Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

i suspect if you take away most teams starting C, starting PF, and bench scorer in Bogs, they won't have much depth either. Especially come playoff time when rotations are shortened. Reg season we prob play Sims, Burks and Milton, but now is much harder.

Where we lost depth was the OG trade, but we'll replenish this summer with picks and FA's.

Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

I'm sorry, but this is what you think about your team when they are one game up in the second round of the playoffs? I'll say it again - to each their own!

Everything you do in the offseason - the draft, FA, Preseason, the trade deadline, each trade - is all in preparation for this moment - The Playoffs. I love my team, but we could have been more prepared for the playoffs in terms of our bench. We are down to 7 usable players on a roster of 15 players. I just keep pointing out all of the missed chances we had to add better depth to the roster that we missed on. Trading Obi Toppin for absolutely zero, nada, squazzole is a glaring example of a wasted opportunity to send out a young useful role player and to get a young useful role player in return. I would consider that an equal return. Gift wrapping him to the team of his choice for absolutely no return is bad look. You disagree you want to see rainbows and unicorns I get it. We are playing great basketball right now. That's great, but being down to 7 usable players, not so great.

Toppin was not a Thibs guy. He was a bad fit here. Like honestly how can you watch this squad and not see that? Bogs is 10x better and was starting to play really well for us. There's only so much you can do about guys getting hurt

DLeethal wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

i suspect if you take away most teams starting C, starting PF, and bench scorer in Bogs, they won't have much depth either. Especially come playoff time when rotations are shortened. Reg season we prob play Sims, Burks and Milton, but now is much harder.

Where we lost depth was the OG trade, but we'll replenish this summer with picks and FA's.

Jalen Williams - 2022 NBA draft picked 12th by OKC. NYK had the 11th pick in that draft and selected Ousmane Dieng but ultimately traded out of the draft in a salary dump. We also traded 2 2nd rd picks - 2023 & 2024.

There is no magic eraser for bad signings in the NBA. You pay eventually. Our lack of tools to build depth have caught up to us. Deuce McBribe - 2021 picked 36 was the last time we have drafted

I'm sorry, but this is what you think about your team when they are one game up in the second round of the playoffs? I'll say it again - to each their own!

Everything you do in the offseason - the draft, FA, Preseason, the trade deadline, each trade - is all in preparation for this moment - The Playoffs. I love my team, but we could have been more prepared for the playoffs in terms of our bench. We are down to 7 usable players on a roster of 15 players. I just keep pointing out all of the missed chances we had to add better depth to the roster that we missed on. Trading Obi Toppin for absolutely zero, nada, squazzole is a glaring example of a wasted opportunity to send out a young useful role player and to get a young useful role player in return. I would consider that an equal return. Gift wrapping him to the team of his choice for absolutely no return is bad look. You disagree you want to see rainbows and unicorns I get it. We are playing great basketball right now. That's great, but being down to 7 usable players, not so great.

Our bench is deep, we just are dealing with an anomaly of an injury situation this year that would throttle any team in the league. No one spends first round picks on guys who will be 3rd and 4th string players when full health. We have a bunch of tools to replenish the depth - two first round picks and the MLE and we are going to be too deep where Josh will be complaining about his mins again.

You are acting as if teams stash good players 3rd/4th string on their rosters just in case multiple guys go down at the same position. Doesn't happen.

We have 10 usable players that is not deep. 10 is bare minimum. 11or 12 I would consider deep. We trade a lottery pick -11th pick in the draft - for what was projected as a late 1st rd pick -25-30 - and 2 2nd rd picks for salary dumping Kemba Walker who we had claimed his guaranteed 74M off of waivers. I won’t mention other self inflicted moves like Evan Fournier or Nerlens Noel and Burks being resigned for two overpaid guaranteed years. I do get the Derick Rose resigning but it was more of a gift than a smart business decision.

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

agreed. Achiuwa at least has the potential to hit an outside shot and cause both Turner and KP to evacuate the paint

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

Oh man. I had it in my head that Leon Rose inherited those contracts. But they certainly re-upped these guys and signed Fournier. I'll take it as my mistake. I still don't think the lack of a healthy starting PF is reason to question the franchise level growth this team has made.

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

I'm a bit unclear on your point. In the middle of a 2nd round playoff appearance (2 years in a row - first time in ~25 years) are you going back to moves made 3-4 years ago to try and prove the FO's incompetency?

Rookie wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

I'm a bit unclear on your point. In the middle of a 2nd round playoff appearance (2 years in a row - first time in ~25 years) are you going back to moves made 3-4 years ago to try and prove the FO's incompetency?

Adding Brunson, iHart, Hart, DiVincenzo and OG were all boss moves. 2020-21 and 2021-22 were pretty bad. Short answer is I think we are still paying for the mistakes of the first two years. We have a great core but the fringes of the roster are pretty barren. Oh well. Onward and upward.

Maybe paying for mistakes, but the dividends of brilliant moves make up for it and then some.
If you take all the playoff teams and go backwards you'll conjure up "gotchas". The GSW enroute to their chip in '22 made some big bone head moves and draft picks but there they were hoisting a chip. Kemba was an opportunity. Did not work. Small price. Obi? in the moment, huge upside. Did not materialize and instead Randle became all NBA twice.

Evan? Solid move at the time. He did not fit in. He did well elsewhere, not like FO was delusional. Nerlons? Back up center pay while Mitch grew up. Selden and Samantic? Your really on that? "Gotcha"............ LOL

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

TI'm a bit unclear on your point. In the middle of a 2nd round playoff appearance (2 years in a row - first time in ~25 years) are you going back to moves made 3-4 years ago to try and prove the FO's incompetency?

Adding Brunson, iHart, Hart, DiVincenzo and OG were all boss moves. 2020-21 and 2021-22 were pretty bad. Short answer is I think we are still paying for the mistakes of the first two years. We have a great core but the fringes of the roster are pretty barren. Oh well. Onward and upward.

Every GM/FO makes mistakes.....it's how you recover or learn those mistakes that often defines success. Perhaps you can make it a bit clearer as I'm not sure how decisions made 3+ years ago impacted the fringes of the Knicks current roster.

Players in current rotation (7) - Brunson, DDV, OG, JHart, IHart, Deuce, Precious

Injured Players (3) - Randle, Mitch, Bogs

Players out of rotation (5) - Sims, Burks, Shake, Diakite, Jeffries

Players on GLeague Shuttle (3) - Brown, J Toppin, Washington

Taking injury into account - Knicks have 10 Strong Rotational players - one that could compete for the ECF and even a Title.

The next 3 have all been NBA Level Contributors- Sims, Burks and Shake

That's 13.

Are you saying that moves made in 2020-2021 should have been targeted to build the bench strength of the roster for positions 11-15 on the bench as well as 2 Way contracts? Not sure - but that would not seem to be a logical way to construct a winning roster. Roster depth for positions 11-15 only seems to be an issue because of how successful the team has been in spite of injury.
Generally teams that make it this far into the playoffs do not have injuries to their starters / Top 10 rotation to the extent the Knicks have had.

Where this all started was me saying we should have gotten an asset back for Obi. We got zero. No young rotation player in return. No usable draft pick. A future 1st, or even 2 unprotected 2nds. It was a salary dump and preferential treatment to a CAA client to deliver him to the team of his choice. Family before team