TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:
I don't have to or want to tell the players what to do because I trust their judgement- they know way more about this than I do.

You seem to think you're a mastermind on this issue, but your post above indicates the complete opposite- you don't seem to get even the basics, because you don't even understand what the fundamental issue is. Instead you seem to think the onus is on the players to apologize, pay to fix this mess and do police training.

Social change, political change isn't a science

Look at this. It's WNBA players with Jacob Blake's name front and center. With the WNBA logo not far away.

For a guy who had a warrant out for his arrest for domestic violence and sexual assault, where a woman called the police in desperation because the guy broke in, tried to steal her car and was terrified he'd hurt her/sexually assault her again. A guy previously arrested for being drunk and having a concealed firearm.

The NBA players had no plan, no discussion before, no real stated goals and no backbone ( they caved and agreed to play 24 hours later ) And centered their protest around a ****ing wife beater.

It's really not that hard. Kenosha and it's local politics and police force has no reason to give a **** what NBA players think. However if NBA players are funding the training and hiring of black officers to patrol black neighborhoods, now the NBA players have wedged their way into the politics of the police union. Now their voice is heard because then no one would have a choice. Police unions are critical and their support/concerns are big influences in on how local government operates. If NBA players help to build non profit grocery stores/pharmacies in distressed black neighborhoods, now you have a foothold into the community. Local politics has to hear the voices of it's prominent business owners. If you are running basketball camps in Kenosha, now you have pathway to the kids and the teachers and then push your influence into the teachers unions. Which are also influential in local government. Not only that, but black grocery stores give black people jobs. Giving police departments some of the resources needed to hire black cops to patrol those black neighborhoods give opportunity for young black people to have a career.

If you want policy change in a place like Kenosha, or anywhere, you are going to have a better chance to have influence when you infiltrate their police unions, their teachers unions and become a power player in the local businesses in the area. Now everyone there in local politics has no choice but to pay attention to your concerns and demands and viewpoints.

This is how the game works. You buy influence. But this pathway also CREATES JOBS AND OPPORTUNITY FOR BLACK PEOPLE. And it would be nice if some 70 year old elderly black woman on a fixed income and no car can have a grocery store within walking distance, one that won't be looted and burned down in a riot, so she can buy a little food and her medicine.

What is the fundamental issue here? There's the players side, which is what this thread is all about in the first place and there's your side. The players haven't listed any specific goals. They can influenced owners, but just because Dolan, Gail Miller, Mark Cuban, etc are billionaires doesn't mean they can snap their fingers and change public policy in a place like Kenosha. It makes no sense and it doesn't work that way.

Political change happens through financial leverage. You get this by systematically forcing the power players ( teachers unions, police unions, local businesses, etc) to all want what you want or make your interests their interests.

What's the NBA players fundamental issue? No one knows. They've listed no actual goals. And please no flash back on arenas being voting centers. That's good business by the owners. It shows the arenas are safe again for public traffic/usage. It aligns to their interests and their long term profits. But at least it's a win/win if it's a pathway to get more people to vote.

What is the fundamental issue for you? No one knows. You keep ranting for change, demanding it, but you've listed no specific goals nor any realistic pathway to get there.

If the goal is police reform, you can't go to war with the police. You can't support gutting their budget without careful thought. You can't paint them as the enemy. It will only make them bunker up and resist you even more. If NBA players want police reform, they are going to have to understand what police officers go through, how they are trained, what their conflicts are and what their needs are and then try to find middle ground. Everyone here in their working life, there are going to be excellent people at your job and a lot of average people trying to get by and yes some dip****s. That's everywhere. Should police forces do more to get rid of the dip****s? Yes. But it's not as easy as just you screaming about it. How easy is it or was it for all of you at your workplaces to get rid of those mother****ers? Nothing is ever that simple. The reality is most cops are just regular people, most of them aren't racists and looking to hurt anyone. Some bad apples don't indict the entire group. The way you and some others talk on here, it's like cops are just roaming cities executing every black man, woman and child they see. We all need cops to enforce laws in our cities. Without them it would be chaos. We specifically need good cops. And we need to eliminate dip**** cops. But the pathway to that isn't screaming without a goal. It's not painting them all as villains.

What's the alternative? More riots. Where businesses that give black people jobs in those neighborhoods are burned to the ****ing ground. Where people local to the area don't feel safe to walk around and can't find an accessible place to buy food for their kids? More people getting shot? By offering no solutions, listing no goals, refusing to even look at middle ground, that's exactly what you have chosen.

I want to look at solutions that creates more jobs and careers for black people. I want infrastructure in place to help those communities. I want fewer riots that burn down all hope in these distressed areas. I'd prefer not to see the black elderly walk 3 miles, in each direction, in a city that looks like a warzone just to get their medicine because their pharmacy was looted and torn apart. But I recognize to get that means playing a political long game that some of you don't have the stomach for because it seems too much like "white washing"

You want to rant because it makes you feel better. You trust the judgement of those NBA players because you both think the same way. No solutions. No goals. No plans. No solidarity. No logistics. Not looking at the reality of the situation. In effect, like many of these pro athletes, you are also endorsing a wife beater who likes to sexually assault women and steal their property. If that makes you feel like a hero or woke, I just feel sorry for you.

For the last time:- No... one.... is.... falling.... for.... your....pretend..... focus..... on..... Blakes...... character- we all know you'd oppose every form of BLM protest (as you have from day one) even if he was a saint. If you genuinely don't get why people are protesting over his shooting, if you genuinely don't think there's institutionalized racism despite everything you've seen and heard, and if you genuinely think the issue is 'just a few bad apples', you really have no right to be condescending people by saying you feel sorry for them.

TripleThreat wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote: The issue has never been what Blake did in the past. ..... But many of these departments need to be defunded and rebuilt.

Women control about $20 trillion in annual consumer spending, and that figure could climb as high as $28 trillion in the next five years. Their $13 trillion in total yearly earnings could reach $18 trillion in the same period. In aggregate, women represent a growth market bigger than China and India combined—more than twice as big, in fact. Given those numbers, it would be foolish to ignore or underestimate the female consumer. Women make the decision in the purchases of 94% of home furnishings…92% of vacations…91% of homes… 60% of automobiles…51% of consumer electronics. The purchasing power of women in the U.S. ranges from $5 trillion to $15 trillion annually. Approximately 40% of U.S. working women now out-earn their husbands. 74.9% of women identified themselves as the primary shoppers for their households. Women make 90% of household healthcare decisions.

Women Make Up:
> 47.2% of major league soccer fans
> 46.5% of MLB fans
> 43.2% NFL fans
> 40.8% of NHL fans
> 37% of NBA fans

Politics follows the money. If you want what amounts to reform in public policy, you'll need financial leverage. You will also need to reach an audience both inside and OUTSIDE the NBA fandom.

By choosing to align with Jacob Blake, the NBA players and NBPA chose to alienate women in general. And to alienate the financial power associated with them. They could have picked anyone. Its not like shootings ( sadly) were going to suddenly stop anytime soon if we consider across the entire US. The players could have aligned with a different case with better optics to reach a specific goal. The only consolation that the NBPA might have is the WNBA managed to do something even more idiotic. ( A league full of woman screaming female empowerment for 20 plus years decides to put the name of a ****wit known for domestic violence and sexual assault on T shirts and cancel games no one is watching anyway)

Wide scale defunding of the police across the US is not going to happen. If you want to believe so, that's on you. But if you have an idea how that could actually work in reality, I'm all ears.

I'll pose the same thing I posed to smackeddog, what are your specific goals over these issues and what would you do specifically to achieve them?

Women aren't some monolithic group who can be labeled and predicated by some marketing studies, many of which are lacking. We have women, who knowingly voted for Trump even though they knew he has very misogynistic views and has trail of sexual misconduct allegations following him spanning decades. The same could be said to a certain degree about Joe Biden and Bill Clinton. There are women who may view Blake as a scum bag and there are women who may view Blake as their son. There are women who may see themselves as the ones getting gunned down. That still doesn't change the real issue. A man was executed on camera by law enforcement.

No, I don't think it's a realistic vision to see every police department in the country defunded. I'm not even saying every police station in the country needs to be defunded. But there are clearly departments with deep issues that can't be addressed without some form of restructuring.

Instead of having players throw money at more training, why not have them use those funds for the establishment of more citizen review boards for police conduct? Police budgets are already bloated in many locales. If they need more funding, I'd ask them what the hell have they been doing with all they've been given. Did they really need that D.A.R.E car?

I would take it further and say these review boards should have the ability to determine if officer's with long-standing issues with the public get to continue their privilege of continued qualified immunity.

I'd like to get rid of qualified immunity altogether, but there's a lot of things I want. But what sense does it make that guys like Derek Chauvin, whose career has shown a continued pattern of recklessness, continue to receive this protection? Why should taxpayers continue to pay for these eff ups? Once they reach a certain threshold of phuchery, they should be required to pay liability insurance, with rates increasing each additional time they screwed up. This additional financial load would eventually force the screw ups to search for other employment.

I'd rather see federal funds tied to initiatives like this than some arbitrary crime stat that could easily be fudged due to lack of oversight.

At what point do cops get penalized when their body cams accidentally "shut off." There should be stiffer penalties for this and can be addressed at the local level.

Push for clear federal guidelines on when and where it is acceptable to use a firearm. I would think this had been made clear in most PDs, but maybe I'm wrong.

Clearer federal guidelines on the forms of physical use that are acceptable when restraining suspects. There is already information out there but maybe it needs to be reinforced?

I'd also like to see better guideline for the use of "nonlethal" munitions for the use of crowd control.

Ban the use of ketamine on "suspects." Cops are cops and medical personnel are medical personnel. Cops should not have any say in the use of any volatile sedatives.

Cops should be used sparingly in any "emotional distress" calls. I'd prefer if they were handled by trained civilians or, in the case of extreme instances, LEO who are trained specifically for these calls. I understand things can go FUBAR and you need to call in SWAT. But we've also seen times where the escalation was not appropriate for the situation.

I'd like to see a lot more things done, that would require more political capital. Even the above ideas would require a lot. Maybe one day.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Instead of having players throw money at more training, why not have them use those funds for the establishment of more citizen review boards for police conduct? Police budgets are already bloated in many locales. If they need more funding, I'd ask them what the hell have they been doing with all they've been given. Did they really need that D.A.R.E car?

I would take it further and say these review boards should have the ability to determine if officer's with long-standing issues with the public get to continue their privilege of continued qualified immunity.... they should be required to pay liability insurance, with rates increasing each additional time they screwed up. This additional financial load would eventually force the screw ups to search for other employment.

I'd rather see federal funds tied to initiatives like this than some arbitrary crime stat that could easily be fudged due to lack of oversight.

At what point do cops get penalized when their body cams accidentally "shut off." There should be stiffer penalties for this and can be addressed at the local level.

Push for clear federal guidelines on when and where it is acceptable to use a firearm. I would think this had been made clear in most PDs, but maybe I'm wrong.

Clearer federal guidelines on the forms of physical use that are acceptable when restraining suspects. There is already information out there but maybe it needs to be reinforced?

I'd also like to see better guideline for the use of "nonlethal" munitions for the use of crowd control.

Ban the use of ketamine on "suspects." Cops are cops and medical personnel are medical personnel. Cops should not have any say in the use of any volatile sedatives.

Cops should be used sparingly in any "emotional distress" calls. I'd prefer if they were handled by trained civilians or, in the case of extreme instances, LEO who are trained specifically for these calls. I understand things can go FUBAR and you need to call in SWAT. But we've also seen times where the escalation was not appropriate for the situation.

These are all thoughtful points. Thank you for sharing them.

OK, let's start with one. If you were an NBA player pushing for public policy reform for law enforcement, particularly in instances dealing with the African American community, how would you create these civilian review boards? Who would be on them? What would their term limits be? Should they be appointed or elected? How would they be cycled on and off of this committee? What would be the functional limits of their evaluations/decisions?

It's a more than fair point, are police departments using their existing resources in the most efficient way possible .We talk about it all the time with the Knicks using their cap space and how to get the most value out of their draft picks, this is no different.

So let's start to unpack this.

BigDaddyG wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Instead of having players throw money at more training, why not have them use those funds for the establishment of more citizen review boards for police conduct? Police budgets are already bloated in many locales. If they need more funding, I'd ask them what the hell have they been doing with all they've been given. Did they really need that D.A.R.E car?

I would take it further and say these review boards should have the ability to determine if officer's with long-standing issues with the public get to continue their privilege of continued qualified immunity.... they should be required to pay liability insurance, with rates increasing each additional time they screwed up. This additional financial load would eventually force the screw ups to search for other employment.

I'd rather see federal funds tied to initiatives like this than some arbitrary crime stat that could easily be fudged due to lack of oversight.

At what point do cops get penalized when their body cams accidentally "shut off." There should be stiffer penalties for this and can be addressed at the local level.

Push for clear federal guidelines on when and where it is acceptable to use a firearm. I would think this had been made clear in most PDs, but maybe I'm wrong.

Clearer federal guidelines on the forms of physical use that are acceptable when restraining suspects. There is already information out there but maybe it needs to be reinforced?

I'd also like to see better guideline for the use of "nonlethal" munitions for the use of crowd control.

Ban the use of ketamine on "suspects." Cops are cops and medical personnel are medical personnel. Cops should not have any say in the use of any volatile sedatives.

Cops should be used sparingly in any "emotional distress" calls. I'd prefer if they were handled by trained civilians or, in the case of extreme instances, LEO who are trained specifically for these calls. I understand things can go FUBAR and you need to call in SWAT. But we've also seen times where the escalation was not appropriate for the situation.

These are all thoughtful points. Thank you for sharing them.

OK, let's start with one. If you were an NBA player pushing for public policy reform for law enforcement, particularly in instances dealing with the African American community, how would you create these civilian review boards? Who would be on them? What would their term limits be? Should they be appointed or elected? How would they be cycled on and off of this committee? What would be the functional limits of their evaluations/decisions?

It's a more than fair point, are police departments using their existing resources in the most efficient way possible .We talk about it all the time with the Knicks using their cap space and how to get the most value out of their draft picks, this is no different.

So let's start to unpack this.

I would set up a fund to get these committees off the ground. Ideally, the formation of these boards would similar to the way many localities set up their school boards. A qualified legal professional (superintendent) who has an understanding of the precents, liabilities and state laws involved with each complaint. The board would be headed by 8 or 9 members elected by their respective communities and presided over by a board president. I'd prefer if these boards were set up at the municipal level, but County level would be fine.

I realize that's a huge ask for many communities that would have to deal with voting machines, scheduling of elections, overtime etc.

I'd at the very least, I'd settle for a system similar to San Francisco's oversight committee. I'm not sure I'd burden them with the responsibilities of budget auditing. That should be the job of the of a city's mayor and it's council.

https://www.nacole.org/agency_profile_san_francisco

You’re getting sucked into his game- in his world he can never be wrong and is thinking three levels above anyone else. All he’ll do is complement you for engaging in his game then point out how you’re wrong each time and ask you to try again, like he’s Socrates and you’re one of his students- it’s very annoyingly condescending!

martin wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Instead of having players throw money at more training, why not have them use those funds for the establishment of more citizen review boards for police conduct? Police budgets are already bloated in many locales. If they need more funding, I'd ask them what the hell have they been doing with all they've been given. Did they really need that D.A.R.E car?

I would take it further and say these review boards should have the ability to determine if officer's with long-standing issues with the public get to continue their privilege of continued qualified immunity.... they should be required to pay liability insurance, with rates increasing each additional time they screwed up. This additional financial load would eventually force the screw ups to search for other employment.

I'd rather see federal funds tied to initiatives like this than some arbitrary crime stat that could easily be fudged due to lack of oversight.

At what point do cops get penalized when their body cams accidentally "shut off." There should be stiffer penalties for this and can be addressed at the local level.

Push for clear federal guidelines on when and where it is acceptable to use a firearm. I would think this had been made clear in most PDs, but maybe I'm wrong.

Clearer federal guidelines on the forms of physical use that are acceptable when restraining suspects. There is already information out there but maybe it needs to be reinforced?

I'd also like to see better guideline for the use of "nonlethal" munitions for the use of crowd control.

Ban the use of ketamine on "suspects." Cops are cops and medical personnel are medical personnel. Cops should not have any say in the use of any volatile sedatives.

Cops should be used sparingly in any "emotional distress" calls. I'd prefer if they were handled by trained civilians or, in the case of extreme instances, LEO who are trained specifically for these calls. I understand things can go FUBAR and you need to call in SWAT. But we've also seen times where the escalation was not appropriate for the situation.

These are all thoughtful points. Thank you for sharing them.

OK, let's start with one. If you were an NBA player pushing for public policy reform for law enforcement, particularly in instances dealing with the African American community, how would you create these civilian review boards? Who would be on them? What would their term limits be? Should they be appointed or elected? How would they be cycled on and off of this committee? What would be the functional limits of their evaluations/decisions?

It's a more than fair point, are police departments using their existing resources in the most efficient way possible .We talk about it all the time with the Knicks using their cap space and how to get the most value out of their draft picks, this is no different.

So let's start to unpack this.

I would set up a fund to get these committees off the ground. Ideally, the formation of these boards would similar to the way many localities set up their school boards. A qualified legal professional (superintendent) who has an understanding of the precents, liabilities and state laws involved with each complaint. The board would be headed by 8 or 9 members elected by their respective communities and presided over by a board president. I'd prefer if these boards were set up at the municipal level, but County level would be fine.

I realize that's a huge ask for many communities that would have to deal with voting machines, scheduling of elections, overtime etc.

I'd at the very least, I'd settle for a system similar to San Francisco's oversight committee. I'm not sure I'd burden them with the responsibilities of budget auditing. That should be the job of the of a city's mayor and it's council.

https://www.nacole.org/agency_profile_san_francisco

You’re getting sucked into his game- in his world he can never be wrong and is thinking three levels above anyone else. All he’ll do is complement you for engaging in his game then point out how you’re wrong each time and ask you to try again.

I haven't followed every back and forth here and I'll respond in a vacuum. At some point you do need to just engage the content of the post that is there.

TT is talking about solutions and best way to attach problem. Maybe it's not the acknowledgement you are looking for but the above seems more like an emotional response more than anything.

I accept it’s an emotional response, it’s an emotional issue and I do accept I struggle to have a cool, logical detachment to it. At the same time there have been some clear digs by TT in earlier posts which riled me up (though to be fair, I was already riled up) which you’ve probably missed (I don’t expect you to read through it all- there are better and more entertaining things you have to do with your time!. If you accept him as genuine (and he might be, tone can be difficult to gauge online), then I probably come across as unreasonable.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-usa-los-angeles-idUSKBN25S606?taid=5f4f2a5899d1fe00011e201e&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter&utm_source=reddit.com

L.A. sheriff's deputies fatally shoot Black man after suspected bike violation
Lucy Nicholson, Steve Gorman

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Black man who was stopped on his bicycle for an alleged “vehicle code” violation was shot to death by two Los Angeles sheriff’s deputies, who fired 15 to 20 rounds after the man punched one officer and dropped a pistol on the ground, authorities said on Tuesday.

Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism after mother calls for help

Golda Barton said she called police and asked for a crisis intervention team because her son was having a mental breakdown.

The mother said she told officers that her son, who has Asperger's, needed to be transported to the hospital for treatment. "This is how to deal with people with mental health issues. So, you call them, and they're supposed to come out and be able to deescalate a situation using the most minimal force possible," Barton told KUTV.

"I said, 'He's unarmed, he doesn't have anything, he just gets mad and he starts yelling and screaming. He's a kid, he's trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate,'" Barton said.

BigDaddyG wrote:WTF?!?!!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-shoot-13-year-old-boy-autism-salt-lake-city-mother-called-for-help/

Police shoot 13-year-old boy with autism after mother calls for help

Golda Barton said she called police and asked for a crisis intervention team because her son was having a mental breakdown.

The mother said she told officers that her son, who has Asperger's, needed to be transported to the hospital for treatment. "This is how to deal with people with mental health issues. So, you call them, and they're supposed to come out and be able to deescalate a situation using the most minimal force possible," Barton told KUTV.

"I said, 'He's unarmed, he doesn't have anything, he just gets mad and he starts yelling and screaming. He's a kid, he's trying to get attention, he doesn't know how to regulate,'" Barton said.

It’s ridiculous cops are sent in to deal with people having a mental health crisis, they should at least have to take some sort of mental health professional with them (Although there is a lot of racism within mental health services too). Add in racism to being completely unsuitably trained, and it’s lethal

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1308833911255044104

Just a few bad apples, no systemic problems at all!

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1308833911255044104

Just a few bad apples, no systemic problems at all!

I wonder how much of the time evidence was presented to the grand jury. If only the LPD had some way to record their activities during suck warrants

I am more interested in learning how the Jurors were selected.