Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for his antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORITISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

There's nothing wrong with honesty here. I've never been a fan of the way Melo and JR play and it takes a lot of extra effort to get myself to root for them. If JR keeps anything close to this up, he will completely win me over. I still wish Melo would take better shots. I think he'd be much better taking 16 high quality shots instead of the 21 shots a game he does take. But I can acknowledge that he does have a net positive impact on the team.

I so disagree with you bro...I do admit Melo takes some horrendous shots at times...But u can't put a number on what he should take...It's all part of the flow of the offense and game...If he takes 16 shots it does mean they will be high quality...I'm more concern with him taking shots within the flow of what the team is doing...He is our number one target, who is to say what he will need to take on a given night, given the game situation...It's not something that can be quantified...People rode Felton for taking 23 shots a few games ago...A few were forced yes but most was within the flow of the offense...Melo was being doubled and some one had to step up..We won..Yet complaints...Flow of the game dictates how many shots your primary offensive player takes or a secondary guy...How do you come up with 16 good, 21 bad for a guy like Melo...16 good, 21 bad for Kobe...16 good, 21 bad for LeBron...How do u know??

I'm come up with 16 because he's taking 21 and about 5 per game are really bad shots. Of course, that does not mean he will take precisely 16 shots in every game though.

My point is, it's not the number that is critical but the disruption of flow of the offense...

3G4G wrote:

TeamBall wrote:What irritates me is that sometimes it seems like when Melo goes one on one, that leads to Felton going one on one, which leads to JR going one on one and Kidd is usually the one that has to settle the offense down. I dont get how they can keep going away from the ball movement and cuts.

Leadership? Is that what you're referring to? Melo claimed during the summer he's the leader so follow the leader I guess.

TeamBall wrote:

3G4G wrote:

TeamBall wrote:What irritates me is that sometimes it seems like when Melo goes one on one, that leads to Felton going one on one, which leads to JR going one on one and Kidd is usually the one that has to settle the offense down. I dont get how they can keep going away from the ball movement and cuts.

Leadership? Is that what you're referring to? Melo claimed during the summer he's the leader so follow the leader I guess.

That was in response to Bonn1997's post about Melo's fgs. Did he claim he was the leader? I really hope he didnt cause hes not. Best player? Yes. Leader? Not quite.

Yes he did while throwing a couple teammates under the bus in the process. Maybe not intentionally but he did in expressing himself.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19727442/carmelo-anthony-blames-linsanity-for-critics-calling-him-selfish

And yet when asked by USA Today at the London Olympics this week about the age-old charge that he is a "selfish" player, Anthony asserted that the talk only started after the meteoiric rise of Jeremy Lin.

"Let's be frank about it," he said. "When it comes to the Knicks, we're talking about one particular point in time. We're talking about the whole 'Linsanity' thing. That's when it started. That's when it started to escalate as far as people saying I was selfish."

"Lin came and we started winning games and then we started losing games, and they could only point to one thing, which is me, the leader of the team," Anthony said. "They're not going to point to Amar'e. They're not going to point to (guard) Iman Shumpert. They're going to point to me. I accept that. It doesn't bother me."

Let's go back a couple yrs prior to the above statement

ROTFLOL and I know the past is the past but we don't want the past to repeat itself Yao Ming?

Listening to Billups here below sounds very much like Kidd when he's speaking on Carmelo's Way this year YIKES!

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_13598068

Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony has displayed great leadership skills in training camp.

"Melo's really taken a big piece of leadership role on the team," Chauncey Billups told the Denver Post.

"Guys are looking up to him. Melo always, since I've been here, he's been our best practice player. He goes hard. When you've got your best player going extremely hard like that and playing and competing every single practice, it makes everyone else around him say, 'He's doing it, I better do it.' He's been great."

Anthony claims that nothing he's done differently this preseason was calculated.

"Nah, it's just natural," Anthony said. "Being a leader isn't something that you go home and go, 'Man, I'm going to be a leader today.' It was always instilled in me. But I'm a leader in my own way. I come in, I play hard. It just so happens it's coming out more.

"Guys are starting to ask me questions now. I feel like a veteran now. When you start getting that, your confidence goes up and your leadership just grows even more."

A year later he shows leadership to his teammates by requesting to be traded to our team(prior to and in season derail mode), miserable the whole while up to being traded and supposedly the impending CBA had nothing to do with this leadership he was displaying "by way of example" at the time.

I just found these articles using the Dewey Decimal system card cataloged away.

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:As I've said early on in this thread...

The team is managing to win "IN SPITE OF MELO'S PRODUCTION" and his impact is being overblown. While I questioned if the pieces here would come together and thus far have been proven wrong...it's all good....I have been correct in that Melo isn't necessarily a player who makes people around him better, it's highly debatable if it's the other way around. I said this even when Amar'e was the main man here. These guys and their talents are more self contained than anything else.

In spite of....GTFOH....Did you not see how the Spurs game-planned to take Melo ut of the game? Did you not see them sending two guys his way and semi-zoning up on the opposite side? Even Sean Elliot, the Spurs color commentator, said as much....

There were moments and have been moments in all the games we've played where he's seen a couple guys come at him. He's primarily guarded by the other team's best defender with decisions when to double him if at all. I didn't see the first half of last night's game but saw the second half and sorry he was not in constant double cover 2 coverage....not even close.

There's also this part of the game(all 6 we've played) you have to watch and it's called what the team does when he's not even on the floor.

Melo was 1 of only 3 players with a negative +/- the rest were all positive last night

We've also seen Felton and J.R. the last few games in particular make individual plays(several of them) by themselves or involving others not named Melo

Kidd is knocking down 3's not because of Melo, it's because of our spread pick and roll offense with guys moving the ball finding the open man

Listen, nobody is saying that Melo has a hand in every single point we score and every single defensive stop we make. Bottom line, he is the leading scorer and rebounder on the team with the best record in the NBA at this point. If this continues into the the second half of the season, then the MVP talks will be legit. Doesn't mean he's going to win it, but he will definitely be in the discussion.

BTW, its hard to make an argument when you only watch part of a game.

Melo was more than likely going to be the Leading scorer and Top rebounder or near Top rebounder on this team. Scoring by default duh and he's playing the 4 position.

As far as watching half the game it was the only game this season where I've watched half, meanwhile I've seen all of the rest. Sorry Melo is not in some constant double team scheme every game by opposing teams defenses. He is not greatly impacting the play of any player on this team. Not even close. Like I said defenses do pay attention to where he is and what he's doing but no more so than other other prolific offensive scorers.

This is once again another attempt to ascribe more than necessary credit to Melo, he doesn't deserve.

Melo is moving the ball better compared to yrs past, nevertheless he has too many moments where he ball stops or he stagnates the offense trying to force things. I'm also not a fan of giving too much credit to players, not just Melo but anyone who should be doing things by nature to help a TEAM win.

It's like giving credit to a released individual after criminal activity in a community.... who no longer robs small businesses anymore but is pick pocketing stray pedestrians every once in a while.

Sorry I'm not buying what's attempted to be sold here.

Melo was more than likely going to be the Leading scorer and Top rebounder or near Top rebounder on this team. Scoring by default duh and he's playing the 4 position.

What does scoring by default mean? Melo has always been an elite scorer and would be the leading scorer on more than 3/4's of the teams in this league regardless of who is teammates are. Scoring by default? You make it seem like Melo is Tony Campbell on the TWolves when he went from the the end of the Lakers bench, to an elite scorer on a garbage team. The 4 position does help the rebounds, but is he supposed to be penalized for that? Either way, somebody has to go get the ball off the glass, and up until a game ago, he was doing the best job on the team.

As far as watching half the game it was the only game this season where I've watched half, meanwhile I've seen all of the rest. Sorry Melo is not in some constant double team scheme every game by opposing teams defenses. He is not greatly impacting the play of any player on this team. Not even close. Like I said defenses do pay attention to where he is and what he's doing but no more so than other other prolific offensive scorers.

If you reread my original response, it was specifically about the SPURS GAME. In that particular game, the Spurs defense was clearly designed to take the ball out of his hands. And yes he did impact the play of the team during the Spurs game. He had quite a few Hockey Assists in that game particularly down the stretch when we pulled away. The Smith 3 comes to mind immediately

Melo is moving the ball better compared to yrs past, nevertheless he has too many moments where he ball stops or he stagnates the offense trying to force things. I'm also not a fan of giving too much credit to players, not just Melo but anyone who should be doing things by nature to help a TEAM win.

Show me a prolific scorer who doesn't stop the ball or stagnate the offense from time to time? It's what scorer's do. From MJ, to Nique, to Kobe, to Aquirre, to Pierce, and even the new darling, Harden. They all hold/held the ball too long at times, they all force things at times, etc. Its pretty obvious that your problem with Melo is way beyond him just stagnating the offense.

Sorry I'm not buying what's attempted to be sold here.

Only thing that's being sold here is Knick fans being excited about the great start to the season, and big wins over the Heat and the Spurs. Fans are excited that Melo is playing good ball and we are playing defense the reminds us of the gritty Knicks of the 90's. Whats wrong with Fans being excited about their team? What do you and others always feel a need to police the excitement? We haven't played this well in a very long time. The fact that you aint buying the excitement (yes, I know small sample size) makes some question whether you are a fan of the Knicks at all.

3G4G wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

3G4G wrote:

TeamBall wrote:What irritates me is that sometimes it seems like when Melo goes one on one, that leads to Felton going one on one, which leads to JR going one on one and Kidd is usually the one that has to settle the offense down. I dont get how they can keep going away from the ball movement and cuts.

Leadership? Is that what you're referring to? Melo claimed during the summer he's the leader so follow the leader I guess.

That was in response to Bonn1997's post about Melo's fgs. Did he claim he was the leader? I really hope he didnt cause hes not. Best player? Yes. Leader? Not quite.

Yes he did while throwing a couple teammates under the bus in the process. Maybe not intentionally but he did in expressing himself.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19727442/carmelo-anthony-blames-linsanity-for-critics-calling-him-selfish

And yet when asked by USA Today at the London Olympics this week about the age-old charge that he is a "selfish" player, Anthony asserted that the talk only started after the meteoiric rise of Jeremy Lin.

"Let's be frank about it," he said. "When it comes to the Knicks, we're talking about one particular point in time. We're talking about the whole 'Linsanity' thing. That's when it started. That's when it started to escalate as far as people saying I was selfish."

"Lin came and we started winning games and then we started losing games, and they could only point to one thing, which is me, the leader of the team," Anthony said. "They're not going to point to Amar'e. They're not going to point to (guard) Iman Shumpert. They're going to point to me. I accept that. It doesn't bother me."

Let's go back a couple yrs prior to the above statement

ROTFLOL and I know the past is the past but we don't want the past to repeat itself Yao Ming?

Listening to Billups here below sounds very much like Kidd when he's speaking on Carmelo's Way this year YIKES!

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_13598068

Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony has displayed great leadership skills in training camp.

"Melo's really taken a big piece of leadership role on the team," Chauncey Billups told the Denver Post.

"Guys are looking up to him. Melo always, since I've been here, he's been our best practice player. He goes hard. When you've got your best player going extremely hard like that and playing and competing every single practice, it makes everyone else around him say, 'He's doing it, I better do it.' He's been great."

Anthony claims that nothing he's done differently this preseason was calculated.

"Nah, it's just natural," Anthony said. "Being a leader isn't something that you go home and go, 'Man, I'm going to be a leader today.' It was always instilled in me. But I'm a leader in my own way. I come in, I play hard. It just so happens it's coming out more.

"Guys are starting to ask me questions now. I feel like a veteran now. When you start getting that, your confidence goes up and your leadership just grows even more."

A year later he shows leadership to his teammates by requesting to be traded to our team(prior to and in season derail mode), miserable the whole while up to being traded and supposedly the impending CBA had nothing to do with this leadership he was displaying "by way of example" at the time.

I just found these articles using the Dewey Decimal system card cataloged away.

Dude, its 2012...how about you join us. Holding grudges isn't healthy.

CrushAlot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORiTISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

I am not sure that I have seen the pecking order that you reference but I wonder why Camby isn't getting minutes. When Wallace was getting into condition I seem to remember Woodson speaking about him a lot. Not hearing anything about Camby or why he isn't playing is frustrating. Camby had a tough time getting on the court his first go round with the Knicks.

I forgot to add besides Shump attempting to develop corny pop culture personality off the court I do want him to get back healthy A.S.A.P. so I can see him play on the court. If he's shown any maturation from last season, then I have no doubts he'll be a pleasure to watch.

Honest Question...

If Camby could hit the 3 ball do you think he's on the court?

Next Honest Question.....

Do you think Camby is so fragile it takes 2mos to recover from a strained calf injury?

Next Honest Question

We traded 2 2nd round picks/Jorts/Jordan/Douglas(paying Douglas salary in Houston/Tax Hit on Camby's salary/$10mil guaranteed of a $13.2mil deal to Cam and he hasn't even played meaningful minutes thus far but Kurt Thomas continues to get his number called before him and then when you factor Prigs is getting spot minutes at backup point can you understand why fans lament the Lin debacle even though Lin isn't tearing up the league but getting minutes and slowly developing?

The Knicks are committed to this team making a run now so I don't have an issue with second round picks being traded. While I liked Jorts, Jorts, Douglas and Jordan were not prizes. Under the old cba the Knicks might have picked Jorts or Jordan back up after they were waived. I also think that the Knicks were very resourceful with their scouts bringing in White, Prigs and Cope. Guys under the radar that are as good or better than most teams second round picks. As far as CAmby is concerned I was just wondering if you thought he was out of favor with Woodson. The Knicks didn't get Camby to shoot threes.

While I don't disagree with you we made moves to go all in now(I do disagree when it eliminates flexibility), you do realize when you don't play the player you gave up assets to go all in now, it makes those assets a waste? Here's another thing....we could have traded Douglas/Jorts/2 2nd round picks at the deadline for a win now move and be no further behind than we are now. Camby hasn't impacted our win loss column 1 iota. Had we kept Jorts and Dougie I don't think we'd be .500 this is what's almost implied by stating we gave them up for a win now move. This is what some of us who like to keep our options open refer to. It's shortsighted to think all moves have to be made in an instant moment in time. It can be progressive with patience arriving you to the same end.

Touching on Camby shooting 3's obviously I'm being facetious. I know Camby has never been a player to shoot 3s in his career as a staple. We brought him in for defense/rebounding, well we're one of the worst rebounding teams in the league yet Sheed gets minutes not to rebound but to help stretch the floor and shoot 3s. So I believe if Cam was known to hit 3s on top of his other traits he'd be getting minutes now. I do not believe he's injured or more out of shape than Sheed or Kurt Thomas. Camby can also hit the midrange jumper with respect especially at the elbow/ftl. Kurt doesn't really get minutes either when looked at closely.

So unlike claiming MVPs after 4gms I'm looking at things we're currently discussing and seeing it becoming a problem. After 7gms here's what's concerning me again

Woody has a PO or short rotation a la Pringles...

In 7gms particularly the last 3 he's settling on an 8man rotation and those players are

Felton
Kidd
Brewer
Melo
Chandler
Sheed
Novak
Smith

The first 3-4gms Prigs was getting meaningful minutes, not so much anymore. So for all the Prig love as we can see he's being slowly squeezed out. Novak and Sheed average pretty much 20/15min respectively...with Sheed's minutes increasing and Novak's decreasing. When you think about the return of Shump and Amar'e these players will be mere footnotes at best....

Novak
Prigs
Camby
Thomas
Copeland
White

Woody's final rotation will be....

Felton
Kidd
Brewer
Melo
Chandler
Smith
Shump(return from major injury)
Amar'e(return from major injury)
Sheed(maybe depending on Amar'e and how he fits)

This my friend will not be sustainable. Our early record does not dictate what I perceive won't work long term. We are not built for long term success. Woody either needs to develop more trust in his players or we need to make trades for players he can trust if at all possible. Look at all that Tax we have sitting on the bench in Novak/Camby/Prigs. Show me exactly how they would fit into what Woody does meaningfully? Oh and we're too 3 ball top heavy.

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

holfresh wrote:Man...Just a question...3G amd tkf...Are u guys Knick fans or still Knicks fans...I ask because the play thus far of this team is what we have been looking for about 10 years now...I have no idea if this continues...But looking at coaching and the team itself, they seem to be on the verge of something...We went toe to toe with some of the NBA's best and hung in there and stumbled a little...Isn't that what u want as a fan in November..Who cares how we got here..We are here...There is no true right path...No true right players to make up a winning team...Sometimes it just happens...This team looks close...Aren't you in the least bit happy about that??...

I'm not gonna lie the team is difficult to root for with certain players on it but I can be won over. Major doubts remain for me. I do not like our overall chucking style of play even though we are moving the ball. I would like to see us shoot 20 3's/gm as an average. We're playing to look for the 3 or pull up out of PNR or Lob out of PNR.

Kidd has surprised me a lot. I even give credit to Sheed for the long layoff and yet he looks like he hasn't lost a whole lot. Didn't care for his antics and carrying on yesterday. I do feel the age factors in for sustained levels of high play as the season progresses. I guess you can't fault the player and more so the acquisition in general. I don't see this roster staying together for a long time. I see constant changing parts those of which won't provide any major impact on making us become a force for yrs to come.

There are players on this team who I don't dislike but never liked their style of play. Such as Brewer and Chandler.

Smith has improved along with Melo in terms of team play although I dislike them as players/game/individuals. I don't think they have high character at all.

I think Woodson is somewhat of a parody of himself, I think he tries too hard to get his George Micheal on. I do like the fact he's made this team play defense and he will not play you unless you're playing it(giving real effort) but I also feel he has a PECKING ORDER/FAVORITISM style to his coaching which I don't care for.

i am going to ech0 the same thing holfresh since you addressed both of us... I am not a fan of most of the guys on this team and how we were assembled, but as 3g said, I can be won over, but it is going to take a lot, and even then dont expect me to join the carmelo fan club...

I like kidd and honestly have been surpised by sheed, but I don't see any long term growth with these guys seems like short term rentals with no real plan outside of this year... so it is hard for me to buy in. I mean take a look at memphis, if I were a fan I could appreciate that kind of growth and can appreciate how that product has come together...

I am a fan, not a hater, but just not happy with how things are put together.. although I am happy we are 6-1..

Just to echo what Holfresh is saying, once you put on the Blue and Orange and you are down with us, then I'm down with you. Melo's play and even JR since you mention him quite a bit, directly effects the W's and L's of my team. So I root for them to succeed. Didn't follow neither of them very much when they played with the Nuggs, but now they are on my fav team so now I'm a fan.

Lets be honest, we've seen players with far more shady backgrounds join the Knicks and they became fan favorites. We all know about Sprewell's background and lets be honest, the great Bernard King was getting in all sorts of trouble out in Utah from drinking to fighting, etc. He joined us and I didn't care what he did in the past. Just wanted him to help my team win.

Ultimately, as Hol said, it shouldn't matter how we got here who helped us get here. We are here. We've been waiting for this for over a decade. I think the problem that you and others have is that you want to win your way. Meaning you and others want to win with certain type of players and personnel. Am I wrong? To me, again, it doesn't matter, the 2012-2013 team is all we got right now and I'm going to enjoy the ride. Right now, I dont care about the 2009-2010 Knicks nor am I worried about the 2014-2015 Knicks. Thats neither here nor there. All we have is today/this year and I'm really enjoying the ride thus far....

nah, sorry it doesn't work that way. I won't root for guys I see as selfish, and disruptive... pretty much the same way when I like a player and he leaves, I still like the player...I am not going to trash him because he left our team, and I am not going to champion some guy whom I saw a scrub before he came here.. it doesn't work that way with me..

Hey, I want to win, I love winning, and I hope the knicks win, I am just not backing certain dudes on this team... and no this is not all about enjoying the ride, the ride is not enjoyable, winning is fine, but this bunch doesn't excite me as a fan....

TeamBall wrote:

tkf wrote:nah, sorry it doesn't work that way. I won't root for guys I see as selfish, and disruptive... pretty much the same way when I like a player and he leaves, I still like the player...I am not going to trash him because he left our team, and I am not going to champion some guy whom I saw a scrub before he came here.. it doesn't work that way with me..

Hey, I want to win, I love winning, and I hope the knicks win, I am just not backing certain dudes on this team... and no this is not all about enjoying the ride, the ride is not enjoyable, winning is fine, but this bunch doesn't excite me as a fan....

I can actually see where you're coming from with this one. I felt the same way about our roster to begin the season last year since we basically relied on one person to score and had little to no ball movement. I wanted them to win and I cheered for them but I didnt enjoy one bit of what I was seeing.

and that is understandable.