

Whatever tool you can think of, there are inherent flaws and in that sense, religion is no different. You say that men corrupt religion but man also wrote/created religion e.g. Matthew, Luke, John, etc. Why then is it so unreasonable to presume then that religion is inherently corrupt? And if it is inherently corrupt, to what extent is it inherently corrupt? When the bulk of it consists of these fantastic stories that defy my reality and that of any peer-reviewed historical account, how can I not presume that all of it is corrupt?

That being said, I didn't mean to attack you specifically. As much as it isn't my cup of tea, I recognize that religion could serve a positive end for some; it seems to be the case for you. All too often though, religion is used as "home base" to spew bigotry and eccentric views without having to answer for them. That has consistently been the case for jrodmc and others. As I said before, I meant no ill will towards you but at the same time, those guys are very much in your camp. Since you were the first to officially begin to introduce biblical quotes, you became a target for response. That was all.

As opposed to the home base of "the catalyst" for up and coming genius rationalists like Nard.

It would be good to have something trancendent to base your worldview on. Your morality is based on what? Your reason, your experience and your view of what "reason" will bring you. Check.

I have no problem with having my viewpoint questioned. I welcome the opportunity to learn and grow through this process. Unfortunately, I have a low tolerance for bull****, which is why you and I are constantly at odds.

As for my morality, I don't need a boogeyman to be a generous and empathetic person. I think we all understand what is considered proper and improper behavior. It is why there is such a great deal of overlap in moral codes for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. It's how Muslims understand the importance of charity (the Qu'ran encourages them to give 10% of their salary). It's why Atheists don't go around killing people despite acknowledging that there is no divine intervention. The list goes on and on. This shouldn't be rocket science.

NumberTwoPencil wrote:Relevant to this topic, I think:

Russia Applauds America's Efforts To Exclude Gay Athletes From Professional Sports
Vladimir Putin officially thanked the United States this week for their “rich history of making gay athletes feel unsafe and unwelcome.”

http://www.theonion.com/video/russia-applauds-americas-efforts-to-exclude-gay-at,35181/

lol, hilarious. I wonder if they really were speaking Russian.

In places like VA and KS, anal sex was not permitted until only a decade ago and i am talking even between men and women.
"In 2003 the Supreme Court reversed the decision with Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating sodomy laws in the remaining 14 states (Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, and Virginia)."

At the same time there are bills that are up for decision from Feb 2014 in Kansas... such as this...
"Both private businesses and government officials are permitted to deny 'services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges' along with 'counseling, adoption, foster care and other social services' and 'employment or employment benefits' in any way 'related to the celebration of, any marriage, domestic partnership, civil union or similar arrangement.'

While the legislation is clearly designed to target gay couples, the sheer scope of the discriminatory behavior authorized would permit businesses to deny services to straight couples if the proprietors do not approve of the couple's gender dynamic. State Rep. Emily Perry (D-Mission), who voted against the bill, warned that women who hold jobs or play other roles not condoned by hardline religious conservatives could face problems, as well."

If this bill was not broad and instead was specific to gay couples... it would probably get passed.

All of this above is just reference material...not really the topic of discussion.
And that is... why did he choose to come out now?
Dude did not want to be caught in a gay bar and then TMZ'd all over the place where the team management now has to come and talk to him after he's been drafted.

If there are bills looking to be passed in a place like Kansas like the one referenced above in 2014, any gay man who worries about his life would not be interested in playing for the Kansas City Chiefs. He's just letting their management know...hey look... this is who I am. If you cannot accept it, better not draft me. If you are worried about someone finding out about me, leaking it to the press and now you have to deal the religious and press backlash...better not draft me.

He didn't do it with any ill intentions, he's just safeguarding himself in some ways. It's not like he came out in a dress while singing in a high pitch voice when he spoke to the media. His speech, attire, personality all seemed what most people would consider traditional male. He was not looking for the attention, the straight "liberal" media gave it that kind of attention. If the media were truly "liberal", they would say "ok", move on and set an example for the general public to follow. We all know how much our general population loves to do that... blindly follow the mainstream media's opinions.

Anyway, coming back to Michael Sam, once you have answered the question for which teams he should not or cannot play, the only question is which team he should play for that are in need of a good DE. If he is good, do you think the 49ers or Giants will blink in signing him? If they don't sign, that just shows how much mental growth is still needed in pro sports. If they do sign, it will open the gates for other pro athletes to come out and be accepted, not ridiculed.

I am gay by the way.

For the people who do not understand men or women with a different sexuality, a few ways of looking at it that might help straight men are:
1. hey if more men are gay, i may get hit on by men... but at least the women to straight men ratio just went up. :)
2. as long as they don't have to participate in my bedroom and i don't have to participate in their bedroom, why should i care?
3. for many straight men, lesbian porn is hot. would you want to deny yourself that? :)
4. LOVE, that's the only gospel worth following out there. Love your fellow human beings. It sounds simplistic or cliche, but it is true. If no one is physically harming you, you should not be interested in physically harming them or putting restrictions on them that don't apply to you such as tax benefits, next-of-kin rights, etc, etc.

Cartman718 wrote:playa2...is it a perfect example of your prejudice? then i agree, but whatever else you said in your post....
christianity is 2014 years old. there are at least a few organized and well established religions that outdate christianity by a lot, so if you are going to take the religious route, maybe you should study those first before quoting scripture. who made you executioner and decide whether it was shame whether it was this or that... that's not for you to decide. all you should do is love your fellow man unless they have exhibited violent behavior.

They were called of "the way",the term christian came from unbelievers who were mocking and making fun of them.

Calling someone a christian back in the 1st century was like using the N-word, it didn't become noble until the 3 or 4th century

God in his word, called followers of Christ "sons" "Royal Priesthood" "believers" Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 1 peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.

Men who didn't believe in God called them christians 1st, because they reminded them of Jesus.

Religion is man made , being a follower of Christ is based on a spiritual relationship with the creator and his son Jesus.

God never called his followers christians or religious. Men did. They might didn't teach you this in religion.

I am speaking what the word of God says , I'm not making this up as what i say.

Take it up with God if you disapprove with what he says in his word.

Anybody can say they are christians because it's a man made religion, but anybody can't say they are a follower of Christ.