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What exactly has Isiah done as an executive anywhere
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islesfan
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1/12/2006  9:58 AM
Wow, whats the matter with you people? Geez, I didn't think my response to a silly question was that important to you guys or else I would have clicked on this thread earlier.

It's not about Isiah getting X amount of years but as the years go by, and years have gone by, there has to be some kind of foundation where you can say, ok we have the makings of a foundation and have the ability to add important pieces in the near future that will have us competing for a championship. Over 2 years later you can't say that and a 5 game winning streak doesn't change that. Or maybe you think Toronto and the Hawks are on their way to becoming championship contenders since they've had good runs recently.

So your question is a silly one. Should we set a time frame and then close our eyes and hope that we're contenders when the time comes or do we judge and evaluate where we are and where we're going along the way? You'd be a fool to suggest anything but the latter.

Hey Bonn, give it up already. The reason why you don't avoid questions 3 times is because I don't bother to ask you more than once. I think I asked you multiple times once and you just avoided it again, after that I stopped giving you the benefit of the doubt and knew you just like to dodge questions.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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djsunyc
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1/12/2006  10:00 AM
can we revisit this at the end of the season?

we're in the midst of a 5 game winning streak and within a stone's throw of the playoffs. let's enjoy the ride and start talking about who to trade and who to fire after the season. i think everything negative about this team has been beaten down ad nauseum during the 7-21 stretch.
islesfan
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1/12/2006  10:02 AM
Posted by misterearl:

My problem with Islesfan is that his opinion is rooted firmly in a negative personal bias against what Isiah Thomas stands for.

His resentment is not really about Isiah's job performance with the Knicks. It's about much more.

Yeah because his record so far is just beyond reproach. What are we, 20-25 games under .500 with Isiah? Yeah, it's not really about his job performance because it's obviously been terrific.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
misterearl
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1/12/2006  11:28 AM
C'mon Islesfan, aren't YOU the one who wants to hold Isiah's head over the open fire on a stick? You are entitled to your demanding expectations. I have no problem with that. Can you simply state where your expectations must be met on the calendar?

I only want you to identify a date.

Or are you just screaming "fire Isiah" to create chaos in a crowded theatre?

Read my lips: From the time he took the job, two years and almost one month ago, how long should it take the Isiah Thomas-led New York Knicks to make the Eastern Finals and/ or the NBA Finals?
once a knick always a knick
islesfan
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1/12/2006  11:54 AM
Posted by misterearl:

C'mon Islesfan, aren't YOU the one who wants to hold Isiah's head over the open fire on a stick? You are entitled to your demanding expectations. I have no problem with that. Can you simply state where your expectations must be met on the calendar?

I only want you to identify a date.

Or are you just screaming "fire Isiah" to create chaos in a crowded theatre?

Read my lips: From the time he took the job, two years and almost one month ago, how long should it take the Isiah Thomas-led New York Knicks to make the Eastern Finals and/ or the NBA Finals?

If you don't want to read my answer to your silly question that's fine but please stop pretending that I didn't answer it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:02 PM
Islesfan - you NEVER answered the question.

But it's cool if you can't

Really
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:14 PM
Please pardon the bootleg post from my man rembee at NYT

It deserves a careful reading. I promise to do extra laps after practice.

("man, we talkin' bout practice" Iverson)

rembee - You could see this coming from a mile away…Larry Brown gets the credit for turning Isiah’s band of losers into winners. Never mind that Zeke got us talent for scraps, or that he was the one who acquired Larry Brown (no, not David Stern)…We will continue to hear from some about how the team should be winning with its payroll, how Brown adds 10 wins so this is a 25 win team without him, how “All-Flash” Isiah is counting the days to making a graceful exit on a high note to leave Brown in charge of the team. Meanwhile, fans of the team enjoy watching the guys this management team has assembled and coached, watching our young guys turn into men, and our vets prove that they already are. If you don’t have an agenda, it isn’t hard to enjoy.

more rembee- So it isn’t surprising that Lawrence discounts the leadership that Isiah brings to the table, and the contributions he has made to this recent run. Isiah called out these guys, saying they were playing soft at home. They responded. Isiah brokered the meeting between Brown and Marbury to encourage them to talk man to man, instead of through the press. Steph responded. Isiah talked to Ariza during a practice after his recent run-in with Brown, Ariza responds with a strong game when his number was called. Isiah has supported Curry not only with a contract, but with the trainers and nutritionists Eddy needs to get his weight under control and find his game again. He has responded as his game improves with every pound he shed. He is easily the biggest reason for the team’s improvement.

even more rembee - Isiah knew from the start the kind of teaching coach this team needed, he just made the wrong call at first. So what, Brown wasn’t available. Now, the two of them are equal parts motivator, taskmaster, and mentor. The guys are responding, not only embracing the system, but showing confidence by displaying the skills that put them in Isiah’s sights in the first place.

rembee concludes - We can dig it. The haters can’t. No surprise.
once a knick always a knick
islesfan
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1/12/2006  12:15 PM
misterearl - my suggestion to you is to learn how to read.

But it's cool if you can't

Really
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
misterearl
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1/12/2006  12:21 PM
Islesfan - if I wasn't enjoying this recent run of Knicks basketball so much I'd tell you to pick up a complementary copy of Hooked On Phonics

Ain't Isiah Thomas doing a marvelous job?

Read it and weep sucka
once a knick always a knick
martin
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1/12/2006  12:47 PM
step up Isles.

You have critisized Isiah for his management style and trades, etc. but it's not like trades and drafts show instant gratification like some stripper given a $100 bill and 15 minutes of music. These things take time. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what timeframe YOU would judge Isiah and his moves to see if they pan out or not.

if Curry only average 10 ppg and 5 rpg this year you can certainly say that Curry has not lived up to his contract and expectations, all things considered. But if the dude goes on to average 25 and 10 and fouls out his man repeatedly starting in year 3 and sustains that for 10 years running, we have a winner trade by Isiah.

What's your framework for judging Isiah? 1 year? 2 years? 3? 5?

Jerry West must SUCK BIG time in your book. Dude we supposed to be the best GM in the NBA but hasn't gotten close the the conference finals, in fact, has his team sniffed 2nd round?
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Allanfan20
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1/12/2006  1:29 PM
I am really no huge fan of Isiah Thomas, but we're in the middle of a 5 game streak first of all. Let the Knicks continue to grow. But also, if you're going to get angry at Isiah, then go look at Dolan too, who has hired Isiah and has let things take this long. He's the one that truely helped this team collapse in the first place, but everything else is completely overshadowing him....

But like I said, we've won 5 games in a row. Lets see if they can make it 6 tommorrow night.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
simrud
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1/12/2006  2:01 PM
IT def made some bad moves. He made some moves on which the jury is still out. I personally don't like him and think we can find a better GM. And no misterearl it has nothing to do with the fact that IT is black so before you start your racist this racist that nonsense again just stop. I'll take Dumars as my GM anyday.

[Edited by - simrud on 01-12-2006 2:02 PM]
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
SlimPack
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1/12/2006  2:09 PM
I think the thing with islesfan is that he thinks, that it doesnt matter how long he SHOULD give IT, becuase he has already failed. But there is where he and I disagree, I think this team definately does have a future, and IT seems to do a good job of adding talent to the roster every season despite being inconceivable over the cap, I guess thats why I dont push for his firing as much as isles does.
simrud
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1/12/2006  2:12 PM
Well given IT's track record here one can make an argument has has already failed. Ofcourse that would just be an opinion as many things still need time to be resolved. But it isnt inconcivable that IT just sucks. Its just as a legitimate opinoin as the IT is god school of thinking.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
islesfan
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1/12/2006  3:17 PM
Posted by martin:

step up Isles.

You have critisized Isiah for his management style and trades, etc. but it's not like trades and drafts show instant gratification like some stripper given a $100 bill and 15 minutes of music. These things take time. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what timeframe YOU would judge Isiah and his moves to see if they pan out or not.

if Curry only average 10 ppg and 5 rpg this year you can certainly say that Curry has not lived up to his contract and expectations, all things considered. But if the dude goes on to average 25 and 10 and fouls out his man repeatedly starting in year 3 and sustains that for 10 years running, we have a winner trade by Isiah.

What's your framework for judging Isiah? 1 year? 2 years? 3? 5?

Jerry West must SUCK BIG time in your book. Dude we supposed to be the best GM in the NBA but hasn't gotten close the the conference finals, in fact, has his team sniffed 2nd round?

Martin, as I said earlier, I don't think you can just arbitrarily take an X amount of time and solely judge a GM based on that. I think you judge a GM from his first moves and that's exactly what I've done with Isiah after he made the Marbury deal. If you're going to take on hundreds of millions of dollars in salary and trade away multiple potential lottery picks then you'd better have the foundation for a championship contender. I don't think we have that and I don't think many people do.

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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1/12/2006  3:50 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:

step up Isles.

You have critisized Isiah for his management style and trades, etc. but it's not like trades and drafts show instant gratification like some stripper given a $100 bill and 15 minutes of music. These things take time. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what timeframe YOU would judge Isiah and his moves to see if they pan out or not.

if Curry only average 10 ppg and 5 rpg this year you can certainly say that Curry has not lived up to his contract and expectations, all things considered. But if the dude goes on to average 25 and 10 and fouls out his man repeatedly starting in year 3 and sustains that for 10 years running, we have a winner trade by Isiah.

What's your framework for judging Isiah? 1 year? 2 years? 3? 5?

Jerry West must SUCK BIG time in your book. Dude we supposed to be the best GM in the NBA but hasn't gotten close the the conference finals, in fact, has his team sniffed 2nd round?

Martin, as I said earlier, I don't think you can just arbitrarily take an X amount of time and solely judge a GM based on that. I think you judge a GM from his first moves and that's exactly what I've done with Isiah after he made the Marbury deal. If you're going to take on hundreds of millions of dollars in salary and trade away multiple potential lottery picks then you'd better have the foundation for a championship contender. I don't think we have that and I don't think many people do.

on one hand you say that you can take a fixed time period ("I think you judge a GM from his first moves") and judge someone, but then you come back with "you can't arbitrarily judge someone over a long period"? Sh!t, Knicks won 5 games! They must be championship material! Fixed time period... hogwash. In fact, you have been arguing AGAINST a small window look in the the other thread (predicting a 5 game win streak).

I am not asking you to arbitrarily grab a time period. I am asking you to put a stake in the ground and say, given this reasonable amount of time, I think we can fully understand the extent of Isiah's cummulative moves, and whether they have been good or bad.
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islesfan
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1/12/2006  4:15 PM
As I've said in the past, I think 2+ years is a reasonable amount of time to judge whether Isiah has established a solid foundation with the ability to add major pieces in the near future. He hasn't.

If a GM starts making bad moves from the very beginning of his tenure that directly impacts the teams ability to make moves in the near future then shouldn't he be judged on them right away instead of waiting years down the road just because you feel you have to wait X amount of time?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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1/12/2006  4:23 PM
Larry Brown, Nate, Lee, Curry, Crawford, Frye, Woods, Butler, Ariza, Marbury is not a solid foundation? Not young and athletic enough?

Oh, and Isiah doens't indeed have the ability to add too many major pieces in the near future cause he already got them. Of course those expiring contracts may or may not turn into something.
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fishmike
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1/12/2006  4:35 PM
Its very hard to judge championship caliber talent until it actually wins. The Pistons are a great example. Big Ben's Pistons were 32-50, and if you look at his #'s that year they were almost identical to the years he won DPOY. Billups was unwanted, played for losers and signed for the MLE. Rip Hamilton was always regarded as nice player but he certainly didnt elevate those Wash teams and the Wizards were just bad when he was there. Probably the best player talent wise was Sheed, who was a poster child for all things wrong with the NBA. Now they are all stars and we aspire to have players like them. Is it as simple as a bunch of years under Carlisle and Brown transformed talented players into winning ones?

I dont have that answer, but if you pressed me for my opinion I would say its a big part of it.

Isiah overpays in trades to get his guy. He always seems to bid against himself and drive up the price. His FA signings have been dreadfull and thats nice. At least Vin Baker was only 2 years, but 5 for snacks is as bad as any Layden moves. Still, the overall talent and age have improved. He's put essentially all his eggs in Marbury and Curry and we could much worse.

Right now I see the core as
Marbury, Nate, Crawford
Curry, Lee, Frye

You have skills and explosive scoring in the backcourt and great size up front. Lee, Curry and Frye all bring critical skills when building a championship caliber roster.

Will they ever get there? Well, Isiah has dumped it in Brown's lap and he seems to be doing pretty well so far. No I dont just ignore the 7-21. It was painfull, but LB is LB and I have to admit he did things I wish our previous coaches did. Funny how when it happened it was so hard to stomach.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheloniusMonk
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1/12/2006  4:38 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I think you judge a GM from his first moves and that's exactly what I've done with Isiah after he made the Marbury deal.

Listen to that statement and then read this:

Dumars' first season at the player personnel helm had some people scratching their heads. He traded Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins. He sent Hunter to Milwaukee for Billy Owens. The Pistons finished an ugly 32-50

http://www.nba.com/finals2004/pistons_040617.html

Based on your logic, you would have called for Dumars' head.

'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
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What exactly has Isiah done as an executive anywhere
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