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Walsh/MDA
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nyk4ever
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7/22/2009  10:26 AM
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it."
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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djsunyc
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7/22/2009  10:31 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it."

what it really comes down to is that the knicks are basically a boring franchise right now...so it's ok to go back and forth in the offseason about walsh b/c there's nothing else to talk about. you have another 30 win season coming up w/o the drama of steph + larry + zach + etc. somewhere basketballjones is crying...
Bippity10
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7/22/2009  10:34 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nyk4ever:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it."

what it really comes down to is that the knicks are basically a boring franchise right now...so it's ok to go back and forth in the offseason about walsh b/c there's nothing else to talk about. you have another 30 win season coming up w/o the drama of steph + larry + zach + etc. somewhere basketballjones is crying...

Personally I'm okay with winning 30 games with a young squad. That's part of rebuilding. It sucks, but it was inevitable. That was the whole purpose of trying to get a Kidd/Hill here was too teach the young cats. To me, that was Walsh's first real failure thus far.
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knicks1248
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7/22/2009  10:39 AM
I'm also questioning the fact that walsh is now trying to aquire a rental pg when he easily could have had jennings. He pick Hill really as insurance if lee bolts or gets traded,to make matters more confusing is the fact that MDA hasn't had any real success without a bonifide star pg. We are a uptempo 3 point shooting team that drafted a PF and are rail thin at the guard position.
ES
nyk4ever
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7/22/2009  10:47 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nyk4ever:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it."

what it really comes down to is that the knicks are basically a boring franchise right now...so it's ok to go back and forth in the offseason about walsh b/c there's nothing else to talk about. you have another 30 win season coming up w/o the drama of steph + larry + zach + etc. somewhere basketballjones is crying...

Winning 30 games is what happens when your best players are as young as ours are. I'm fine with it, I've been asking for a rebuild for 9 years, I'm glad I finally got it. If Donnie can somehow get a superstar with some of our assets at the trade deadline that's fine too. I'm all for rebuilding.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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7/22/2009  10:48 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

I'm also questioning the fact that walsh is now trying to aquire a rental pg when he easily could have had jennings. He pick Hill really as insurance if lee bolts or gets traded,to make matters more confusing is the fact that MDA hasn't had any real success without a bonifide star pg. We are a uptempo 3 point shooting team that drafted a PF and are rail thin at the guard position.

Personally I would have targeted a PG just like you. But again your post above is an assumption. How do you know that Walsh did not like Hill better than Jennings. Also keep in mind that you have to have at least 3 if not 4 capable big men to be a contender. As with PG's if you find a good one you hop on them. Lastly, as long as we are making assumptions. Let's assume we get Sessions. Any guarantee that Jennings will be better? He could be, but too early to judge.

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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  10:50 AM
Another thing about the draft. We really can't worry about what position we drafted. We stink. We have needs at every position. If you have two young guys that can really play and they end up at the same position you can always trade them for a need elsewhere. For rebuilding teams, talent is king.
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McK1
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7/22/2009  11:01 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

Let's look at it this way. Let's say we allow Walsh an extra year to go through with his plan for 2010. Let's say he continues along this path and in the summer of 2010 every free-agent shoots us down, dolan gets ticked off and fires him. What situation does the new savior GM come into?

Cap space. At least 3 first rounders and 2 lottery picks on the roster(purposefully excluding Sessions, Lee and Nate on this one), expiring contracts and cap space. So now the next GM has to build the team from this point. Do you think that new GM would feel trapped in a rut that he can't get out of? Or do you think the new GM would be happy with cap space a young team and expiring contracts?

so thanking Walsh for what he has done to clear caproom and going forward with a younger contemporary isn't such a bad thing then?

I love when people answer a question with a question. How about this, you answer my question and then I will answer any follow-up points or questions that you may have.

Could be all good or it could be a mixed bag depending on how the new guy feels about gallo and hill.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/22/2009  11:09 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

Let's look at it this way. Let's say we allow Walsh an extra year to go through with his plan for 2010. Let's say he continues along this path and in the summer of 2010 every free-agent shoots us down, dolan gets ticked off and fires him. What situation does the new savior GM come into?

Cap space. At least 3 first rounders and 2 lottery picks on the roster(purposefully excluding Sessions, Lee and Nate on this one), expiring contracts and cap space. So now the next GM has to build the team from this point. Do you think that new GM would feel trapped in a rut that he can't get out of? Or do you think the new GM would be happy with cap space a young team and expiring contracts?

so thanking Walsh for what he has done to clear caproom and going forward with a younger contemporary isn't such a bad thing then?

I love when people answer a question with a question. How about this, you answer my question and then I will answer any follow-up points or questions that you may have.

Could be all good or it could be a mixed bag depending on how the new guy feels about gallo and hill.

Okay, so mixed bag on how he would feel about the rookies. That's fair and i agree. But it sounds like we agree that at this point in time it's difficult to judge Walsh's plan without knowing how Gallo and Hill turn out(or Douglas, Lee, Sessions, Nate and the not traded Chandler for that matter). If they suck, no GM would be happy. But if they turn out to be players the next GM would be pretty happy about that situation. Agree or disagree? And if you agree then why are we judging Walsh so harshly. And if you disagree, why?
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Markji
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7/22/2009  11:10 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Another thing about the draft. We really can't worry about what position we drafted. We stink. We have needs at every position. If you have two young guys that can really play and they end up at the same position you can always trade them for a need elsewhere. For rebuilding teams, talent is king.
Agree on BPA. It is almost always best to take the best talent available. If its close between 2 players, then take the one whose position you need.

Walsh did try to get a point guard whom he felt would be excellent in this system. It's just that the picks 3 thru 7 were all guards whom we wanted and would have taken if they were available (well, not sure on Flynn). We rated Hill much higher than Jennings and so took Hill. It was a smart move.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/22/2009  11:19 AM
Posted by McK1:


I showed he did.

Your rebuttal was destroyed. It doesn't matter what you think or say after that. A little bit of research on your part would've saved you. I already knew cuz me and boykins2 who use to post here and on the Times forum discussed Ainge in depth back in 04. He said Ainge is doing it right. I said Ainge is f'ing up, he tore down a play-off team and surrounded Pierce with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players. He laughed and said draft picks are the life blood of an organization. Thats how you build. Ainge will end up being a better GM than Thomas, you'll see. Thomas will mire NY in cap hell with no picks or wins to show for it. He was right.


So there was a situation in which you said " I said Ainge is f'ing up, he tore down a play-off team and surrounded Pierce with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players."

Doesn't this just prove the point that you can perceive a GM as being a Fk up one year and then realize he's not?

The point of me bringing Ainge into the conversation was to say that a GM whom you clearly think is a good GM had at one point some intelligent basketball minds (including yourself) saying what an idiot he was.

To label the Walsh era as a failure after so little time doesn't make sense to me. There's actually no point in having this conversation now.

Shouldn't we be having this discussion in a few seasons?
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/22/2009  11:26 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by nyk4ever:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it."

what it really comes down to is that the knicks are basically a boring franchise right now...so it's ok to go back and forth in the offseason about walsh b/c there's nothing else to talk about. you have another 30 win season coming up w/o the drama of steph + larry + zach + etc. somewhere basketballjones is crying...

Personally I'm okay with winning 30 games with a young squad. That's part of rebuilding. It sucks, but it was inevitable. That was the whole purpose of trying to get a Kidd/Hill here was too teach the young cats. To me, that was Walsh's first real failure thus far.


Yes!

I'd rather win 30 games with a young squad that has cap space.

Then win 30 games with the highest payroll in the league.

DW turned a 30 win team with a ridiculous payroll...into a 30 win team with a reasonable payroll outside of Jefferies and Curry?

What is the whining about?

I actually do agree with McK1 about trading Billups.

I think it was Billy Beane that said it's better to blow a team up BEFORE it gets to the painfully obvious point where it's clear that rebuilding is the only option.

Billups was his most moveable piece. Rasheed is gone. He def. blew the Darko draft but a lot of people were raving about the 7 footer with Dirk skills raised on a war zone who would be tough.
Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
McK1
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7/22/2009  11:52 AM
I agree. If hill and gallo are the real deal a new gm coming in is in a good position. Why am i judging walsh at all? 2 Drafts is a fair amount of time to judge a guys direction. Why so harshly? Because he left 2 drafts with 2 very big if's. I feel in both drafts he left much better talent on the board. Taking the BPA may work more often than not in fantasy sports but not in real sports. You go with the talent. Where would orlando be if They'd have went BPA in 04 instead of talent. How scary would the blazers be if they chose the top talent in Durant over the BPA Oden. Another issue is his choice of guys he brought in like hughes. Is he who you want around your youth. wasn't steph banished as a sign new york is moving away from these kinds of players regardless of whatever marginal benefit they represent. I also have issue with wilson being trade bait. How is trading away the teams only defender for 1 of 2 guards who will make a shotty defense even worse make ny better? Finally what is Walsh's contingency for 010 if free agency doesn't help improve the team?
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
knicks1248
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7/22/2009  12:02 PM
Walsh is not consider a failure, but his moves are very questionable.
ES
McK1
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7/22/2009  12:03 PM
Posted by GodSaveTheKnicks:
Posted by McK1:


I showed he did.

Your rebuttal was destroyed. It doesn't matter what you think or say after that. A little bit of research on your part would've saved you. I already knew cuz me and boykins2 who use to post here and on the Times forum discussed Ainge in depth back in 04. He said Ainge is doing it right. I said Ainge is f'ing up, he tore down a play-off team and surrounded Pierce with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players. He laughed and said draft picks are the life blood of an organization. Thats how you build. Ainge will end up being a better GM than Thomas, you'll see. Thomas will mire NY in cap hell with no picks or wins to show for it. He was right.


So there was a situation in which you said " I said Ainge is f'ing up, he tore down a play-off team and surrounded Pierce with a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players."

Doesn't this just prove the point that you can perceive a GM as being a Fk up one year and then realize he's not?

The point of me bringing Ainge into the conversation was to say that a GM whom you clearly think is a good GM had at one point some intelligent basketball minds (including yourself) saying what an idiot he was.

To label the Walsh era as a failure after so little time doesn't make sense to me. There's actually no point in having this conversation now.

Shouldn't we be having this discussion in a few seasons?



Ainge in his first season there traded for 2 first rounders and 4 second rounders. No ambiguity whatsoever about his plan.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-22-2009 12:06 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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7/22/2009  12:09 PM
Posted by McK1:

I agree. If hill and gallo are the real deal a new gm coming in is in a good position. Why am i judging walsh at all? 2 Drafts is a fair amount of time to judge a guys direction. Why so harshly? Because he left 2 drafts with 2 very big if's. I feel in both drafts he left much better talent on the board. Taking the BPA may work more often than not in fantasy sports but not in real sports. You go with the talent. Where would orlando be if They'd have went BPA in 04 instead of talent. How scary would the blazers be if they chose the top talent in Durant over the BPA Oden. Another issue is his choice of guys he brought in like hughes. Is he who you want around your youth. wasn't steph banished as a sign new york is moving away from these kinds of players regardless of whatever marginal benefit they represent. I also have issue with wilson being trade bait. How is trading away the teams only defender for 1 of 2 guards who will make a shotty defense even worse make ny better? Finally what is Walsh's contingency for 010 if free agency doesn't help improve the team?

He left 2 drafts with 2 big ifs?

From this years draft, other than maybe Griffin(and even him) who isn't a big if? Are we really projecting rookies based on summer league? From the year before, can you judge Walsh based on a guy being injured? If Gallo comes out and does nothing this year, then you can really start to get on Walsh for this. But guys do get injured in basketball. There still is a waiting period. If Gallo performs this year your anger was for no reason.

I don't disparage your right to think we should have drafted someone else or that someone may be more successful in the future. We can all speculate. But to say a guy has done poorly with his 2 draft picks(not to mention Douglas), when neither has played yet is baseless.

As for BPA-Who said Dwight wasn't the best player available? Did Portland choose Oden because they had a need at Center or did they choose him because many thought that both he and Durant were going to be superstars. I guess I dont' understand your argument here.

As for Hughes. You and I are in agreement. I don't want him near my guards. That being said, can you really say he has been a detriment?

What is Walsh's contingency plan. I think we've talked about this 1000 times. His contingency plan is that he will have cap space, young players and expiring contracts to acquire the same type of guys you are begging for him to acquire this year. Or he can use these expirings to acquire a draft pick for 2010 or more young players. Plus after all that still be in the ballpark for 2011 free-agency. It is you that have concluded that it is Lebron(and company) or bust.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  12:19 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

Walsh is not consider a failure, but his moves are very questionable.

I think that's fair. Every fan has the right to question moves. Nothing wrong there. He has a plan. So far he has stuck to it. Only time will tell if he is successful. I personally don't care how he gets to his goal, as long as he does. And for that he needs time. Again, if Gallo shows no progress. If Hill shows no potential, if Chandler stagnates while many players drafted after 5 shine then it's time to start blasting. But right now, it seems like most of our criticisms are based on hypothetical trades, made up scenarios and long-term projections of rookies and 2nd year guys before their careers have even started.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  12:21 PM
Personally if my GM gets rid of Marbs, Randolph, Crawford etc and replaces them with cap space, short term contracts and a roster full of young guys I'm having a difficult time understanding what I'm supposed to complain about.
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TMS
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7/22/2009  12:22 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Personally if my GM gets rid of Marbs, Randolph, Crawford etc and replaces them with cap space, short term contracts and a roster full of young guys I'm having a difficult time understanding what I'm supposed to complain about.

the Debbie Downers on this board disagree w/u

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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7/22/2009  12:29 PM
I hope Gallo doesn't become Johnathan Bender pt 2.

most "experts" were in agreement OK4 should be the no. 1 pick because despite Dwight's physical talent he was still raw and OK4 had the training.

Oden was also a consensus no. 1. he was a once every decade center blah blah blah. Portland had signed Pryyzbilla to a long term deal the summer before. He is still young and is still one of the best rebounding/shot blocking centers in the league.

I hope you're right about it not being Lebron or bust
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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