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Knicks' Big Men Coming Up Small
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Bonn1997
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7/16/2007  4:04 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think nj should be favored to win the division (barring health issues)

jkidd, vince, rj, magloire, krstic
with marcus, wright, nachbar, boone, collins/williams off the bench.

Maybe but they do have an older, more injury prone team than Toronto.
AUTOADVERT
TrueBlue
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7/16/2007  4:48 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by djsunyc:

i think nj should be favored to win the division (barring health issues)

jkidd, vince, rj, magloire, krstic
with marcus, wright, nachbar, boone, collins/williams off the bench.

They'll be a great rebounding, half court and running basketball team, but how good will they be defensively is my only question?

I think overall our division is tougher and will make it more difficult for us to come out of it. Toronto is going to be damn good. Boston if they stay healthy, they'll be causing major problems and then Philly plays hard every night so we have no cakewalk and no room for error whatsoever.

i think if everything breaks right, the knicks have a shot also...

Basically we have to have an injury free season, Curry & Zach have to become 2-way players, Back-to-backs need be kept to a minimum, we have to make all of our free throws, we can't have games scheduled within a day of a Holiday or Break in season, Steph needs more preferential treatment from the refs, we have to play ahead more than we do behind, we need at least 1 player to play like a Superstar not just an All-Star, we have to play defense as a team, our point guard's IQ need to rise to the heavens etc etc etc etc.....

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-16-2007 3:49 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bippity10
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7/16/2007  4:54 PM
Knicks lovers have less faith in the team than the "haters" do. I personally look at the roster and see all the talent and think there is no way this team should not be a playoff team. Only their heads can prevent a playoff birth.

Meanwhile the "lovers" who don't have faith in the team are already setting themselves up for the excuse making.
I just hope that people will like me
Nalod
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7/16/2007  5:01 PM

Nate had ADD, Marbury has Alziemers, Zach has turretts, Eddy an inactive thyroid, Isiah is a preditor, Q a bad back, Craw is bulimic, Balky got THC residue in his brain, Mardy road rage, JJ1 anxiety issues, JJ2 a personality defecit, and Dolan is an alcholic!

Lovers have their reasons, haters have their reasons..........Its all the same.
nixluva
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7/16/2007  5:37 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Knicks lovers have less faith in the team than the "haters" do. I personally look at the roster and see all the talent and think there is no way this team should not be a playoff team. Only their heads can prevent a playoff birth.

Meanwhile the "lovers" who don't have faith in the team are already setting themselves up for the excuse making.

WHo are you referring to? I may have missed these posts, but I don't recall anyone that is a supporter of this roster saying anything that sounds like they are bracing for failure and thus need excuses ready to be used.

I don't see how Tor is so superior to us. They already had tons of shooting and then they add two more guys in Delfino and Kapono that are mainly shooters. From what I can see they still should be pretty much what they were. I think Mo Pete was a better defender than either Delfino or Kapono, by a long shot. They still only have one really good penetrator in TJ Ford. Not unless I missed someone they added. They still don't seem like a good playoff team to me. They'll do well in the regular season IMO, but I think they'll run into a wall again in the post season. Even with an improved Bargnani.

NJ is always tough, but I don't see them being as strong defensively as they once were and I don't know if they have what it takes anymore to be the dominant team they once were. They're good tho and since they have Kidd they'll continue to be at the top of the Atlantic if healthy. Now tho they have much stiffer competition.

Boston is a hard one to figure. They should be much improved with Ray Allen. Al and Pierce needed some help and he's plenty. They still won't be able to defend and thus I think they'll be in our boat along with the rest of the weak defending Atlantic.

Philly is up and coming, but i'm not yet convinced that they've made a major step based on the late surge they had. We'll see how that translates over 82 games. They've got some talent, but I think they're gonna be at the back of the bus this year. I think the rest of the Atlantic improved a bit more than they have.

The Knicks have been helped a good deal by the addition of Zach. It makes us a tough team to deal with for 4 qtrs, cuz we can always have a stud in the game that can focus our attack. I think we shoud find it easier to stick with a rotation minus Francis and Frye. Steph, Q, Jared, Zach & Curry - Lee, Jamal, Balkman would seem to give us most of what we need. We'll have a very good bench as well. We should continue to be strong on the boards and in the paint. Plus I expect better shooting from the perimeter this year.
BasketballJones
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7/16/2007  5:47 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Knicks lovers have less faith in the team than the "haters" do. I personally look at the roster and see all the talent and think there is no way this team should not be a playoff team. Only their heads can prevent a playoff birth.

Meanwhile the "lovers" who don't have faith in the team are already setting themselves up for the excuse making.

The homers are expressing the love a mother has for her child - unconditional. The haters are offering conditional love - they'll love the team only if it lives up to their expectations, more like a father.

No, I'm not saying the homers are effeminate or anything like that. These male / female attitudes exist to one degree or another in all of us.



https:// It's not so hard.
BigSm00th
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7/16/2007  6:02 PM
haters just hate all the time, unconditionally. anything good takes on a negative spin or something else entirely unrelated is brought up to counteract whatever perceived 'good' or 'progress' was achieved.
#Knickstaps
djsunyc
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7/16/2007  6:06 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

Knicks lovers have less faith in the team than the "haters" do. I personally look at the roster and see all the talent and think there is no way this team should not be a playoff team. Only their heads can prevent a playoff birth.

Meanwhile the "lovers" who don't have faith in the team are already setting themselves up for the excuse making.

The homers are expressing the love a mother has for her child - unconditional. The haters are offering conditional love - they'll love the team only if it lives up to their expectations, more like a father.

No, I'm not saying the homers are effeminate or anything like that. These male / female attitudes exist to one degree or another in all of us.

haters are this guy:

and lovers are this guy:

is that what you're trying to say?

Panos
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7/16/2007  6:10 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

Knicks lovers have less faith in the team than the "haters" do. I personally look at the roster and see all the talent and think there is no way this team should not be a playoff team. Only their heads can prevent a playoff birth.

Meanwhile the "lovers" who don't have faith in the team are already setting themselves up for the excuse making.

The homers are expressing the love a mother has for her child - unconditional. The haters are offering conditional love - they'll love the team only if it lives up to their expectations, more like a father.

No, I'm not saying the homers are effeminate or anything like that. These male / female attitudes exist to one degree or another in all of us.

Sounds like you are pretty in tune with your feminine side.
RemBee76
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7/16/2007  6:18 PM
The whole dichotomy of "lovers/homers" vs "haters" is a false one, and sorry jones, but so is this idea of "unconditional love" for ones team.

Four years ago I had little love for the team whose front-court was anchored by a gimpy and old Mutumbo, and whose best players were a game but hurting Allan Houston and the poster-child for underachievement Keith Van Horn.

We all have the same goal. The only real difference amongst the fans here is how long they are willing to wait to see that goal come about. Back when we signed Allan Houston to a max contract and set about trading the first rounders we got in the Ewing Trade for the likes of Othella Harrington and Erick Strickland, I knew this team was digging a hole so deep that it would take years to get out of it.

Those who identify themselves as "haters" will tell you that it isn't about patience, it’s the method of rebuilding the team they didn't like. 33 wins would be ok, they'll tell you, if we had a team mostly of drafted young players with a low salary.

This is, of course, BS. No guarantee had we been drafting high in the lottery these past few years that we would be any closer to having a super-star on this team than we do now. Seven years of losing is still seven years of losing, and the "haters" would by complaining just as loudly about our second or third year players as they do now about, say, Zach Randolph, who hasn't even put on a Knick uniform yet.

Not every first rounder is a Tim Duncan or a LeBron James. Who is to say that the "haters" would give any drafted players more time that they gave Channing Frye, a player who was a "bust" and "cooked" two games into his second season as a Knick. They wouldn't, of course. And that highlights the true hypocrisy of their position...They claim they'd be in the boat for a patient rebuild, but their attitude feeds the Mark Bermans, the Mike and Mad Dogs and leads to the empty seats and booing in MSG, all of which send the message to Dolan loud and F'ing clear that we can not rebuild in New York.

And, btw, they also screwed up any chance at a true rebuild when they chased Patrick Ewing out of town in a trade we are still paying for.

My position? Some would call me a "lover" but I hated the Randolph trade. I agree with Bippity that this team has the talent to make the playoffs, just as I thought they did last year. But last year this team was starting from point zero and injuries set them back at the end. Next year I expect bigger and better things, and I expect Isiah, who made the Randolph trade as a GM, to make it work as coach. If he doesn't he should be held accountable, and yes, we should look at replacing him.

Ok, so am I a "hater" or a "lover"?



Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
BasketballJones
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7/16/2007  6:29 PM
Is there really anyone who calls him or herself a hater? That's a label that was put on them, just like "lover" or "homer" was put on someone else.

A couple of years ago, we had guys calling Bip a "Larry Lover". Well... Actually, Bip is a Larry Lover. But I digress.
https:// It's not so hard.
islesfan
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7/16/2007  6:48 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

haters just hate all the time, unconditionally. anything good takes on a negative spin or something else entirely unrelated is brought up to counteract whatever perceived 'good' or 'progress' was achieved.

Speaking of spin, I'm really tired of Isiah using the MSG/Cablevision spin machine to insult Knicks fans intelligence as often as he does. Every Summer League telecast felt like watching State run television.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BlueSeats
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7/16/2007  7:01 PM
It's not about timeframe either, rembee, it's about the confidence of our path. Every year someone starts a thread about what position we need filled most and every year I answer: Leader, PG, two-way player, interior defender, in about that order, and every year we get another offensive oriented head-case who we pay top dollar for and have to feature to justify the expense.

And to compensate we have to hope that those needed positions are filled by late in the draft rookies and sophomores. It's just felt to me that if our salvation will come through the draft anyway we might as well have bettered our odds of getting premium talent that way, which means obtaining and using high draft slots. And if our bloated payroll means the only way we can acquire significant talent is to overpay for persons with suspect motivations maybe we're better off thinning the payroll and trying another approach.

Now if Isiah can somehow pull this all together and make us legitimate contenders then more power to him. But in the meanwhile far too many f our worst fears bear themselves out year after year. Marbury kills the lockerroom, Francis kills the chemistry, players disrespect their coach, Isiah undermines his coaches and keeps picking the "wrong" ones, defense is always suspect, predictable injuries "surprise" us, misuse of the MLE become payroll busting buyouts, guys with "everything to prove" come into camp out of shape, combo tweeners can't establish a position, bombastic and arrogant GM with a reputation as an "assassin" is taken to court by an employee...it just goes on and on.

Lets put it this way, if most of the things that could have gone right for us over isiah's term we'd have been in the playoffs every year, but more often than not they haven't, and mostly for the reasons the haters feared.

Isiah's ability to acquire offensively skilled players with suspect motivation and leadership is outstanding. His ability to draft guys with athleticism, generally good character and upside is also outstanding. His ability to acquire two-way players, guys you can count on, and leadership are very suspect in my opinion. And his own inability to share power seems borderline pathological from here.
BigSm00th
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7/16/2007  7:13 PM
islesfan
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Speaking of spin, I'm really tired of Isiah using the MSG/Cablevision spin machine to insult Knicks fans intelligence as often as he does. Every Summer League telecast felt like watching State run television.

isles it is the team's channel. what do you want them to do, have you and trueblue announcing the game? come on dude, its MSG for christ sake. how much critiquing and bashing are they gonna do of players they see every day, interview every day, ride the team plane/bus with every day, etc.
#Knickstaps
islesfan
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7/16/2007  7:33 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BigSm00th:

haters just hate all the time, unconditionally. anything good takes on a negative spin or something else entirely unrelated is brought up to counteract whatever perceived 'good' or 'progress' was achieved.

Speaking of spin, I'm really tired of Isiah using the MSG/Cablevision spin machine to insult Knicks fans intelligence as often as he does. Every Summer League telecast felt like watching State run television.

isles it is the team's channel. what do you want them to do, have you and trueblue announcing the game? come on dude, its MSG for christ sake. how much critiquing and bashing are they gonna do of players they see every day, interview every day, ride the team plane/bus with every day, etc.

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BigSm00th
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7/16/2007  7:48 PM
right back at you isles

#Knickstaps
TrueBlue
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7/16/2007  8:36 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:
islesfan
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Speaking of spin, I'm really tired of Isiah using the MSG/Cablevision spin machine to insult Knicks fans intelligence as often as he does. Every Summer League telecast felt like watching State run television.

isles it is the team's channel. what do you want them to do, have you and trueblue announcing the game? come on dude, its MSG for christ sake. how much critiquing and bashing are they gonna do of players they see every day, interview every day, ride the team plane/bus with every day, etc.


I prefer Breen over Gus and Kenny and I like Kenny as a color guy but if Homerism dominates your color commentating what separates you from anybody else that's a fan who could call a game? Anybody can be a Homer but not everyone can be Objective and Honest. I think Clyde is very good when he isn't trying to commentate on Vocabulary. Here's an example of all 4

Mike Breen on EY Curry

"We all know Curry is a force in the paint and he's made strides this past yr improving his offensive game. He's also improved his stamina, although it begs to question is he saving himself on the defensive end? His offense has never really been that big of a question mark but if he's truly going to be a FRANCHISE or All-Star caliber player he must improve his play on the defensive end of the court. So many times you watch him let opposing guards and penetrators get to the rim with no resistance".




Clyde's Response

"I think EY is learning and you are correct in order for this Knick team to improve EY's play must improve and I think he will. WHY DOES MARDY COLLINS SHOOT WITH A HITCH IN HIS SHOT? Do you notice that Mike? I have to get in a gym with him and eliminate that from his game. I want to add more SWISHING to his DISHING game.




Kenny's Repsonse

"Well sometimes it gets down to a player who will never be good at certain things. You can't really ask a player to do things he's not good at. Let's face it Curry isn't a great rebounder, probably never will be a great rebounder. 7 reb really isn't all that bad. I'll take his 7reb and 20pts any day of the week. Let me tell you what EY is good at and that's scoring in the paint and that's what he and I SAY UGH will continue to focus on. " OH MY GOODNESS ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MIKE DID YOU SEE WHAT JAMAL JUST DID TO HIS DEFENDER? HIS CAREER MAY BE OVER AFTER THAT MOVE. ANOTHER VICTIM EMBARRASSED ON BASKETBALL'S BIGGEST STAGE, I'M HYPED UP NOW WHERE'S MY POPCORN"!!!!!!!!




Gus' Response

HA HA EY "THE FRANCHISE CORNERSTONE" CURRY GIVIN IT TO THEM THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO STYLE!!!! IS THERE A BETTER CENTER IN THE LEAGUE THAN CURRY? NO DISRESPECT TO EMEKA OR HOWARD WHO ARE ALL-STAR WORTHY IN THEIR OWN RIGHT BUT CURRY IS TOO MANLY FOR ANYONE IN THIS LEAGUE DOWN LOW. I HEAR CURRY LIKES FRIED CHICKEN AND I MAY HAVE TO BREAK DOWN AND MAKE A BATCH FOR HIM MYSELF TO ENCOURAGE HIM TO KEEP THIS KIND OF PLAY UP AND ADD MORE MASS TO HIS MANLY FIGURE. HA HA CURRY EASY BIG FELLA EASY WE'LL NEED YOU DOWN THE STRETCH AS WE CONINUE TO CHOP INTO THIS 20PT DEFECIT"!!!!


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-16-2007 7:38 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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7/16/2007  8:48 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Those who identify themselves as "haters" will tell you that it isn't about patience, it’s the method of rebuilding the team they didn't like. 33 wins would be ok, they'll tell you, if we had a team mostly of drafted young players with a low salary.

This is, of course, BS. No guarantee had we been drafting high in the lottery these past few years that we would be any closer to having a super-star on this team than we do now. Seven years of losing is still seven years of losing, and the "haters" would by complaining just as loudly about our second or third year players as they do now about, say, Zach Randolph, who hasn't even put on a Knick uniform yet.

Not every first rounder is a Tim Duncan or a LeBron James. Who is to say that the "haters" would give any drafted players more time that they gave Channing Frye, a player who was a "bust" and "cooked" two games into his second season as a Knick. They wouldn't, of course. And that highlights the true hypocrisy of their position...They claim they'd be in the boat for a patient rebuild, but their attitude feeds the Mark Bermans, the Mike and Mad Dogs and leads to the empty seats and booing in MSG, all of which send the message to Dolan loud and F'ing clear that we can not rebuild in New York.

That is such a load of BS.

There's no such thing as a guarantee but the Knicks would be in much better shape if they had accumulated lottery picks the past 4 years and cut salary instead of adding it. You constantly hear that the Knicks don't have the assets necessary to make a trade for a superstar. If they had gone the other direction, they very likely would have the assets. A combination from Bynum and Granger, Roy and Gay and Noah, Law, Young and Thornton, would have been a nice start. And chances are they would have had better lottery position if they had gutted the team.

And they could have managed the cap to be in position to sign 2 top free agents in a year or 2 if they wanted to keep try to keep their draft picks.

What hypocrisy? Knicks fans have been ridiculously patient with Isiah, even though he's not looking for a patient rebuild. I'm pretty sure that Isiah was the one who gave up on Frye, not the fans. Isiah was the one that coached him like he was an afterthought and he was the one that traded him away less than 2 years after he said that Frye was the best big man in his draft and would have taken him with the #1 overall pick.

If the Knicks were all young and growing together, instead of a group of overpaid and underachieving stat whores, they would be afforded more time to grow. When you have the highest payroll and every move they make screams that they're trying to win now, expectations rise and people have less patience.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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7/16/2007  9:01 PM
The only thing missing so far has been Major progress. With LB we were supposed to be starting on the path to building a base. OK that blew up and everyone is to blame. Last year however, this team had a rough start as it had to erase the bad taste of the LB season. They DID start to make progress and I don't count it as a total failure like in previous years. It's still a losing season, but you MUST be able to look at things deeper than just the final W/L record. This team was slowly making progress all season and it was a starting place for this team. Now we can take another huge step this year and I just don't see any reasons to be as pessimistic as some here have been all summer.

You look at the team and our top 8 players are good enough to compete with any team. Then you have a bunch of solid young prospects coming up behind them. I don't see reasons to be negative and to bash the moves Isiah has made. Aside from the injuries last year this team did make progress and I can see that they are truly confident about the coming season. This team seems to really like each other and Isiah. I get the feeling that this team has gained a better sense of themselves and what they can do when they're right.

[Edited by - nixluva on 07-16-2007 9:04 PM]
Ira
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7/16/2007  9:29 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by RemBee76:

Those who identify themselves as "haters" will tell you that it isn't about patience, it’s the method of rebuilding the team they didn't like. 33 wins would be ok, they'll tell you, if we had a team mostly of drafted young players with a low salary.

This is, of course, BS. No guarantee had we been drafting high in the lottery these past few years that we would be any closer to having a super-star on this team than we do now. Seven years of losing is still seven years of losing, and the "haters" would by complaining just as loudly about our second or third year players as they do now about, say, Zach Randolph, who hasn't even put on a Knick uniform yet.

Not every first rounder is a Tim Duncan or a LeBron James. Who is to say that the "haters" would give any drafted players more time that they gave Channing Frye, a player who was a "bust" and "cooked" two games into his second season as a Knick. They wouldn't, of course. And that highlights the true hypocrisy of their position...They claim they'd be in the boat for a patient rebuild, but their attitude feeds the Mark Bermans, the Mike and Mad Dogs and leads to the empty seats and booing in MSG, all of which send the message to Dolan loud and F'ing clear that we can not rebuild in New York.

That is such a load of BS.

There's no such thing as a guarantee but the Knicks would be in much better shape if they had accumulated lottery picks the past 4 years and cut salary instead of adding it. You constantly hear that the Knicks don't have the assets necessary to make a trade for a superstar. If they had gone the other direction, they very likely would have the assets. A combination from Bynum and Granger, Roy and Gay and Noah, Law, Young and Thornton, would have been a nice start. And chances are they would have had better lottery position if they had gutted the team.

And they could have managed the cap to be in position to sign 2 top free agents in a year or 2 if they wanted to keep try to keep their draft picks.

What hypocrisy? Knicks fans have been ridiculously patient with Isiah, even though he's not looking for a patient rebuild. I'm pretty sure that Isiah was the one who gave up on Frye, not the fans. Isiah was the one that coached him like he was an afterthought and he was the one that traded him away less than 2 years after he said that Frye was the best big man in his draft and would have taken him with the #1 overall pick.

If the Knicks were all young and growing together, instead of a group of overpaid and underachieving stat whores, they would be afforded more time to grow. When you have the highest payroll and every move they make screams that they're trying to win now, expectations rise and people have less patience.


The best players to switch teams this year have been Ray Allen, Jason Richardson, Rashard Lewis and Zach Randolph. So I guess we got one of them without being under the cap. Now which of those four players is the youngest? It's Zach. And who did we give to get Zach? Channing Frye and Steve Francis. And we did this while being over the cap.
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