NYKBocker wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

I'm not sure what some of you consider a franchise player, but melo is the closest thing we have to one..You wanna call Ewing a franchise player (who never won a ring) yet you don't want to call melo one..In order to be a leader/franchise player, you have to be the hardest worker on the team and prove it with your game, not your mouth..

I don't think melo is the hardest worker on the team because he gets called out for his defense way to much, and the fact that he can play really good d when he's ready is a testament to why he's on the bubble..

I also consider a franchise player, a player who literally carries a team by himself which melo has done..

It's like the debate ppl have with why Eli, Flacco, Romo are not consider elite..When you have a great supporting cast and your team doesn't soley rely on you to win games/championships, then your just a good player at your position..Denver and the knicks have relied on Melo to win games, and he has carried both teams to respectabilty..thats franchise..

My definition of a franchise player is a player that you build a team around. So..Melo is definitely a franchise player. Did Dolan collect the right players for Melo this year? If this was 10 years ago then the answer is yes, right now they are just too old. If Felton can regain his MDA level of play then I see them in the ECF. If not then I think they might even collapse totally and not even make the playoffs. Melo, STAT and Chandler needs a PG. This was proven last year. This year is all on Felton.

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

What your saying makes sense. To be fair Billups to me was the Alpha dog on that team and its been said he mentored Melo a bit about his maturity and perception. For example if you wnt to be taken seriously, then be more serious. BIllups told him to not dress like a hip hop teenager but as a mature successful man. These are things I read.

To be fair, melo is entitled to grow up and develop leadership qualities. It could happen and given his stature on the team and the face of the franchise he might try. Will it succeed or develop remains to be seen.

I would not say he is the natural leader of this team but if Woodson is trying to develop that it would go a long way in making Melo more accountable for the success of the team. He got everything he wanted leaving Denver to the team he wanted. With the cap space he eats up and the fanfare that came with his "coming home" a lot is expected.

I was not in favor of the trade and not a fan of Melo prior. I can't sit and root against his success so I can be "right" so I choose to let him win me over. He has yet to have his "Knick Moment" so to me does not get the love he deserves but he is pleasent enough, is very very talented and can be fun to watch. The rest will sort itself out.

KNick Moments that galvanize?

Starks "the Dunk". Since he came thru the CBA league and we had little expectatins. Fans loved him but he was an undisciplined bone head who pissed management off with various issues thru the years. We forget those but he headbutted Reggie. I loved he headbutted Reggie. Better then "the dunk".

Nathanal Hawthorne Wingo: "WINGO-clapclap-WINGO-Clappclapp"

Larry Johnson. the 4 pt play was his moment! We loved his energy and professionalism on the court. We stuck by his bad back and kept him in the line up because he had a monster contract. But he had his Moment! It was big.

H20: Big expectation given his contract. We grille him. "The Shot" was his moment and all has been forgiven.

Willis: Remembered for his ROY award? Two MVP? Nope, he limped on the court and they won. He limps and they lose, no moment!

Clyde: Everytime he stepped on the court was his moment! Blows my mind in game where willis limps on he drops 37 and 19 and willis gets the MVP.

Earl the Pearl: Ingrained in my mind are various moves and plays he made. As a Bullet he was "Black JEsus" and the most incredible slasher I have ever seen! As a knick he really never had "a moment", but he has a ring.

Debussure and Bradley: Got two rings. In 1973 when Jerry Lucas got in foul trouble 6'6 guarded Wilt. Wilt guarded Dave. It was epic. Bradley came with great fanfare as nations top player but his Oxford time might have slowed him down and he failed at the 2. They traded Cazzie and moved him over to the 3. It worked. Dollar Bill ran and ran. Two rings is his moment.

Spree? Run to finals in 1999 was great. His primal scream dunks! Yelling at Dolan on court cussing up a storm was not cool. Not during a game. Showing up to camp late, not cool. Breaking his wrist on this boat, not cool.

Charles Smith: Guy made a lot of money and was a very good pro. One moment. Lets not talk about! (see Bill Buckner)

Ewing: Lots of game winners but his moment is the "Finger roll"? Or "no ring"? We love him but where is "The moment".

Melo: None yet. Just smiling trying to grab Rondos ankle while sitting on the floor. Thats it. He has had lots of big games but no Moment.

Amare: Moment was "Knicks are back".

Lin: Lets face it, Linsanity was a bigger moment than anyting Melo or AMare has done "Yet".

We play big games then players can have moments. Ewings "finger roll" and Smiths blown layup are moments but their good player led up to a big game. Like Durz said, Sprees steal lead to H20 moment, smith was a contributor to that team for while. Lost on most is our foul shooting that day was pathetic and that is what lost the game. Smith's heroics should not have been required!

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

What your saying makes sense. To be fair Billups to me was the Alpha dog on that team and its been said he mentored Melo a bit about his maturity and perception. For example if you wnt to be taken seriously, then be more serious. BIllups told him to not dress like a hip hop teenager but as a mature successful man. These are things I read.

To be fair, melo is entitled to grow up and develop leadership qualities. It could happen and given his stature on the team and the face of the franchise he might try. Will it succeed or develop remains to be seen.

I would not say he is the natural leader of this team but if Woodson is trying to develop that it would go a long way in making Melo more accountable for the success of the team. He got everything he wanted leaving Denver to the team he wanted. With the cap space he eats up and the fanfare that came with his "coming home" a lot is expected.

I was not in favor of the trade and not a fan of Melo prior. I can't sit and root against his success so I can be "right" so I choose to let him win me over. He has yet to have his "Knick Moment" so to me does not get the love he deserves but he is pleasent enough, is very very talented and can be fun to watch. The rest will sort itself out.

KNick Moments that galvanize?

Starks "the Dunk". Since he came thru the CBA league and we had little expectatins. Fans loved him but he was an undisciplined bone head who pissed management off with various issues thru the years. We forget those but he headbutted Reggie. I loved he headbutted Reggie. Better then "the dunk".

Nathanal Hawthorne Wingo: "WINGO-clapclap-WINGO-Clappclapp"

Larry Johnson. the 4 pt play was his moment! We loved his energy and professionalism on the court. We stuck by his bad back and kept him in the line up because he had a monster contract. But he had his Moment! It was big.

H20: Big expectation given his contract. We grille him. "The Shot" was his moment and all has been forgiven.

Willis: Remembered for his ROY award? Two MVP? Nope, he limped on the court and they won. He limps and they lose, no moment!

Clyde: Everytime he stepped on the court was his moment! Blows my mind in game where willis limps on he drops 37 and 19 and willis gets the MVP.

Earl the Pearl: Ingrained in my mind are various moves and plays he made. As a Bullet he was "Black JEsus" and the most incredible slasher I have ever seen! As a knick he really never had "a moment", but he has a ring.

Debussure and Bradley: Got two rings. In 1973 when Jerry Lucas got in foul trouble 6'6 guarded Wilt. Wilt guarded Dave. It was epic. Bradley came with great fanfare as nations top player but his Oxford time might have slowed him down and he failed at the 2. They traded Cazzie and moved him over to the 3. It worked. Dollar Bill ran and ran. Two rings is his moment.

Spree? Run to finals in 1999 was great. His primal scream dunks! Yelling at Dolan on court cussing up a storm was not cool. Not during a game. Showing up to camp late, not cool. Breaking his wrist on this boat, not cool.

Charles Smith: Guy made a lot of money and was a very good pro. One moment. Lets not talk about! (see Bill Buckner)

Ewing: Lots of game winners but his moment is the "Finger roll"? Or "no ring"? We love him but where is "The moment".

Melo: None yet. Just smiling trying to grab Rondos ankle while sitting on the floor. Thats it. He has had lots of big games but no Moment.

Amare: Moment was "Knicks are back".

Lin: Lets face it, Linsanity was a bigger moment than anyting Melo or AMare has done "Yet".

We play big games then players can have moments. Ewings "finger roll" and Smiths blown layup are moments but their good player led up to a big game. Like Durz said, Sprees steal lead to H20 moment, smith was a contributor to that team for while. Lost on most is our foul shooting that day was pathetic and that is what lost the game. Smith's heroics should not have been required!

you make good points nalod... but this guy can't win me over....there are just some players I want no part of.. carmelo is one of them.... No he hasn't had any "knick moments"... but for me he is just a part of what kills this franchise... one of dolan's minions, one of dolan's whim purchases.. not sure what will change that for me.. maybe nothing..

I don't root for the knicks top lose at all nalod, but I will say that this is about the least I have been interested in the knicks over my 34 years as a fan... this team is full of guys who are just not likeable...guys that I just can't trust... what I mean by trust, are guys that I trust to invest my time and emotions in, guys whom I know won't cheat me as a fan... I can't trust carmelo...

My expectations are not that high for this team. I know Im suppose to "SUPPORT" the team but my support is not required.
My league pass is my support and the 2-3 games I usually go to.

Does not mean I won't root for them to win every game.

And like any other year I'll follow a few teams to keep it interesting. I think some knick homers might do well to not think the world begins and ends with the knicks. Seems year in and year out the anger builds with false expectations based on not being objective enough about the home team.

I have been reading up on the Knuggs, Kn*ts and Lakers. Knuggs and Kn*ts are about same projected as Knicks. 2nd tier contenders. Its been a while since the knicks were considered this much in a LOOOOOONG time!!!!!

tkf wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

I'm not sure what some of you consider a franchise player, but melo is the closest thing we have to one..You wanna call Ewing a franchise player (who never won a ring) yet you don't want to call melo one..In order to be a leader/franchise player, you have to be the hardest worker on the team and prove it with your game, not your mouth..

I don't think melo is the hardest worker on the team because he gets called out for his defense way to much, and the fact that he can play really good d when he's ready is a testament to why he's on the bubble..

I also consider a franchise player, a player who literally carries a team by himself which melo has done..

It's like the debate ppl have with why Eli, Flacco, Romo are not consider elite..When you have a great supporting cast and your team doesn't soley rely on you to win games/championships, then your just a good player at your position..Denver and the knicks have relied on Melo to win games, and he has carried both teams to respectabilty..thats franchise..

My definition of a franchise player is a player that you build a team around. So..Melo is definitely a franchise player. Did Dolan collect the right players for Melo this year? If this was 10 years ago then the answer is yes, right now they are just too old. If Felton can regain his MDA level of play then I see them in the ECF. If not then I think they might even collapse totally and not even make the playoffs. Melo, STAT and Chandler needs a PG. This was proven last year. This year is all on Felton.

let me ask.. do you build a team around a player who doesn't defend, doesn't make other better and just scores? is that the correct thing to do?

Do you mean Amare? Uh ... NO WAY!

The games will answer our questions.

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

What your saying makes sense. To be fair Billups to me was the Alpha dog on that team and its been said he mentored Melo a bit about his maturity and perception. For example if you wnt to be taken seriously, then be more serious. BIllups told him to not dress like a hip hop teenager but as a mature successful man. These are things I read.

To be fair, melo is entitled to grow up and develop leadership qualities. It could happen and given his stature on the team and the face of the franchise he might try. Will it succeed or develop remains to be seen.

I would not say he is the natural leader of this team but if Woodson is trying to develop that it would go a long way in making Melo more accountable for the success of the team. He got everything he wanted leaving Denver to the team he wanted. With the cap space he eats up and the fanfare that came with his "coming home" a lot is expected.

I was not in favor of the trade and not a fan of Melo prior. I can't sit and root against his success so I can be "right" so I choose to let him win me over. He has yet to have his "Knick Moment" so to me does not get the love he deserves but he is pleasent enough, is very very talented and can be fun to watch. The rest will sort itself out.

KNick Moments that galvanize?

Starks "the Dunk". Since he came thru the CBA league and we had little expectatins. Fans loved him but he was an undisciplined bone head who pissed management off with various issues thru the years. We forget those but he headbutted Reggie. I loved he headbutted Reggie. Better then "the dunk".

Nathanal Hawthorne Wingo: "WINGO-clapclap-WINGO-Clappclapp"

Larry Johnson. the 4 pt play was his moment! We loved his energy and professionalism on the court. We stuck by his bad back and kept him in the line up because he had a monster contract. But he had his Moment! It was big.

H20: Big expectation given his contract. We grille him. "The Shot" was his moment and all has been forgiven.

Willis: Remembered for his ROY award? Two MVP? Nope, he limped on the court and they won. He limps and they lose, no moment!

Clyde: Everytime he stepped on the court was his moment! Blows my mind in game where willis limps on he drops 37 and 19 and willis gets the MVP.

Earl the Pearl: Ingrained in my mind are various moves and plays he made. As a Bullet he was "Black JEsus" and the most incredible slasher I have ever seen! As a knick he really never had "a moment", but he has a ring.

Debussure and Bradley: Got two rings. In 1973 when Jerry Lucas got in foul trouble 6'6 guarded Wilt. Wilt guarded Dave. It was epic. Bradley came with great fanfare as nations top player but his Oxford time might have slowed him down and he failed at the 2. They traded Cazzie and moved him over to the 3. It worked. Dollar Bill ran and ran. Two rings is his moment.

Spree? Run to finals in 1999 was great. His primal scream dunks! Yelling at Dolan on court cussing up a storm was not cool. Not during a game. Showing up to camp late, not cool. Breaking his wrist on this boat, not cool.

Charles Smith: Guy made a lot of money and was a very good pro. One moment. Lets not talk about! (see Bill Buckner)

Ewing: Lots of game winners but his moment is the "Finger roll"? Or "no ring"? We love him but where is "The moment".

Melo: None yet. Just smiling trying to grab Rondos ankle while sitting on the floor. Thats it. He has had lots of big games but no Moment.

Amare: Moment was "Knicks are back".

Lin: Lets face it, Linsanity was a bigger moment than anyting Melo or AMare has done "Yet".

We play big games then players can have moments. Ewings "finger roll" and Smiths blown layup are moments but their good player led up to a big game. Like Durz said, Sprees steal lead to H20 moment, smith was a contributor to that team for while. Lost on most is our foul shooting that day was pathetic and that is what lost the game. Smith's heroics should not have been required!

you make good points nalod... but this guy can't win me over....there are just some players I want no part of.. carmelo is one of them.... No he hasn't had any "knick moments"... but for me he is just a part of what kills this franchise... one of dolan's minions, one of dolan's whim purchases.. not sure what will change that for me.. maybe nothing..

I don't root for the knicks top lose at all nalod, but I will say that this is about the least I have been interested in the knicks over my 34 years as a fan... this team is full of guys who are just not likeable...guys that I just can't trust... what I mean by trust, are guys that I trust to invest my time and emotions in, guys whom I know won't cheat me as a fan... I can't trust carmelo...

My expectations are not that high for this team. I know Im suppose to "SUPPORT" the team but my support is not required.
My league pass is my support and the 2-3 games I usually go to.

Does not mean I won't root for them to win every game.

And like any other year I'll follow a few teams to keep it interesting. I think some knick homers might do well to not think the world begins and ends with the knicks. Seems year in and year out the anger builds with false expectations based on not being objective enough about the home team.

I have been reading up on the Knuggs, Kn*ts and Lakers. Knuggs and Kn*ts are about same projected as Knicks. 2nd tier contenders. Its been a while since the knicks were considered this much in a LOOOOOONG time!!!!!

yea, I have been a league pass subscriber for years now, many years as i do enjoy watching the game of basketball no matter who plays.. this year for me, I am interested in watching the nuggets, the rockets, and to see how the hawks move on, but hey, they are in my back yard so I can see them anytime.... I will still root for the knicks to win everygame, but my expectations and excitement for this team are low.. and this is a first for me.... first in a looooong time... part of my fandom is the progression of a team, the building of a team, the growth, watching them work toward a goal.. I feel that was stolen from me as a fan... and in return so far, all I have are excuses... tkf is not a happy fan... so he vents...

+1

knicks1248 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

What your saying makes sense. To be fair Billups to me was the Alpha dog on that team and its been said he mentored Melo a bit about his maturity and perception. For example if you wnt to be taken seriously, then be more serious. BIllups told him to not dress like a hip hop teenager but as a mature successful man. These are things I read.

To be fair, melo is entitled to grow up and develop leadership qualities. It could happen and given his stature on the team and the face of the franchise he might try. Will it succeed or develop remains to be seen.

I would not say he is the natural leader of this team but if Woodson is trying to develop that it would go a long way in making Melo more accountable for the success of the team. He got everything he wanted leaving Denver to the team he wanted. With the cap space he eats up and the fanfare that came with his "coming home" a lot is expected.

I was not in favor of the trade and not a fan of Melo prior. I can't sit and root against his success so I can be "right" so I choose to let him win me over. He has yet to have his "Knick Moment" so to me does not get the love he deserves but he is pleasent enough, is very very talented and can be fun to watch. The rest will sort itself out.

KNick Moments that galvanize?

Starks "the Dunk". Since he came thru the CBA league and we had little expectatins. Fans loved him but he was an undisciplined bone head who pissed management off with various issues thru the years. We forget those but he headbutted Reggie. I loved he headbutted Reggie. Better then "the dunk".

Nathanal Hawthorne Wingo: "WINGO-clapclap-WINGO-Clappclapp"

Larry Johnson. the 4 pt play was his moment! We loved his energy and professionalism on the court. We stuck by his bad back and kept him in the line up because he had a monster contract. But he had his Moment! It was big.

H20: Big expectation given his contract. We grille him. "The Shot" was his moment and all has been forgiven.

Willis: Remembered for his ROY award? Two MVP? Nope, he limped on the court and they won. He limps and they lose, no moment!

Clyde: Everytime he stepped on the court was his moment! Blows my mind in game where willis limps on he drops 37 and 19 and willis gets the MVP.

Earl the Pearl: Ingrained in my mind are various moves and plays he made. As a Bullet he was "Black JEsus" and the most incredible slasher I have ever seen! As a knick he really never had "a moment", but he has a ring.

Debussure and Bradley: Got two rings. In 1973 when Jerry Lucas got in foul trouble 6'6 guarded Wilt. Wilt guarded Dave. It was epic. Bradley came with great fanfare as nations top player but his Oxford time might have slowed him down and he failed at the 2. They traded Cazzie and moved him over to the 3. It worked. Dollar Bill ran and ran. Two rings is his moment.

Spree? Run to finals in 1999 was great. His primal scream dunks! Yelling at Dolan on court cussing up a storm was not cool. Not during a game. Showing up to camp late, not cool. Breaking his wrist on this boat, not cool.

Charles Smith: Guy made a lot of money and was a very good pro. One moment. Lets not talk about! (see Bill Buckner)

Ewing: Lots of game winners but his moment is the "Finger roll"? Or "no ring"? We love him but where is "The moment".

Melo: None yet. Just smiling trying to grab Rondos ankle while sitting on the floor. Thats it. He has had lots of big games but no Moment.

Amare: Moment was "Knicks are back".

Lin: Lets face it, Linsanity was a bigger moment than anyting Melo or AMare has done "Yet".

We play big games then players can have moments. Ewings "finger roll" and Smiths blown layup are moments but their good player led up to a big game. Like Durz said, Sprees steal lead to H20 moment, smith was a contributor to that team for while. Lost on most is our foul shooting that day was pathetic and that is what lost the game. Smith's heroics should not have been required!

you make good points nalod... but this guy can't win me over....there are just some players I want no part of.. carmelo is one of them.... No he hasn't had any "knick moments"... but for me he is just a part of what kills this franchise... one of dolan's minions, one of dolan's whim purchases.. not sure what will change that for me.. maybe nothing..

I don't root for the knicks top lose at all nalod, but I will say that this is about the least I have been interested in the knicks over my 34 years as a fan... this team is full of guys who are just not likeable...guys that I just can't trust... what I mean by trust, are guys that I trust to invest my time and emotions in, guys whom I know won't cheat me as a fan... I can't trust carmelo...

Your distrust for melo has to be on a personal level, and when he was on denver I had no love for him at all..But I respect him lighting up the knicks almost every time he played us..

I'm not sure what you consider making someone better, but thats not his role, he makes the team better, not players. The knicks haven't won a championship in 40 years, and in that process have had more over paid players then any team in the league right down to houston and a broken down Ewing making 15 mill in his last season with the knicks..Ewing had no intentions of reconstructing his contract to give the franchise the opportunity to upgrade..houston help cripple the franchise (I hope is currently working for free)

Melo is a likable guy off the court more then a lot of Knicks Including Ewing..
so his defense and effort is what probably annoys you to the most, not sure what how you feel about tony douglas who was given an opportunity to run the team, and completely failed in any and every facet of the game..when talking about making players better we need to stop focusing on the highest paid player on the roster, and focus on the pg, thats the job..

kidd, made Rj and kittles way better then they actually was, rj didnt make keyon martin better or anyone else for the matter

Stockton made shannon anderson so much money that we actually thought he was a decent player

kobe, MJ, tim duncan, ect, they don't make players around them better, they make the team better by given max effort.

If you think we even sniff the playoffs the last 2 seasons without melo your really being bias.

Please don't even go there. You're going to unleash a flood of how the "yoots" and Stat were going to get us into the second round, and how that would have enticed CP3 or DWill would be here now...

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NUPE wrote:

biglove44 wrote:

NUPE wrote:NYNY, don't waste your time. There are several posters on this board whose sole agenda is to overrate Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Lin and be overly-critical of the current team. These are the same people claiming Melo is not a superstar, Melo ran Lin out of town, Melo is selfish, Melo is a loser, etc. These people also tend to try to insinuate that Gallo will be as good or better than Melo eventually....

Really, this current Knicks roster is head and shoulders above and superior in just about every way to the Gallo, Mozgov, Amar'e, Felton, Fields Knick team. You know someone is either trolling or not rational when they try to claim otherwise.

There are a lot of Melo homers too. Homers that think of as many excuses as possible as to why he hasn't made the finals/won a championship. It's always someone else's fault or he didn't have X team mate.

It goes both ways. You don't like reading homer posts about other players and I don't like reading homer posts related to Melo.

Rational analysis of Melo's playoff performances and playoff teams does not equate to being a homer. What is irrational are the people that cling to this idea that Melo ran Lin out of town and somehow is in control of the Knicks front office. LoL!

Also, I think Melo is a superstar player that still has a lot to prove in regards to playoff success. This applies to ton of superstars (such as Deron and Love). We will see how the Knicks do this year. I don't think they have any more excuses barring a massive injury riddled playoffs like the last two years.

Deron's record in playoffs are 19-20 with a trip to the conf. finals. But really there are so many variables to the team dynamic that the arguemt of "Melo in the playoffs" insinuates the individual nature of the game of basketball. Its a team game.

ITs hard to quantify the arguement of playoff failures when your first round opponent could be enroute to a long playoff run, injuries, and a ton of other variables.

We can argue the intangables but unless we watched every game of those series in Denver I don't think anyone can really lay blame on Melo for his individual play in those series.

Melo will get you to the playoffs and that keeps ticket sales going pretty good.

Fans want champioinships but some owners want the balance sheet to look good and don't want to risk losing money in the years it would take to build a club properly.

Does this mean because Dolan and the knicks have been constrcuted this way it holds true in the future? Only on internet forums.

The stars can always align when your a top 4 seed.

Winning a champoinship is not easy. Losing one is.

Usually they don't for a top 4 seed. Going back 45 years, to 1967 when the playoffs were expanded to four teams from each conference, there have only been seven championship teams that weren't either a first or second seed and only two that weren't a top 3 seed. Of those 45 champions there were 26 1st, 12 2nd, 5 3rd, 1 4th (the 1966 Boston Celtics), and 1 6th (the 1995 Houston Rockets) seeds. Basically, if we think we have a shot at a championship we need to finish as one of the top two teams in the East.

yes these are chilling and sobering stats. what the math says is that the knicks must be a top 1 or 2 seed if the melo trade is to be justified. the problem is that melo's teams have been a 3rd seed only once and a second seed only once in the west. i have never liked the fact that melo's teams have always seemed to underachieve in the regular season, as though there was some loafing going on. and lets face it the "loafer" tag has followed carmelo anthony his entire career.

if he does not show up in supreme shape and with a maniacal focus on defending the position the knicks are in big big trouble.

How do you underachieve when you are competing in the same conference as the Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Kings and Mavs? Those teams consistently put better products on the floor when Melo was still with the Nuggs. Seriously, have you really analyzed those Nuggs rosters?

BTW, speaking of underachieving, 1 year the Nuggs won 50 games and ended up being an 8th seed.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

players worth signing to the max AND trading for possess these qualities... and melo is not one of them.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

billups elevated the team to legitimate 2nd seed with a 54-28 record.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

If there are only 2-3 teams every year that have a legit shot to win a championship, you just identified teams 4-30 in the league. Every non-championship team goes through this.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

You continue to make these blanket statements without considering the competition. Using your logic, KG and the TWolves should have been a top 1-2 team every year in the west considering that he was MVP, one year and a first team all NBA player. The west was stacked and there were plenty of teams that had better rosters than the Nuggs...

garnett is an interesting case. first off look at the coach flip saunders-- awful. also people forget he was burdened by having to play with dingleberry for several seasons. 1996-7, 1997-8, 1998-9 with that epitome of dysfunction and underachievement. billups came and went. then finally sprewell and cassell in 03-04 and 04-05. then minnie came to its senses nd fired saunders, forcing mchale to step in.

garnett really had nobody to work with but really two seasons.

melo had nene, miller, and camby his first year.
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
nene, martin, billups

carmelo has a had a TON more help than garnett ever did and he had a far far superior coach.

Do you honestly think those Nugget teams you just identified can measure up against the Spurs, Lakers and Suns teams out west? Not even close. So how could you say those teams should have legitimately been a top 3 seed out west every year. There was also a stretch when the Kings were still really good, not to mention those Maverick teams and a few years of McGrady and Yao. The west was loaded during those times.

I noticed The Great Earl Smith and Chris Andersen and Aaron Afflalo and Ty Lawson were omitted from Melo's help list....lol

Do you honestly think this Knicks TEAM measures up to a

Miami Heat
Boston Celtics

TEAM

Come playoff time?

or even the Bulls for that matter with a healthy D-Rose?

Melo had most of those guys on his team when they were pretty much PRIME players and didn't do much if nothing at all with it. Matter of fact the proof is in the pudding with his tenure of teams..... in that Melo lost Camby/Iverson/Kenyon missed 16gms only offset by the addition of Billups and yet he helped get them to the WCF while averaging the sacrificing 22.8pts/ppg one of his lowest outings of his career. Evidence of him doing more with less? The Spurs were only a year removed from Championship contention.

JR and Afflalo are role players. Lawson was a 1st-2nd year player far from prime. None of the rest of those Nuggs were legit second option players. The question still remains unaswered: Were those Nugget squads better than the Suns, Lakers, Spurs and even the Mavs squads out west? The obvious answer is no, so I dont see how anyone can say that since Melo didn't lead them to consitant 2-3 seeds in the playoffs, its a failure especially when I just pointed out 3-4 teams that were definetly better. Not to mention the Rockets with TMac and Yao and for a few years the Knigs still had really good teams.

To answer your question, No, I dont believe the Knicks are better than the Heat or Celts. The Bulls are the wildcard which is why I have the Knicks finishing 3rd-4th in the est this year.

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NUPE wrote:

biglove44 wrote:

NUPE wrote:NYNY, don't waste your time. There are several posters on this board whose sole agenda is to overrate Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Lin and be overly-critical of the current team. These are the same people claiming Melo is not a superstar, Melo ran Lin out of town, Melo is selfish, Melo is a loser, etc. These people also tend to try to insinuate that Gallo will be as good or better than Melo eventually....

Really, this current Knicks roster is head and shoulders above and superior in just about every way to the Gallo, Mozgov, Amar'e, Felton, Fields Knick team. You know someone is either trolling or not rational when they try to claim otherwise.

There are a lot of Melo homers too. Homers that think of as many excuses as possible as to why he hasn't made the finals/won a championship. It's always someone else's fault or he didn't have X team mate.

It goes both ways. You don't like reading homer posts about other players and I don't like reading homer posts related to Melo.

Rational analysis of Melo's playoff performances and playoff teams does not equate to being a homer. What is irrational are the people that cling to this idea that Melo ran Lin out of town and somehow is in control of the Knicks front office. LoL!

Also, I think Melo is a superstar player that still has a lot to prove in regards to playoff success. This applies to ton of superstars (such as Deron and Love). We will see how the Knicks do this year. I don't think they have any more excuses barring a massive injury riddled playoffs like the last two years.

Deron's record in playoffs are 19-20 with a trip to the conf. finals. But really there are so many variables to the team dynamic that the arguemt of "Melo in the playoffs" insinuates the individual nature of the game of basketball. Its a team game.

ITs hard to quantify the arguement of playoff failures when your first round opponent could be enroute to a long playoff run, injuries, and a ton of other variables.

We can argue the intangables but unless we watched every game of those series in Denver I don't think anyone can really lay blame on Melo for his individual play in those series.

Melo will get you to the playoffs and that keeps ticket sales going pretty good.

Fans want champioinships but some owners want the balance sheet to look good and don't want to risk losing money in the years it would take to build a club properly.

Does this mean because Dolan and the knicks have been constrcuted this way it holds true in the future? Only on internet forums.

The stars can always align when your a top 4 seed.

Winning a champoinship is not easy. Losing one is.

Usually they don't for a top 4 seed. Going back 45 years, to 1967 when the playoffs were expanded to four teams from each conference, there have only been seven championship teams that weren't either a first or second seed and only two that weren't a top 3 seed. Of those 45 champions there were 26 1st, 12 2nd, 5 3rd, 1 4th (the 1966 Boston Celtics), and 1 6th (the 1995 Houston Rockets) seeds. Basically, if we think we have a shot at a championship we need to finish as one of the top two teams in the East.

yes these are chilling and sobering stats. what the math says is that the knicks must be a top 1 or 2 seed if the melo trade is to be justified. the problem is that melo's teams have been a 3rd seed only once and a second seed only once in the west. i have never liked the fact that melo's teams have always seemed to underachieve in the regular season, as though there was some loafing going on. and lets face it the "loafer" tag has followed carmelo anthony his entire career.

if he does not show up in supreme shape and with a maniacal focus on defending the position the knicks are in big big trouble.

How do you underachieve when you are competing in the same conference as the Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Kings and Mavs? Those teams consistently put better products on the floor when Melo was still with the Nuggs. Seriously, have you really analyzed those Nuggs rosters?

BTW, speaking of underachieving, 1 year the Nuggs won 50 games and ended up being an 8th seed.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

players worth signing to the max AND trading for possess these qualities... and melo is not one of them.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

billups elevated the team to legitimate 2nd seed with a 54-28 record.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

If there are only 2-3 teams every year that have a legit shot to win a championship, you just identified teams 4-30 in the league. Every non-championship team goes through this.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

You continue to make these blanket statements without considering the competition. Using your logic, KG and the TWolves should have been a top 1-2 team every year in the west considering that he was MVP, one year and a first team all NBA player. The west was stacked and there were plenty of teams that had better rosters than the Nuggs...

garnett is an interesting case. first off look at the coach flip saunders-- awful. also people forget he was burdened by having to play with dingleberry for several seasons. 1996-7, 1997-8, 1998-9 with that epitome of dysfunction and underachievement. billups came and went. then finally sprewell and cassell in 03-04 and 04-05. then minnie came to its senses nd fired saunders, forcing mchale to step in.

garnett really had nobody to work with but really two seasons.

melo had nene, miller, and camby his first year.
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
nene, martin, billups

carmelo has a had a TON more help than garnett ever did and he had a far far superior coach.

Do you honestly think those Nugget teams you just identified can measure up against the Spurs, Lakers and Suns teams out west? Not even close. So how could you say those teams should have legitimately been a top 3 seed out west every year. There was also a stretch when the Kings were still really good, not to mention those Maverick teams and a few years of McGrady and Yao. The west was loaded during those times.

I noticed The Great Earl Smith and Chris Andersen and Aaron Afflalo and Ty Lawson were omitted from Melo's help list....lol

Do you honestly think this Knicks TEAM measures up to a

Miami Heat
Boston Celtics

TEAM

Come playoff time?

or even the Bulls for that matter with a healthy D-Rose?

Melo had most of those guys on his team when they were pretty much PRIME players and didn't do much if nothing at all with it. Matter of fact the proof is in the pudding with his tenure of teams..... in that Melo lost Camby/Iverson/Kenyon missed 16gms only offset by the addition of Billups and yet he helped get them to the WCF while averaging the sacrificing 22.8pts/ppg one of his lowest outings of his career. Evidence of him doing more with less? The Spurs were only a year removed from Championship contention.

JR and Afflalo are role players. Lawson was a 1st-2nd year player far from prime. None of the rest of those Nuggs were legit second option players. The question still remains unaswered: Were those Nugget squads better than the Suns, Lakers, Spurs and even the Mavs squads out west? The obvious answer is no, so I dont see how anyone can say that since Melo didn't lead them to consitant 2-3 seeds in the playoffs, its a failure especially when I just pointed out 3-4 teams that were definetly better. Not to mention the Rockets with TMac and Yao and for a few years the Knigs still had really good teams.

To answer your question, No, I dont believe the Knicks are better than the Heat or Celts. The Bulls are the wildcard which is why I have the Knicks finishing 3rd-4th in the est this year.

Okay

Conclusion says then...as the Hawks and Brooklyn are liable to be Rockets/Kings

Same Results

Same Excuses

No fault of your own, it's simply the formula hasn't changed....THE END!

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NUPE wrote:

biglove44 wrote:

NUPE wrote:NYNY, don't waste your time. There are several posters on this board whose sole agenda is to overrate Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Lin and be overly-critical of the current team. These are the same people claiming Melo is not a superstar, Melo ran Lin out of town, Melo is selfish, Melo is a loser, etc. These people also tend to try to insinuate that Gallo will be as good or better than Melo eventually....

Really, this current Knicks roster is head and shoulders above and superior in just about every way to the Gallo, Mozgov, Amar'e, Felton, Fields Knick team. You know someone is either trolling or not rational when they try to claim otherwise.

There are a lot of Melo homers too. Homers that think of as many excuses as possible as to why he hasn't made the finals/won a championship. It's always someone else's fault or he didn't have X team mate.

It goes both ways. You don't like reading homer posts about other players and I don't like reading homer posts related to Melo.

Rational analysis of Melo's playoff performances and playoff teams does not equate to being a homer. What is irrational are the people that cling to this idea that Melo ran Lin out of town and somehow is in control of the Knicks front office. LoL!

Also, I think Melo is a superstar player that still has a lot to prove in regards to playoff success. This applies to ton of superstars (such as Deron and Love). We will see how the Knicks do this year. I don't think they have any more excuses barring a massive injury riddled playoffs like the last two years.

Deron's record in playoffs are 19-20 with a trip to the conf. finals. But really there are so many variables to the team dynamic that the arguemt of "Melo in the playoffs" insinuates the individual nature of the game of basketball. Its a team game.

ITs hard to quantify the arguement of playoff failures when your first round opponent could be enroute to a long playoff run, injuries, and a ton of other variables.

We can argue the intangables but unless we watched every game of those series in Denver I don't think anyone can really lay blame on Melo for his individual play in those series.

Melo will get you to the playoffs and that keeps ticket sales going pretty good.

Fans want champioinships but some owners want the balance sheet to look good and don't want to risk losing money in the years it would take to build a club properly.

Does this mean because Dolan and the knicks have been constrcuted this way it holds true in the future? Only on internet forums.

The stars can always align when your a top 4 seed.

Winning a champoinship is not easy. Losing one is.

Usually they don't for a top 4 seed. Going back 45 years, to 1967 when the playoffs were expanded to four teams from each conference, there have only been seven championship teams that weren't either a first or second seed and only two that weren't a top 3 seed. Of those 45 champions there were 26 1st, 12 2nd, 5 3rd, 1 4th (the 1966 Boston Celtics), and 1 6th (the 1995 Houston Rockets) seeds. Basically, if we think we have a shot at a championship we need to finish as one of the top two teams in the East.

yes these are chilling and sobering stats. what the math says is that the knicks must be a top 1 or 2 seed if the melo trade is to be justified. the problem is that melo's teams have been a 3rd seed only once and a second seed only once in the west. i have never liked the fact that melo's teams have always seemed to underachieve in the regular season, as though there was some loafing going on. and lets face it the "loafer" tag has followed carmelo anthony his entire career.

if he does not show up in supreme shape and with a maniacal focus on defending the position the knicks are in big big trouble.

How do you underachieve when you are competing in the same conference as the Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Kings and Mavs? Those teams consistently put better products on the floor when Melo was still with the Nuggs. Seriously, have you really analyzed those Nuggs rosters?

BTW, speaking of underachieving, 1 year the Nuggs won 50 games and ended up being an 8th seed.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

players worth signing to the max AND trading for possess these qualities... and melo is not one of them.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

billups elevated the team to legitimate 2nd seed with a 54-28 record.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

If there are only 2-3 teams every year that have a legit shot to win a championship, you just identified teams 4-30 in the league. Every non-championship team goes through this.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

You continue to make these blanket statements without considering the competition. Using your logic, KG and the TWolves should have been a top 1-2 team every year in the west considering that he was MVP, one year and a first team all NBA player. The west was stacked and there were plenty of teams that had better rosters than the Nuggs...

garnett is an interesting case. first off look at the coach flip saunders-- awful. also people forget he was burdened by having to play with dingleberry for several seasons. 1996-7, 1997-8, 1998-9 with that epitome of dysfunction and underachievement. billups came and went. then finally sprewell and cassell in 03-04 and 04-05. then minnie came to its senses nd fired saunders, forcing mchale to step in.

garnett really had nobody to work with but really two seasons.

melo had nene, miller, and camby his first year.
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
nene, martin, billups

carmelo has a had a TON more help than garnett ever did and he had a far far superior coach.

Do you honestly think those Nugget teams you just identified can measure up against the Spurs, Lakers and Suns teams out west? Not even close. So how could you say those teams should have legitimately been a top 3 seed out west every year. There was also a stretch when the Kings were still really good, not to mention those Maverick teams and a few years of McGrady and Yao. The west was loaded during those times.

I noticed The Great Earl Smith and Chris Andersen and Aaron Afflalo and Ty Lawson were omitted from Melo's help list....lol

Do you honestly think this Knicks TEAM measures up to a

Miami Heat
Boston Celtics

TEAM

Come playoff time?

or even the Bulls for that matter with a healthy D-Rose?

Melo had most of those guys on his team when they were pretty much PRIME players and didn't do much if nothing at all with it. Matter of fact the proof is in the pudding with his tenure of teams..... in that Melo lost Camby/Iverson/Kenyon missed 16gms only offset by the addition of Billups and yet he helped get them to the WCF while averaging the sacrificing 22.8pts/ppg one of his lowest outings of his career. Evidence of him doing more with less? The Spurs were only a year removed from Championship contention.

JR and Afflalo are role players. Lawson was a 1st-2nd year player far from prime. None of the rest of those Nuggs were legit second option players. The question still remains unaswered: Were those Nugget squads better than the Suns, Lakers, Spurs and even the Mavs squads out west? The obvious answer is no, so I dont see how anyone can say that since Melo didn't lead them to consitant 2-3 seeds in the playoffs, its a failure especially when I just pointed out 3-4 teams that were definetly better. Not to mention the Rockets with TMac and Yao and for a few years the Knigs still had really good teams.

To answer your question, No, I dont believe the Knicks are better than the Heat or Celts. The Bulls are the wildcard which is why I have the Knicks finishing 3rd-4th in the est this year.

Okay

Conclusion says then...as the Hawks and Brooklyn are liable to be Rockets/Kings

Same Results

Same Excuses

No fault of your own, it's simply the formula hasn't changed....THE END!

What are you babbling about? How are the Hawks remotely close to the C-Webb/Divac/Peja/Bibby Kings? When dudes make blanket statements and I lift it up to reveal a bed-of-facts, I get babbling reponses like the one above.

Formula: Team A has superior talent and homecourt advantage + Team B with inferior talent with homecourt disadvantage= Loss for Team B and early vacation. Its that simple.

If you decide to repond, please write coherently.......

Good catch I meant Sixers...stand corrected

Melo came into the league 2003-2004. The Kings were pretty much done 2006....44win team 2005-2006(8th seed). He did not have to battle them his whole time in Denver. Do I believe the Nets and/or Sixers have a chance to win 43-50gms and finish higher than an 8th seed yes I do. Going forward having this kind of success for a couple seasons....yes I do.