holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

y2zipper wrote:The standings stuff is a team issue, and the Knicks have lots of problems that have nothing to do with Melo, like Amar'e injuries, Felton and JR regressing into totally worthless players and being cap-strapped for the next year and a half.

That said, Melo isn't a player you can "build around" because he doesn't facilitate or distribute. He doesn't distribute because he doesn't draw double-teams, and he doesn't draw double-teams because he doesn't drive to the hoop consistently enough for assist opportunities. Players are considered "1's" are able to facilitate in some capacity, even if it's to the tune of 5-7 assists per game.

LeBron and Durant drive to the hoop about 6 times a game and shoot close to 60% on drives. Carmelo only drives to the hoop about twice a game and shoots 48% on his drives. That's where the significant difference in their games lies.

30/10 basketball is all good and everything, but 30/10 on 55%-60% driving to the hoop and adding 5-7 assists is different than 30/10 on catch-and-shoot plays and pull-up jumpers from the mid-range at 45% shooting are different things. The reason he play so well on the Olympic teams is because those teams are filled with the above-mentioned consistent penetration guys and those guys maximize what Melo can do. The question we should be asking is if we can get somebody like that and who that guy is. That's why Rondo is discussed so much.

Huh? Yes he does...

yea.. more evidence that this board is littered with donkees who dont even watch the games but are free to spout garbage as if they know what they are talking out. Melo is constantly doubled. If you actually counted the # of times he passes out of it you would be shocked.

I watch plenty of games, thank you very much. He isn't doubled as much as you think and when he is, he doesn't pass out of it as much as you think he does. It's especially true when you watch him play Indiana and other elite defenses that don't double the post.

He takes too many mid-range shots and pull-up jumpers, and his game is not conducive to creating open shots for teammates the same way that LeBron's and Durant's are. Otherwise, he'd average more assists. Assist Opportunities, the number of passes thrown and secondary assists are all actually tracked, and league-wide you get an assist about half the time you create an opportunity for an assist. Melo throws about the same number of passes as Kevin Durant and LeBron James do, but they average about twice as many assist opportunities. It means that the passes that Melo throws aren't as good as the passes that LeBron and Durant throw. People like the perpetuate the myth that there's some disparity in how well Melo's supporting cast shoots, but the numbers simply don't show any significant difference anywhere where a player sets up a ton of assist opportunities but doesn't get a big assist number to go with it. I agree that the Knicks don't have much else in the way of scoring options, but that doesn't change the fact that Melo doesn't pass enough. He's inferior in the passing categories to the other guys mentioned and it's why elite point guards that can take the ball out of his hands are always discussed as necessary when putting a team with Melo on it together.

It doesn't mean I don't want him or that he can't be a positive piece, but the team isn't going to win a lot when Melo has the ball in his hands all the time because he isn't the type of player to distribute.

the ratio of his usage rate (USG) and the assist rate (AST) supports this argument.

george and lebron is close to 1:1 while melo's is consistently 2:1 or greater

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Shooting percentage of Melo's teammates versus Bron and KD teammates doesn't support this argument...All things are not equal...

looks like zipper's post went way over your head.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

y2zipper wrote:The standings stuff is a team issue, and the Knicks have lots of problems that have nothing to do with Melo, like Amar'e injuries, Felton and JR regressing into totally worthless players and being cap-strapped for the next year and a half.

That said, Melo isn't a player you can "build around" because he doesn't facilitate or distribute. He doesn't distribute because he doesn't draw double-teams, and he doesn't draw double-teams because he doesn't drive to the hoop consistently enough for assist opportunities. Players are considered "1's" are able to facilitate in some capacity, even if it's to the tune of 5-7 assists per game.

LeBron and Durant drive to the hoop about 6 times a game and shoot close to 60% on drives. Carmelo only drives to the hoop about twice a game and shoots 48% on his drives. That's where the significant difference in their games lies.

30/10 basketball is all good and everything, but 30/10 on 55%-60% driving to the hoop and adding 5-7 assists is different than 30/10 on catch-and-shoot plays and pull-up jumpers from the mid-range at 45% shooting are different things. The reason he play so well on the Olympic teams is because those teams are filled with the above-mentioned consistent penetration guys and those guys maximize what Melo can do. The question we should be asking is if we can get somebody like that and who that guy is. That's why Rondo is discussed so much.

Huh? Yes he does...

yea.. more evidence that this board is littered with donkees who dont even watch the games but are free to spout garbage as if they know what they are talking out. Melo is constantly doubled. If you actually counted the # of times he passes out of it you would be shocked.

I watch plenty of games, thank you very much. He isn't doubled as much as you think and when he is, he doesn't pass out of it as much as you think he does. It's especially true when you watch him play Indiana and other elite defenses that don't double the post.

He takes too many mid-range shots and pull-up jumpers, and his game is not conducive to creating open shots for teammates the same way that LeBron's and Durant's are. Otherwise, he'd average more assists. Assist Opportunities, the number of passes thrown and secondary assists are all actually tracked, and league-wide you get an assist about half the time you create an opportunity for an assist. Melo throws about the same number of passes as Kevin Durant and LeBron James do, but they average about twice as many assist opportunities. It means that the passes that Melo throws aren't as good as the passes that LeBron and Durant throw. People like the perpetuate the myth that there's some disparity in how well Melo's supporting cast shoots, but the numbers simply don't show any significant difference anywhere where a player sets up a ton of assist opportunities but doesn't get a big assist number to go with it. I agree that the Knicks don't have much else in the way of scoring options, but that doesn't change the fact that Melo doesn't pass enough. He's inferior in the passing categories to the other guys mentioned and it's why elite point guards that can take the ball out of his hands are always discussed as necessary when putting a team with Melo on it together.

It doesn't mean I don't want him or that he can't be a positive piece, but the team isn't going to win a lot when Melo has the ball in his hands all the time because he isn't the type of player to distribute.

the ratio of his usage rate (USG) and the assist rate (AST) supports this argument.

george and lebron is close to 1:1 while melo's is consistently 2:1 or greater

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Shooting percentage of Melo's teammates versus Bron and KD teammates doesn't support this argument...All things are not equal...

Melo's teammates hit around .425% of shots from his passes, while the league average FG% is closer to .445. That translates only to about 0.1 assists per game - not enough to even warrant discussion.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

y2zipper wrote:The standings stuff is a team issue, and the Knicks have lots of problems that have nothing to do with Melo, like Amar'e injuries, Felton and JR regressing into totally worthless players and being cap-strapped for the next year and a half.

That said, Melo isn't a player you can "build around" because he doesn't facilitate or distribute. He doesn't distribute because he doesn't draw double-teams, and he doesn't draw double-teams because he doesn't drive to the hoop consistently enough for assist opportunities. Players are considered "1's" are able to facilitate in some capacity, even if it's to the tune of 5-7 assists per game.

LeBron and Durant drive to the hoop about 6 times a game and shoot close to 60% on drives. Carmelo only drives to the hoop about twice a game and shoots 48% on his drives. That's where the significant difference in their games lies.

30/10 basketball is all good and everything, but 30/10 on 55%-60% driving to the hoop and adding 5-7 assists is different than 30/10 on catch-and-shoot plays and pull-up jumpers from the mid-range at 45% shooting are different things. The reason he play so well on the Olympic teams is because those teams are filled with the above-mentioned consistent penetration guys and those guys maximize what Melo can do. The question we should be asking is if we can get somebody like that and who that guy is. That's why Rondo is discussed so much.

Huh? Yes he does...

yea.. more evidence that this board is littered with donkees who dont even watch the games but are free to spout garbage as if they know what they are talking out. Melo is constantly doubled. If you actually counted the # of times he passes out of it you would be shocked.

I watch plenty of games, thank you very much. He isn't doubled as much as you think and when he is, he doesn't pass out of it as much as you think he does. It's especially true when you watch him play Indiana and other elite defenses that don't double the post.

He takes too many mid-range shots and pull-up jumpers, and his game is not conducive to creating open shots for teammates the same way that LeBron's and Durant's are. Otherwise, he'd average more assists. Assist Opportunities, the number of passes thrown and secondary assists are all actually tracked, and league-wide you get an assist about half the time you create an opportunity for an assist. Melo throws about the same number of passes as Kevin Durant and LeBron James do, but they average about twice as many assist opportunities. It means that the passes that Melo throws aren't as good as the passes that LeBron and Durant throw. People like the perpetuate the myth that there's some disparity in how well Melo's supporting cast shoots, but the numbers simply don't show any significant difference anywhere where a player sets up a ton of assist opportunities but doesn't get a big assist number to go with it. I agree that the Knicks don't have much else in the way of scoring options, but that doesn't change the fact that Melo doesn't pass enough. He's inferior in the passing categories to the other guys mentioned and it's why elite point guards that can take the ball out of his hands are always discussed as necessary when putting a team with Melo on it together.

It doesn't mean I don't want him or that he can't be a positive piece, but the team isn't going to win a lot when Melo has the ball in his hands all the time because he isn't the type of player to distribute.

the ratio of his usage rate (USG) and the assist rate (AST) supports this argument.

george and lebron is close to 1:1 while melo's is consistently 2:1 or greater

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Shooting percentage of Melo's teammates versus Bron and KD teammates doesn't support this argument...All things are not equal...

Melo's teammates hit around .425% of shots from his passes, while the league average FG% is closer to .445. That translates only to about 0.1 assists per game - not enough to even warrant discussion.

More specifically, the Heat shoots 51% as a team and OKC shoots 47% as a team..I didn't back out Bron and KD's numbers but I think the percentages would be a touch lower..Still significantly higher than the Knicks..

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

y2zipper wrote:The standings stuff is a team issue, and the Knicks have lots of problems that have nothing to do with Melo, like Amar'e injuries, Felton and JR regressing into totally worthless players and being cap-strapped for the next year and a half.

That said, Melo isn't a player you can "build around" because he doesn't facilitate or distribute. He doesn't distribute because he doesn't draw double-teams, and he doesn't draw double-teams because he doesn't drive to the hoop consistently enough for assist opportunities. Players are considered "1's" are able to facilitate in some capacity, even if it's to the tune of 5-7 assists per game.

LeBron and Durant drive to the hoop about 6 times a game and shoot close to 60% on drives. Carmelo only drives to the hoop about twice a game and shoots 48% on his drives. That's where the significant difference in their games lies.

30/10 basketball is all good and everything, but 30/10 on 55%-60% driving to the hoop and adding 5-7 assists is different than 30/10 on catch-and-shoot plays and pull-up jumpers from the mid-range at 45% shooting are different things. The reason he play so well on the Olympic teams is because those teams are filled with the above-mentioned consistent penetration guys and those guys maximize what Melo can do. The question we should be asking is if we can get somebody like that and who that guy is. That's why Rondo is discussed so much.

Huh? Yes he does...

yea.. more evidence that this board is littered with donkees who dont even watch the games but are free to spout garbage as if they know what they are talking out. Melo is constantly doubled. If you actually counted the # of times he passes out of it you would be shocked.

I watch plenty of games, thank you very much. He isn't doubled as much as you think and when he is, he doesn't pass out of it as much as you think he does. It's especially true when you watch him play Indiana and other elite defenses that don't double the post.

He takes too many mid-range shots and pull-up jumpers, and his game is not conducive to creating open shots for teammates the same way that LeBron's and Durant's are. Otherwise, he'd average more assists. Assist Opportunities, the number of passes thrown and secondary assists are all actually tracked, and league-wide you get an assist about half the time you create an opportunity for an assist. Melo throws about the same number of passes as Kevin Durant and LeBron James do, but they average about twice as many assist opportunities. It means that the passes that Melo throws aren't as good as the passes that LeBron and Durant throw. People like the perpetuate the myth that there's some disparity in how well Melo's supporting cast shoots, but the numbers simply don't show any significant difference anywhere where a player sets up a ton of assist opportunities but doesn't get a big assist number to go with it. I agree that the Knicks don't have much else in the way of scoring options, but that doesn't change the fact that Melo doesn't pass enough. He's inferior in the passing categories to the other guys mentioned and it's why elite point guards that can take the ball out of his hands are always discussed as necessary when putting a team with Melo on it together.

It doesn't mean I don't want him or that he can't be a positive piece, but the team isn't going to win a lot when Melo has the ball in his hands all the time because he isn't the type of player to distribute.

the ratio of his usage rate (USG) and the assist rate (AST) supports this argument.

george and lebron is close to 1:1 while melo's is consistently 2:1 or greater

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Shooting percentage of Melo's teammates versus Bron and KD teammates doesn't support this argument...All things are not equal...

Melo's teammates hit around .425% of shots from his passes, while the league average FG% is closer to .445. That translates only to about 0.1 assists per game - not enough to even warrant discussion.

More specifically, the Heat shoots 51% as a team and OKC shoots 47% as a team..I didn't back out Bron and KD's numbers but I think the percentages would be a touch lower..Still significantly higher than the Knicks..

Well, you do have to look at the percentages of the teammates, not the total team, but fair enough. It could in this case be more like 0.2 or 0.3 assists a game. Still not enough to merit discussion.

It maybe more when you consider 5 man lineups. Martin, STAT,Chandler, and THJ are the teammates who carry the FG%. 3 of those players are in and out of the lineup with limited ways to create opportunities for assist and Melo and THJ hardly have any minutes together.

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

Red1976 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Red1976 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:tkf... this team would be more than decent if it had a true pg, a true 2-way pg that got any kinda burn. carmelo is not the pg and does not have the ball in his hands for most of the offensive shotclock. this is why rasheed and kidd were important last year they knew how to pass. Carmelo is passing the ball well (especially recently). you cannot take credit away from carmelo because kidd and rasheed were available to show the other players how it's done. carmelo cannot do it all... but you are making it seem like he cannot be the difference between winning and losing.

very simple question for you... do you really think that without carmelo the team of last year would have won more games?? i mean come on.

cartman, this team would be better with a SF who can actually play SF, defend, pass and score efficiently....

very simple question for you... do you really think that without carmelo the team of last year would have won more games?? i mean come on.

did I miss a parade or something? you guys keep refering to last year as if that was a championship team.. I don't care if last years team won 24 games.. actually I wish we did.. because we owned our own pick this past draft...

let me ask you this.. lets say without carmelo the team would have won 44 games instead of 54? so what? still not a contender.. still not a championship quality team...

what are your expectations? I want sustained excellence....I don't think you will get that with carmelo on this team..

and thanks for answering my question directly. it was a very simple question which you failed to answer.

He never answer on topic ... Always twisting things to make Melo a bad guy ...

Didn't he just suggest it would be 44 wins?

Thank you TKF bodyguard ! I was actually referring to my own posts with him

I guess that it was not obvious from my post but why do you always need to come to his rescue ?
The guy is unable to give any credit to Melo for anything, this is my point ... In life it is never good to stand only in the extremes ... Some balance is welcome

My only question was "are you at least acknowledging that Melo had a good game ?" Even if you don't like the player he still had an efficient game in a WIN (62 points, 13 rebounds, more than 50% of FG, 100% FT). Is is that difficult to admit, is there any rationale for it ? He never answered to this simple question .. why ? Admitting that Melo had a good game won't break the balance in the force ... Lol. Or the reasons are not rationale and only personal ..

I'm baiting no one ... Just pointing why it is difficult to debate with him when the guy is so thick headed with any Melo related topics

actually realistic.. now let me ask you a question..

are the melo led knicks a good team right now?

just answer that question.. don't want to hear about amare, felton, etc...

I like when u just talk ball...Felton Chandler and JR are averaging 12 less points per game this year.That's a lot of wins...You are asking a question about the team and u don't want any comments regarding the players that make up the team??..By the way Melo led Knicks did OK last year too, Melo playing the best ball of his career..

Knick's win
Melo gets majority of the credit for it
Including "HOCKEY ASSIST", when the rest of the league calls it BALL MOVEMENT and hitting the open man but Melo MUST get credit for a number that has no association with him

Melo loses but puts up points he doesn't deserve the blame
Melo's team mates don't produce, deflect gets pushed right to his team mates

How could you ever lose in your arguments?

How many times has Melo shot 30 to 40 shots PLUS, how many were poor shots?
How many times is the ball in Melo's hands?
Melo shoots ALL THE FT's attempts for technical fouls to boost up his stats..

Lets me ask you this, who did Lin with on his streak here?
What his talent lower or higher than the players Melo have now?

No, I don't think Lin could lead us to the the playoffs either but he deserves the credit when he in fact LEAD THE TEAM when Melo was unable to do so with the same players
The team was able to play off his ability to penetrate consistently, we played much better DEFENSE, we got easy transition points, we played TEAM BALL, and he was flirting with triple double numbers when the he was playing as the #1

Instead, Holfresh would rather blast's Lin's 24m for 3 years but credit Melo for his numbers and justify paying him 3x the amount PER YEAR that Lin gets on a MAX YEAR DEAL
Tyson Chandler looked like quite an offensive player with Lin and was highly motivated to play
Novak looked like a steal
Jeffries looked like a solid 2 way player

Fields looked like a solid NBA player with Lin and with Gallo/Wilson Chandler but trash with Melo, like Novak did for the most part
Why is that? Is it coincidence? I don't care what they are NOT doing or doing in Toronto, I am talking about why they did well in NYK with Lin vs without and with Melo and Woodson
If they sucked so much should Lin and pre Melo Knick's were able to play in a DIFFERENT system?

Our style of play is CATERED to Melo, that is what he wanted, that is what he complained about when Lin was here
Now that we have been unproductive in the post season last year (we were blown out every game last year in the playoffs and watch us play this year)
Paul George was defending him 1v1, just like he defended Lebron 1v1
Hibbert was protecting the rim but he did the same vs The Heat....

You say we lack talent, I agree

BUT

I said we greatly overpayed for the trade for a WANT, not a NEED, while you said we just loss "ROLE PLAYERS"
"Getting role players is easy after you get an ALL STAR"
We havent....

Well, we never get the talent needed and ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS and POSTS contradict each other

I am not saying it is Melo's fault, I am saying he isn't the part of the solution
However, IF he wants to stay in NYK to contend, he will have to make sacrifices both on and off the court

It doesn't matter if he drops 100 pts, what we do in the playoffs vs top tier teams, when the game changes, in a 7 game series....

Kobe was unable to lead the team by himself, he had SHAQ in his prime and then he needed Pau, Bynum, Odom, Ariza, and a system that complimented the team, not just him
But we unable to add that type of talent with the way the CBA is constructed now, not if he opts out this summer

My point is you don't build around 1 player, you build around a core
We are unable to have a core till 2015 and still then, we need to carefully use our payroll till then
IF MELO OPTS out this summer for an extension we would be unable to have a core, and you will continue you deflect blame

Why has nobody addressed any of these well thought out points by RonRon?. Anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Frye.....

azamatbagatov wrote:

RonRon wrote:Knick's win
Melo gets majority of the credit for it
Including "HOCKEY ASSIST", when the rest of the league calls it BALL MOVEMENT and hitting the open man but Melo MUST get credit for a number that has no association with him

Melo loses but puts up points he doesn't deserve the blame
Melo's team mates don't produce, deflect gets pushed right to his team mates

How could you ever lose in your arguments?

How many times has Melo shot 30 to 40 shots PLUS, how many were poor shots?
How many times is the ball in Melo's hands?
Melo shoots ALL THE FT's attempts for technical fouls to boost up his stats..

Lets me ask you this, who did Lin with on his streak here?
What his talent lower or higher than the players Melo have now?

No, I don't think Lin could lead us to the the playoffs either but he deserves the credit when he in fact LEAD THE TEAM when Melo was unable to do so with the same players
The team was able to play off his ability to penetrate consistently, we played much better DEFENSE, we got easy transition points, we played TEAM BALL, and he was flirting with triple double numbers when the he was playing as the #1

Instead, Holfresh would rather blast's Lin's 24m for 3 years but credit Melo for his numbers and justify paying him 3x the amount PER YEAR that Lin gets on a MAX YEAR DEAL
Tyson Chandler looked like quite an offensive player with Lin and was highly motivated to play
Novak looked like a steal
Jeffries looked like a solid 2 way player

Fields looked like a solid NBA player with Lin and with Gallo/Wilson Chandler but trash with Melo, like Novak did for the most part
Why is that? Is it coincidence? I don't care what they are NOT doing or doing in Toronto, I am talking about why they did well in NYK with Lin vs without and with Melo and Woodson
If they sucked so much should Lin and pre Melo Knick's were able to play in a DIFFERENT system?

Our style of play is CATERED to Melo, that is what he wanted, that is what he complained about when Lin was here
Now that we have been unproductive in the post season last year (we were blown out every game last year in the playoffs and watch us play this year)
Paul George was defending him 1v1, just like he defended Lebron 1v1
Hibbert was protecting the rim but he did the same vs The Heat....

You say we lack talent, I agree

BUT

I said we greatly overpayed for the trade for a WANT, not a NEED, while you said we just loss "ROLE PLAYERS"
"Getting role players is easy after you get an ALL STAR"
We havent....

Well, we never get the talent needed and ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS and POSTS contradict each other

I am not saying it is Melo's fault, I am saying he isn't the part of the solution
However, IF he wants to stay in NYK to contend, he will have to make sacrifices both on and off the court

It doesn't matter if he drops 100 pts, what we do in the playoffs vs top tier teams, when the game changes, in a 7 game series....

Kobe was unable to lead the team by himself, he had SHAQ in his prime and then he needed Pau, Bynum, Odom, Ariza, and a system that complimented the team, not just him
But we unable to add that type of talent with the way the CBA is constructed now, not if he opts out this summer

My point is you don't build around 1 player, you build around a core
We are unable to have a core till 2015 and still then, we need to carefully use our payroll till then
IF MELO OPTS out this summer for an extension we would be unable to have a core, and you will continue you deflect blame

Why has nobody addressed any of these well thought out points by RonRon?. Anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Frye.....

RonRon wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

RonRon wrote:Knick's win
Melo gets majority of the credit for it
Including "HOCKEY ASSIST", when the rest of the league calls it BALL MOVEMENT and hitting the open man but Melo MUST get credit for a number that has no association with him

Melo loses but puts up points he doesn't deserve the blame
Melo's team mates don't produce, deflect gets pushed right to his team mates

How could you ever lose in your arguments?

How many times has Melo shot 30 to 40 shots PLUS, how many were poor shots?
How many times is the ball in Melo's hands?
Melo shoots ALL THE FT's attempts for technical fouls to boost up his stats..

Lets me ask you this, who did Lin with on his streak here?
What his talent lower or higher than the players Melo have now?

No, I don't think Lin could lead us to the the playoffs either but he deserves the credit when he in fact LEAD THE TEAM when Melo was unable to do so with the same players
The team was able to play off his ability to penetrate consistently, we played much better DEFENSE, we got easy transition points, we played TEAM BALL, and he was flirting with triple double numbers when the he was playing as the #1

Instead, Holfresh would rather blast's Lin's 24m for 3 years but credit Melo for his numbers and justify paying him 3x the amount PER YEAR that Lin gets on a MAX YEAR DEAL
Tyson Chandler looked like quite an offensive player with Lin and was highly motivated to play
Novak looked like a steal
Jeffries looked like a solid 2 way player

Fields looked like a solid NBA player with Lin and with Gallo/Wilson Chandler but trash with Melo, like Novak did for the most part
Why is that? Is it coincidence? I don't care what they are NOT doing or doing in Toronto, I am talking about why they did well in NYK with Lin vs without and with Melo and Woodson
If they sucked so much should Lin and pre Melo Knick's were able to play in a DIFFERENT system?

Our style of play is CATERED to Melo, that is what he wanted, that is what he complained about when Lin was here
Now that we have been unproductive in the post season last year (we were blown out every game last year in the playoffs and watch us play this year)
Paul George was defending him 1v1, just like he defended Lebron 1v1
Hibbert was protecting the rim but he did the same vs The Heat....

You say we lack talent, I agree

BUT

I said we greatly overpayed for the trade for a WANT, not a NEED, while you said we just loss "ROLE PLAYERS"
"Getting role players is easy after you get an ALL STAR"
We havent....

Well, we never get the talent needed and ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS and POSTS contradict each other

I am not saying it is Melo's fault, I am saying he isn't the part of the solution
However, IF he wants to stay in NYK to contend, he will have to make sacrifices both on and off the court

It doesn't matter if he drops 100 pts, what we do in the playoffs vs top tier teams, when the game changes, in a 7 game series....

Kobe was unable to lead the team by himself, he had SHAQ in his prime and then he needed Pau, Bynum, Odom, Ariza, and a system that complimented the team, not just him
But we unable to add that type of talent with the way the CBA is constructed now, not if he opts out this summer

My point is you don't build around 1 player, you build around a core
We are unable to have a core till 2015 and still then, we need to carefully use our payroll till then
IF MELO OPTS out this summer for an extension we would be unable to have a core, and you will continue you deflect blame

Why has nobody addressed any of these well thought out points by RonRon?. Anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Frye.....

He seems to leave out the part where Fields and Novak are still trash without Melo on their team.

The whole point is Lin, even the players we had prior to the deal with Melo, and most importantly a system that allows other players to be successful
Lin won with trash, while he was able to get the best of of them, he deserves credit for that
Melo doesn't make players around him better, while Woodson's system is caters to flourish for Melo

To answer Dk's question about how to build a team WITHOUT Melo

1- collect as many assets, expirings, trade our current players if we can build their value up, young talent, and add a completely different coaching staff that will develop a CORRECT way of playing basketball

2- Use the roster spots this summer while using our MLE and even vet min to address some of our holes and value development of players

3- USE cap space wisely in 2015, forming a core to build around without overpaying for talent, instead look for steals that would use NYK as a place to prove their value in the league

MDA's system is designed for Lin to take a lot of shots an flourish, U didn't mind that...We would have grossly over payed for Lin had we matched that contract, you don't mind that...

We went 13-0 for a stretch last last to debunk the we can only win with Lin going 8-1...U might have missed that...

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

RonRon wrote:Knick's win
Melo gets majority of the credit for it
Including "HOCKEY ASSIST", when the rest of the league calls it BALL MOVEMENT and hitting the open man but Melo MUST get credit for a number that has no association with him

Melo loses but puts up points he doesn't deserve the blame
Melo's team mates don't produce, deflect gets pushed right to his team mates

How could you ever lose in your arguments?

How many times has Melo shot 30 to 40 shots PLUS, how many were poor shots?
How many times is the ball in Melo's hands?
Melo shoots ALL THE FT's attempts for technical fouls to boost up his stats..

Lets me ask you this, who did Lin with on his streak here?
What his talent lower or higher than the players Melo have now?

No, I don't think Lin could lead us to the the playoffs either but he deserves the credit when he in fact LEAD THE TEAM when Melo was unable to do so with the same players
The team was able to play off his ability to penetrate consistently, we played much better DEFENSE, we got easy transition points, we played TEAM BALL, and he was flirting with triple double numbers when the he was playing as the #1

Instead, Holfresh would rather blast's Lin's 24m for 3 years but credit Melo for his numbers and justify paying him 3x the amount PER YEAR that Lin gets on a MAX YEAR DEAL
Tyson Chandler looked like quite an offensive player with Lin and was highly motivated to play
Novak looked like a steal
Jeffries looked like a solid 2 way player

Fields looked like a solid NBA player with Lin and with Gallo/Wilson Chandler but trash with Melo, like Novak did for the most part
Why is that? Is it coincidence? I don't care what they are NOT doing or doing in Toronto, I am talking about why they did well in NYK with Lin vs without and with Melo and Woodson
If they sucked so much should Lin and pre Melo Knick's were able to play in a DIFFERENT system?

Our style of play is CATERED to Melo, that is what he wanted, that is what he complained about when Lin was here
Now that we have been unproductive in the post season last year (we were blown out every game last year in the playoffs and watch us play this year)
Paul George was defending him 1v1, just like he defended Lebron 1v1
Hibbert was protecting the rim but he did the same vs The Heat....

You say we lack talent, I agree

BUT

I said we greatly overpayed for the trade for a WANT, not a NEED, while you said we just loss "ROLE PLAYERS"
"Getting role players is easy after you get an ALL STAR"
We havent....

Well, we never get the talent needed and ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS and POSTS contradict each other

I am not saying it is Melo's fault, I am saying he isn't the part of the solution
However, IF he wants to stay in NYK to contend, he will have to make sacrifices both on and off the court

It doesn't matter if he drops 100 pts, what we do in the playoffs vs top tier teams, when the game changes, in a 7 game series....

Kobe was unable to lead the team by himself, he had SHAQ in his prime and then he needed Pau, Bynum, Odom, Ariza, and a system that complimented the team, not just him
But we unable to add that type of talent with the way the CBA is constructed now, not if he opts out this summer

My point is you don't build around 1 player, you build around a core
We are unable to have a core till 2015 and still then, we need to carefully use our payroll till then
IF MELO OPTS out this summer for an extension we would be unable to have a core, and you will continue you deflect blame

Why has nobody addressed any of these well thought out points by RonRon?. Anyone, Bueller, Bueller, Frye.....

He seems to leave out the part where Fields and Novak are still trash without Melo on their team.

The whole point is Lin, even the players we had prior to the deal with Melo, and most importantly a system that allows other players to be successful
Lin won with trash, while he was able to get the best of of them, he deserves credit for that
Melo doesn't make players around him better, while Woodson's system is caters to flourish for Melo

To answer Dk's question about how to build a team WITHOUT Melo

1- collect as many assets, expirings, trade our current players if we can build their value up, young talent, and add a completely different coaching staff that will develop a CORRECT way of playing basketball

2- Use the roster spots this summer while using our MLE and even vet min to address some of our holes and value development of players

3- USE cap space wisely in 2015, forming a core to build around without overpaying for talent, instead look for steals that would use NYK as a place to prove their value in the league

MDA's system is designed for Lin to take a lot of shots an flourish, U didn't mind that...We would have grossly over payed for Lin had we matched that contract, you don't mind that...

We went 13-0 for a stretch last last to debunk the we can only win with Lin going 8-1...U might have missed that...

What happened in the playoffs?
Melo had the opportunity to carry to load and he was unable to make players around him better, while playing and ISO system for him to deliver
We reverted from MOVING the ball and moving without the ball, while we the team stood around, and was unable to get in the paint vs a top defensive team

I am not saying Lin could lead us alone, I am saying he could have been a piece that we could have used moving forward because of his ability to penetrate and facilitate

First things first, Did you want the Knicks to overpay for Lin???

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Is that now the 5th question that now that I have asked you that u never responded to???

If the Knicks are worth well over a billion and it's not like we were going to have cap space, why should I care if Dolan's paying $25 mil over 3 years? Why would I care if that microscopic amount is distributed unevenly among the years either?

You can't moan about Dolan paying Melo 20 mil and say its ok to pay Lin 15...You can't stand on your soapbox and spew lengthy orations about being fiscal, not overpaying, signing value then say Dolan screwed up not resigning Lin, who I think by the way has his fingerprints on those Harden comments from Parsons...