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TMS
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11/30/2008  8:46 PM
Posted by VDesai:
He struck out 38 batters in 30 innings, routinely hitting 94-95 mph with his fastball - something he didn't do during his time with the Yankees last season.

i've seen Hughes hit 94 consistently in starts before... his problem was his fastball had little to no movement & guys were blasting those 4 seamers on a regular basis... plus he was getting behind hitters in the count & forced into situations where he had no choice but to throw that straight fastball & he wasn't keeping guys guessing... i really hope that new changeup will help matters but i'm not putting any hopes in a cutter pitch cuz that won't help much against right handed hitters.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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VDesai
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11/30/2008  8:52 PM
He has hit 94 as a Yank- but reallly he's been sitting at 90-92 since he's been in the majors. If he can pump that velocity in the mid 90's with consistency that should help him quite a bit.

I think we saw a lot of that promise coming to fruition at the end of 2007 and into the playoffs that year and I think he'll really step in and bounce back if he can continue to stay healthy though the offseason.

Also another note, which isn't a big deal, but Ian Kennedy is absolutely dominating in the Puerto Rican winter league right now.
TMS
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11/30/2008  8:56 PM
that's good to hear about Kennedy but he's been dominant in AAA too... i just hope he doesn't end up being 1 of those AAAA players that never pan out for us.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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11/30/2008  9:06 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the AL period & that's due to his desire to stay in the NL, not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.
So basically desirable FAs fall into one of two groups: (a) they don't want to be here; or (b) they did want to be here but Cashman found a way to screw things up. That's wonderful

um, no but typical response from you on that one.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-30-2008 5:47 PM]
Whether you like it ornot, every single player you mentioned fits one of those two categories.
TMS
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11/30/2008  9:15 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the AL period & that's due to his desire to stay in the NL, not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.
So basically desirable FAs fall into one of two groups: (a) they don't want to be here; or (b) they did want to be here but Cashman found a way to screw things up. That's wonderful

um, no but typical response from you on that one.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-30-2008 5:47 PM]
Whether you like it ornot, every single player you mentioned fits one of those two categories.

Jason Giambi, David Justice, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens & of course your boy Mike Mussina... all high profile Cashman acquisitions... i know i've made this point clear to you many times over in this thread but i figured u'd resort to overgeneralizations again to try & make some point sound legit.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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11/30/2008  9:46 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

Johan wanted to be a Yankee last year... Carlos Beltran wanted to be a Yankee a couple years ago... Vlad Guerrero gave every indication he would have signed here too... sometimes the circumstances just don't make it possible to bring some guys on board that otherwise you would want & other times u pass up on guys you should have not passed up on... it happens to every franchise in baseball & will continue to happen regardless if it's Cashman, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein or anyone else who's your GM.

as Yankees fans we've been so spoiled over the years w/the ability to sign just about anyone & everyone we wanted, sometimes it's difficult to comprehend when some guys just don't wanna come here... this is nothing new, we've been turned down by other high profile talent in the past before... we tried to trade for Juan Gonzalez in 2000 & even offered him a 1 year extension but he nixed the deal cuz he wanted to turn free agent after that season... players have different reasons why they don't wanna play here, not always because they don't wanna play on a "3rd place team" as you put it... Jake Peavy prefers to stay in the AL period & that's due to his desire to stay in the NL, not because he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees... if there was any AL team he would consider i would have to believe the Yankees would be among the top of his list... u just gotta accept the fact that not everyone is cut out to be a Yankee... & i for damn sure don't want any part of someone who's not enthused about the idea of coming here, i don't care how great a player they are.
So basically desirable FAs fall into one of two groups: (a) they don't want to be here; or (b) they did want to be here but Cashman found a way to screw things up. That's wonderful

um, no but typical response from you on that one.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-30-2008 5:47 PM]
Whether you like it ornot, every single player you mentioned fits one of those two categories.

Jason Giambi, David Justice, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens & of course your boy Mike Mussina... all high profile Cashman acquisitions... i know i've made this point clear to you many times over in this thread but i figured u'd resort to overgeneralizations again to try & make some point sound legit.

Most of those turned out poorly or OK but not great. The great opportunities always pass by Cashman. If Mike Mussina is my boy, I'm gonna have to say Brian Cashman is yours. You spend much more time defending him than I do even mentioning Mussina.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 11-30-2008 9:47 PM]
TMS
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11/30/2008  10:08 PM
Most of those turned out poorly or OK but not great.

Giambi posted up 2 huge seasons for us the first 2 years he was here & helped this team to get to a World Series... i wouldn't call that just an OK signing... did u know he was taking roids when he was signed & his body would break down soon after? i bet you didn't.

David Justice was the single most important reason why we even got to the WS in '00 to win that championship to begin with... hardly what i'd call just an OK acquisition.

Randy Johnson won 34 games in 2 seasons while he was a Yankee including going 5-0 vs BOS & finishing second in K's in the AL his 1st year here... not sure how you'd call that just an OK acquisition when all we gave up to get him was Javy Vazquez, Brad Halsey & Dioner Navarro.

Roger Clemens? a Cy Young Award & 2 World Series rings on his finger which he played a big role in getting & by all rights should have had a 3rd if not for Mariano's famous implosion in game 7 of the '01 WS... i know i've pointed this out to you before many times... just an OK acquisition? i don't think so.

Mike Mussina helped this team get to 2 World Series appearances & was a 20 game winner last year... if nothing else he was at the very least a smart acquisition by Cashman, & this is coming from someone who doesn't even particularly care for the guy... i would expect a fan of his like you to acknowledge that at the very least.

Cashman's made his share of mistakes & his share of good acquisitions... i only defend him when you make nonsensical remarks about the guy, which is pretty often.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/1/2008  6:27 AM
Cashman has a low batting average with FA signings but occasionally and prior to 2003 they worked out well. You've put a positive spin on a lot of those signings. You selectively listed Cashman's best signings, yet I doubt most fans are happy how at least half of that selectively positive list turned out (Giambi, Randy who benefited from huge run support, or the 2nd Clemens signing). I've never said Cashman was awful but I expect more than an occasional FA signing that works out from a GM with nearly unlimited resources.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-01-2008 07:39 AM]
TMS
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12/1/2008  6:06 PM
u've consistently taken potshots at Cashman's GMing abilities so please enough w/the spin doctoring... & u're the only one here using selective memory just for his moves from '03 to now in this conversation to put a solely negative spin on his tenure here as the GM... i've always stressed the point that he's made his fair share of good & bad acquisitions & pointed out the bad ones to you in the past (Jose Contreras, Kei Igawa, Jeff Weaver, Javy Vazquez, Carl Pavano)... meanwhile all u can do is come out w/these blanket statements knocking him as a GM & labelling most of his moves innaccurately as not being good ones all the time... then when i present the counterpoints like i just did to refute you all you can do is bring up the "unlimited resources" argument as if you expected the guy to have brought a championship to NY every other year... you have no backup argument on this issue other than that... the team went to 5 World Series & won 3 championships w/him at the helm & by all rights should have had a 4th ('01), what more could u possibly ask for as a fan?

you say you expected more than an occasional FA signing that works out from a GM & he's given that to you... he's completely refurbished the farm system from 1 of the worst in baseball to 1 of the best in the span of 2 years... he's directly responsible for the Yankees having the best young pitcher we've had in a decade in Joba Chamberlain & hasn't traded away any bigtime prospects that have gone on to prolonged success on other teams in the years he's been our GM like other GM's have done... Cashman has been a very good GM for this franchise over the years... a GM can't stand at the plate & hit, catch or throw... the rest is up to the players to execute.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
4949
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12/1/2008  6:18 PM
If we can't sign some big quality pitchers this year, then we should go after Manny, boost up our offense, especially the clutch hitting part of it and then concentrate fully on fixing our pitching until we get it in the right frame of mind. Let's fix one end of the sinking ship and then the other end after.

I think it is very important to put Manny in the clean-up spot, behind A-Rod. This will make A-Rod a much dangerous hitter to pitch to, because they will be forced to pitch to him more to get him out, but at the same time, increasing his chances and increasing his numbers. The thinking behind this is 'you don't want to pitch to a guy like Manny, a known clutch hitter, with men on base.

[Edited by - 4949 on 12-01-2008 6:24 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
Bonn1997
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12/1/2008  6:44 PM
Posted by 4949:

If we can't sign some big quality pitchers this year, then we should go after Manny, boost up our offense, especially the clutch hitting part of it and then concentrate fully on fixing our pitching until we get it in the right frame of mind. Let's fix one end of the sinking ship and then the other end after.
So basically after we miss out on the top pitchers, we should buy more offense instead? That sounds like the past 4 or 5 off-seasons and I could easily see it happening again.
jaydh
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12/1/2008  7:08 PM
If the Yanks miss out on CC and Peavy, they will go hard after Lowe and Perez.
4949
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12/1/2008  7:14 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:

If we can't sign some big quality pitchers this year, then we should go after Manny, boost up our offense, especially the clutch hitting part of it and then concentrate fully on fixing our pitching until we get it in the right frame of mind. Let's fix one end of the sinking ship and then the other end after.
So basically after we miss out on the top pitchers, we should buy more offense instead? That sounds like the past 4 or 5 off-seasons and I could easily see it happening again.

We're losing Giambi, so yes. If' we can't get the kind of pitchers we want. And we're talking about Manny here, not Giambi or Sheffield types. We can at least force A-Rod to be worth more than what he has been getting. Hell, I think we should try' to get Manny and at least two very good pitchers on this team.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Bonn1997
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12/1/2008  8:10 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:

If we can't sign some big quality pitchers this year, then we should go after Manny, boost up our offense, especially the clutch hitting part of it and then concentrate fully on fixing our pitching until we get it in the right frame of mind. Let's fix one end of the sinking ship and then the other end after.
So basically after we miss out on the top pitchers, we should buy more offense instead? That sounds like the past 4 or 5 off-seasons and I could easily see it happening again.

We're losing Giambi, so yes. If' we can't get the kind of pitchers we want. And we're talking about Manny here, not Giambi or Sheffield types. We can at least force A-Rod to be worth more than what he has been getting. Hell, I think we should try' to get Manny and at least two very good pitchers on this team.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I'll be really upset if Johan, CC, and Peavy were all available in a 12 month span and we struck out. When that happens, 3rd place finishes should not be surprising.
Bonn1997
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12/1/2008  8:11 PM
Posted by jaydh:

If the Yanks miss out on CC and Peavy, they will go hard after Lowe and Perez.
Getting a bronze medal is better than getting no medal, I guess.

islesfan
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12/1/2008  10:45 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by jaydh:

If the Yanks miss out on CC and Peavy, they will go hard after Lowe and Perez.
Getting a bronze medal is better than getting no medal, I guess.

Bronze medals the way guys like Jimmy Key and David Wells were bronze medals.

I guess one man's gold is another man's bronze.

The Yankees should sign Manny regardless of what pitchers they acquire.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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12/2/2008  3:42 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by jaydh:

If the Yanks miss out on CC and Peavy, they will go hard after Lowe and Perez.
Getting a bronze medal is better than getting no medal, I guess.

Bronze medals the way guys like Jimmy Key and David Wells were bronze medals.

I guess one man's gold is another man's bronze.

The Yankees should sign Manny regardless of what pitchers they acquire.

Perez is a 4+ NL ERA pitcher. Mentioning him in the same sentence as guys like Wells and Key is insulting to the latter two. You never know what you're going to get from Lowe each season but if he has an average season for him, he would be a nice addition but would not even replace the loss of Mussina, giving us a net loss. These guys would be better than doing nothing but I'd expect more from a GM with virtually unlimited resources given how desperate our team is unless the goal is to have another 3rd place finish or maybe another 1st round playoff exit.
TMS
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12/2/2008  3:56 AM
yes, that's exactly what the goal is Bonn... to finish in 3rd place every year... i can't believe it took u this long to realize it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/2/2008  6:18 AM
Thanks; now Cashman's decisions make so much more sense
TMS
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12/2/2008  12:53 PM
Yankees refused arbitration on Pettitte & Abreu... Pettitte i can understand since he was slated to make more than they were willing to pay him, but not sure why they didn't offer Abreu since they coulda gotten some compensation picks out of him that way... headscratcher.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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