SkyWalker wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:It sounded to me like Larry was trying to say more Blacks needed to OWN teams and thus have more power and control over conditions and treatment. I doubt that he was calling for simply a league with just black players. No one is that stupid. He just did a bad job of expressing what he was trying to say I think.

Race is always a touchy subject. It may sound crazy but back when segregation forced Blacks to own their own businesses in every area, they were doing very well. Just look at how things turned out in Tulsa and what they called "Black Wall Street".
The Dollar turned over within that Black community more than 6 times before leaving the community. They had professionals of all kinds, owned hotels, movie theaters, Air Planes!!! It was of course destroyed by racist Whites but it was a very successful community that was built on self reliance. Every since then Blacks have scratched out a very tough life at the bottom of just about every metric of American Society. If you don't know go look up "Black Wall Street".

I feel like I knew what he was trying to say and if that were the case, I'd agree with him. Black people need to do a better job of building wealth and in keeping as much of it as possible within our communities. There is so much talent that exists and has existed, yet others have been the ones who have profiteered from it.

I remember reading a statistic that articulated for every dollar spent by an African American, only $0.10 remains in the hands of another African American. Meanwhile, for every dollar a Jew spends, $0.70 remains in the hands of another Jew. That has to be the model we follow as a fellow minority and the only way to accomplish that is to build a better business infrastructure that is also more mainstream. Money talks and is exactly why narratives develop of us that are often adversarial and antagonistic. For example, when Blacks access social programs, they are perceived as "takers", "lazy", etc. AUIPAC lobbies our government to send billions of dollars to Isreal, the most of any country, and all they are are "God's people" and "loyal friends" who share a mutual interest with our great nation. The point is that making money in the right industries is key to all of this.

Back to Larry, he needs to realize that he's in a public forum and express himself accordingly. I'm sure he's going to have to issue an apology and he better articulate himself in it.

so america is to pro jewish and jews don't share their money with non jews?

I would love to see where you read that statistic about jews? How can they possibly trace such a thing?

1. Half of Black Americans Born Poor Stay Poor

Upward mobility from the bottom of the income distribution is much less likely for black than white Americans: 51% of the black Americans born into the lowest fifth of the earnings distribution remain there at age 40:

2. Most Black Middle Class Kids Are Downwardly Mobile

Downward intergenerational social mobility from the middle to the bottom is much more common among Black Americans. Seven out of ten black Americans born into the middle quintile fall into one of the two quintiles below as adults. In some ways, this is an even more depressing fact than the poor rates of upward mobility. Even black Americans who make it to the middle class are likely to see their kids fall down the ladder:

3. Black Wealth Barely Exists

Race gaps in wealth – already wide – widened further during the Great Recession. The median wealth of white households is now 13 times greater than for black households – the largest gap in a quarter century, according to analysis by the Pew Research Center. Black median wealth almost halved during the recession, falling from $19,200 in 2007 to $11,000 in 2013:

4. Most Black Families Headed by Single Parent

Black children are much more likely to be raised in a single-parent household, and as our own research suggests, family structure can play a large role in a child’s chance of success in all stages of life:

5. Black Students Attend Worse Schools

The school system remains highly segregated by race and economic status: black students make up 16 percent of the public school population, but the average black student attends a school that’s 50 percent black. Our colleague Jonathan Rothwell shows that the average black student also attends a school at the 37th percentile for test score results whereas the average white student attends a school in the 60th percentile:

There are race gaps in almost every conceivable social and economic dimension, many of which we have discussed on these pages before: incarceration, early learning, parenting, schooling, attitudinal racism, employment – the list goes on. There has been progress, too, of course. But one thing is clear. An inescapable requirement for building an opportunity society is improving the life chances of black Americans.

mreinman wrote:

SkyWalker wrote:I would love to see where you read that statistic about jews? How can they possibly trace such a thing?

Nard stated it. I questioned it as well. I have no idea how that was quantified, it seems like something that mr bigot/Louis Farakhan would say.

The dollar circulation ethnic disparity thing I've been hearing since the 90s in one form or another — mostly in terms of times circulates, although there seems to be a form where it imagines it in terms of hours/days spent in the community. It feels correct to me, but you guys' comments got me thinking: maybe that's just some stereotypes talking. How would they be able to track this — outside of some "Where's George" type of experiment.

So I did some searching and found an interesting article from TruthBeTold.news, which appears to be a fact-checking website out of Howard University's journalism school. Seems legit.

Does A Dollar Spent In The Black Community Really Stay There For Only Six Hours?
http://truthbetold.news/2015/12/does-a-dollar-spent-in-the-black-community-really-stay-there-for-only-six-hours/

By Brookie Madison

Two weeks ago, journalist Roland Martin, host of NewsOne Now, cited a figure that has often been used to show how little blacks spend in their neighborhoods compared to other racial and ethnic groups.

The lifespan of a dollar in the Asian community is 28 days, in the Jewish community the lifespan of a dollar is 19 days and the lifespan in the African-American community is approximately six hours, Martin said during his news talk show on the black-owned cable network TV One.

Maggie Anderson, a guest on the show and author of “Our Black Year: One Family’s Quest to Buy Black in America’s Racially Divided Economy,” which was published in 2012, nodded in agreement.

Anderson, a proponent of blacks spending more with black-owned business, has often used the “six hours” figure. In a series of talks around the country and in her book, she uses the figure to argue that African Americans need to do more to support black-owned businesses.

Anderson isn’t alone. The “six hours” circulation statistic is an often-cited figure by a wide variety of individuals, organizations and news outlets.

The figures have been attributed to various sources including the NAACP and the Selig Center for Economic Growth at the University of Georgia.

But does a dollar spent by black people really stay in the community for only six hours?

The Facts

To fact-check the statistic, TruthBeTold.news tried to track down the source of this widely cited figure.

Several federal government agencies produce data on black spending patterns.

The Federal Reserve Bank publishes a survey of consumer finance that contains information on consumer spending patterns, but it does not contain the level of detail that would show how often a dollar would circulate in a given community. The Bureau of Labor Statistics also produces reports on black spending patterns. But this data also does not show how often money circulates within a neighborhood.

Other agencies like the Small Business Administration keep track of black businesses. But the SBA also does not compile figures that would allow a comparison of how often money circulates within a community.

Private research organizations such as Nielsen and the Chicago-based Target Market News also track black spending patterns.

The available data shows that 43 million blacks in the United States have about $1.1 trillion in spending power. Additionally, the most recent government data shows there were 2.6 million black or African American-owned firms nationally in 2012, up from 1.9 million or 34.5 percent in 2007.

But TruthBeTold.news was unable to locate any agencies or private research firms with data that show how long money circulates within a community.

TruthBeTold.news also asked for the source of the six-hour timeframe mentioned on the NAACP website in an article posted on Sept. 24, 2012.

In an email, Nicole Kenney, the writer of the NAACP article, said she used several sources, including Maggie Anderson’s 2012 book and data from Nielsen and the Minority Business and Development Agency.

TruthBeTold.news also contacted the Selig Center about the figures attributed to the economic research unit: “Money circulates zero to one time within the black community, compared to the more than six times it circulates in the Latino community, nine times in the Asian community and unlimited amount of times within the white community.”

In an email, Jeffrey M. Humphreys, director of the center, said: “I’ve never heard that. It’s not from our center, and it does not sound accurate, but I’ve got no idea what the actual number are.”

The data appears to have first been used in a book by author Brooke Stephens, a financial planner. The book, “Talking Dollars and Making Sense: A Wealth Building Guide for African-Americans,” was written in 1996 and cites the six-hour figure on page 18 of the book.

There is no reference to the original source of the data or the study. Stephens attributes the data to a “John Wray,” who is described as an “economic development specialist” in Washington. There is no other mention of Wray or the study in the book.

TruthBeTold.news reached out to Stephens, who lives in Brooklyn, N.Y., for more information about Wray and the study.

In an interview, Stephens said Wray and a co-author, Lee Green, did the study over a six-month period in 1992, possibly through a nonprofit organization that might no longer exist. She did not remember the name of the report and could not provide any information about Wray or Green, beyond saying that Wray might have taught at Howard University in 1993. The human resource office at Howard said it could not find a reference to a Jim or John Wray. In addition, TruthBeTold.news was unable to locate Lee Green or any studies co-authored by him.

There was no media coverage of the study that can be found in the LexisNexis research database, and the only reference to the study appears to be in Stephens’ book.

TruthBeTold also reached out to Maggie Anderson to see if she remembered the name of the study or could provide any information about Wray.

“I know Brooke Stephens. I know about the statistic,” Anderson said. “I did run into her phenomenal research and the study about the economic lifespan of a dollar in different ethnic groups.”

Anderson attributes the six-hour figure in “Our Black Year” to Brooke Stephens’ book. “I published her findings in my book, ‘Our Black Year,’ and I refer to it whenever I speak and interview. I have been promoting that six-hour statistic quite heavily over the past six years.”

She continues to say how it is the foundation of her work and research commissioned for her year-long Empowerment Experiment through Steven Rogers, a professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University.

“Our Kellogg study proved that less than 3 percent of our $1 trillion in buying power makes it back to our community via our spending with our businesses and the companies that engage our businesses,” she said.

Anderson said the study also found “that if the middle-class black consumers were to spend a little more — 7 percent more, just 10 percent of their spending — with black firms and the mainstream firms that engage them, we can create almost 1 million jobs.” She also includes the six-hour figure and the Kellogg findings in an essay in the National Urban League’s 2014 State of Black America report.

“Brooke Stephens’ statistic about the six hours shows why we need to do more to support our businesses and reverse the exploitation of our consumers and the socio-economic crises our neighborhoods endure,” Anderson said.

TruthBeTold.news also reached out to other black economic development advocates who have cited the figure and while many of them had heard of the numbers, not one had actually seen the study that produced them.

“I’ve been trying to kill this thing for years,” said Ken Smikle, president of Target Market News, a Chicago-based research firm that tracks black spending patterns. “It’s just not true.”

Smikle, who has produced an annual report called The Buying Power of Black America for nearly two decades, disputes the notion that the circulation of money can be tracked in a community.

“There is no scientific way to do that,” Smikle said. “I mean, how would you do it?”

Economists contacted by TruthBeTold.news to review the figures agree.

“It’s what I consider an urban myth,” said William Spriggs, a former labor department official in the Obama Administration, who is now chief economist at the AFL-CIO union. Spriggs also teaches economics at Howard University.

Spriggs said a red flag for him was the mention of dollars circulating in the Jewish community for 19 days.

“What makes me suspicious is that it has economic data based on religion when the federal government doesn’t collect any information by religion,” Spriggs said. “Where would you get that from?”

“When you say Asian communities you’re talking about a very diverse population that includes Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and they are all different and not a monolithic community. It would be a mistake to try to include all of these different people under one umbrella to talk about spending in communities,” he said.

He added: “And even if you surveyed customers about their spending with business, how would you know the religion of the person who owned the business? If I shop at Macy’s, I don’t know the religion of the person who owns it.”

Justin Wolfers, an economics professor at the University of Michigan, cited other problems with the figures used by Stephens and others.

First, there is no clear definition of community. “Are we talking about specific neighborhoods or as a whole?” Wolfers asked.

Secondly, he points out, like Spriggs, that the federal government does not collect economic information by religion nor does it collect hourly economic activity.

“It seems highly improbable that you could get this data the way it’s described,” Wolfers said. “The inclusion of religion data alone makes me question the figures.”

Truth Be Told

The claim that a dollar circulates in the black community for only six hours cannot be substantiated.

The federal government does not produce data that would allow such a comparison.

In addition, economists contacted by TruthBeTold.news said some of the data cited, such as information about dollars circulating in the Jewish community, is questionable because the federal government does not collect information by religion. And researchers would be unable to get the information accurately from a survey of consumers.

The earliest source of the statistic appears to be a book that is nearly 20 years old. The book also never mentions the name of the study nor provides any information about the author.

Economic experts agree that blacks may spend little of their estimated $1.1 trillion in buying power with black business. And they agree that efforts like Anderson’s to patronize those businesses are laudable goals. But they add that proponents should stop using the six-hour figure because, while it is shocking, it cannot be verified.

“I understand where people who use this figure are coming from and I don’t want to downplay the issue, but you don’t solve the problem by using questionable data,” said Spriggs, the Howard economist.

Brookie Madison is a staff writer for TruthBeTold.news.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

arkrud wrote:Government and Union jobs are mostly a form of hidden entitlements.

Please clarify what government and union jobs you are talking about, why you are lumping them in with each other, and what you mean by "hidden entitlements".

This is well documented that productivity of unionized and government workers is much lover that in private non-unionized sector of employment. You can look it up but its a common knowledge already. For example you can read this article about how government was reduced greatly in Estonia. Its a small country so it is easie to accomplish but idea is same.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/07/economist-explains-21

I am not talking about services like military, law enforcement, and such, but even they are more efficient when utilize private contacting.

arkrud wrote:For the most part they are not needed or can be replaced by automation and computerization.

"Most" means more than 50%. Please demonstrate this with some facts or sources how the majority of government and union jobs can be eliminated or replaced via automation, if that is what you are saying.

I would estimate abort 80% workers can be outsourced and 10% replaced with high end professionals

arkrud wrote:The support provided by feds to minorities is as Social Contract.

What exactly makes up this "support" being provided, who are the "minorities" you speak of, and what is this "Social Contract"? And how does this assertion follow from the ones regarding unions & gov't jobs that immediately preceded it?

I am reflecting on a couple of issues discussed in the thread.
It is related to the previous point as entitlement (direct and hidden) are used to help disadvantaged population groups and individuals.
Minorities are all groups who separate them-self culturally from mainstream society. Our country recognized this self-determination and helping to facilitate it with the condition that other groups and people interest and freedoms will not be affected.

arkrud wrote:Government on behalf of the people expect those who are getting helped to behave accordingly.
And when they not it comes at misbehaved with disproportional enforcement.
Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast.

I don't follow. Are you putting police brutality as the unfortunate but expected remainder of some socio-economic-political equation, with the current rates of government and union employment somehow culpable?

You seem to do this, making connections between a lot of concepts you haven't explained, but seem you get away with it because you say it cryptically and with conviction.

Because by the time a poster questions you on just one of these, you springboard onto something else. I'm wondering if you are more style than substance.

Everything in the complex life of the society is connected.
Low enforcement officer are not robots. They are in the heart of serious conflicts between people and well aware about who is getting help and how this help is used or misused. Some are fine with it but some are not and consider the "social contract is broken" and act accordingly. This is bad but gives a hint about what happening. Same goes back at police officers who instead of protecting people starting to harm them. This also breaks social contract and leads to divided society.
Everything in the world has logical base and reason. However it is not easy to accept it in many cases.

In total there are more White people taking advantage of government help. It's one of those truths that the Right tends to purposefully lie about.

Nationally, most of the people who receive benefits from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are white. According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.

Just find it funny how the Republicans always talk about the welfare state and THEY are the ones who use Government assistance the most.

The graphic says: "Of the 32 states which receive more than they contribute, 27 states (84%) are REPUBLICAN. Of the 18 states which contribute more than they receive, 14 states (78%) are DEMOCRATIC."

DrAlphaeus wrote:

nixluva wrote:Minorities are mostly gathered in the Cities. A lot of this was due to economic reasons and safety. The problem is that they were met with resistance when they arrived in northern cities and mob violence. Then they Redlined the Minorities into ghettos and separate neighborhoods. It's not that minorities wanted to live separately, that was imposed on them for the most part. In some cases ethnic groups bunched together for social reasons as well.

In total there are more White people taking advantage of government help. It's one of those truths that the Right tends to purposefully lie about.

Nationally, most of the people who receive benefits from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are white. According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html

Just find it funny how the Republicans always talk about the welfare state and THEY are the ones who use Government assistance the most.

The graphic says: "Of the 32 states which receive more than they contribute, 27 states (84%) are REPUBLICAN. Of the 18 states which contribute more than they receive, 14 states (78%) are DEMOCRATIC."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/

But the way to spin these stats with the opposite intent is to 1) point out the discrepancy per capita and 2) note the large Black populations in the South as a reason why those states are net drags.

Not necessarily my opinion, just seems like the easiest lines of attack on what you are saying.

Redlining however doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should. The general public is way too ignorant about what effect that had — and is still having.

Oh i'm aware of just what you're saying and those same people don't realize how much of an impact poor whites in rural areas and Appalachia plus farmers are drawing on Government assistance. It's not just Welfare but Farm Subsidies etc.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

nixluva wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

nixluva wrote:Minorities are mostly gathered in the Cities. A lot of this was due to economic reasons and safety. The problem is that they were met with resistance when they arrived in northern cities and mob violence. Then they Redlined the Minorities into ghettos and separate neighborhoods. It's not that minorities wanted to live separately, that was imposed on them for the most part. In some cases ethnic groups bunched together for social reasons as well.

In total there are more White people taking advantage of government help. It's one of those truths that the Right tends to purposefully lie about.

Nationally, most of the people who receive benefits from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program are white. According to 2013 data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which administers the program, 40.2 percent of SNAP recipients are white, 25.7 percent are black, 10.3 percent are Hispanic, 2.1 percent are Asian and 1.2 percent are Native American.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html

Just find it funny how the Republicans always talk about the welfare state and THEY are the ones who use Government assistance the most.

The graphic says: "Of the 32 states which receive more than they contribute, 27 states (84%) are REPUBLICAN. Of the 18 states which contribute more than they receive, 14 states (78%) are DEMOCRATIC."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/

But the way to spin these stats with the opposite intent is to 1) point out the discrepancy per capita and 2) note the large Black populations in the South as a reason why those states are net drags.

Not necessarily my opinion, just seems like the easiest lines of attack on what you are saying.

Redlining however doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should. The general public is way too ignorant about what effect that had — and is still having.

Oh i'm aware of just what you're saying and those same people don't realize how much of an impact poor whites in rural areas and Appalachia plus farmers are drawing on Government assistance. It's not just Welfare but Farm Subsidies etc.

This reminds me of this article I read a while ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html?_r=0

IMO some of the communities I try to help are dealing with long term dysfunction. Young mothers having babies, young fathers going to prison, drug abuse and lack of education. When you have a huge group of people in that situation it's hard to overcome that environment. IMO hundreds of years of intentional oppression to keep a large group uneducated and dependent, as an agricultural workforce has had a very bad impact. Broken families aren't a great breeding ground for upward mobility.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

arkrud wrote:"Government and Union jobs are mostly a form of hidden entitlements."

Please clarify what government and union jobs you are talking about, why you are lumping them in with each other, and what you mean by "hidden entitlements".

This is well documented that productivity of unionized and government workers is much lover that in private non-unionized sector of employment. You can look it up but its a common knowledge already. For example you can read this article about how government was reduced greatly in Estonia. Its a small country so it is easie to accomplish but idea is same.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/07/economist-explains-21

I am not talking about services like military, law enforcement, and such, but even they are more efficient when utilize private contacting.

If this productivity dip for US gov't/union workers is so "well documented", I'll wait for you to share relevant data with us, instead of extrapolating Estonian economics to the US, if you don't mind. Like the Dollar Circulation thing discussed above, just because it feels like the truth to you, doesn't make it so. Still didn't answer what is a "hidden" entitlement or why gov't jobs and union jobs in the private sector belong in the same bucket.

And why exclude military and law enforcement? You could argue that War is the classic way governments use jobs for social and economic control. If the only expenditure is the lives of young men, you could argue that's a bonus, since it is men in that age group who commit crime more than anyone else anyway. But in any case, you prefer Mercenaries over Marines?

arkrud wrote:For the most part they are not needed or can be replaced by automation and computerization.

"Most" means more than 50%. Please demonstrate this with some facts or sources how the majority of government and union jobs can be eliminated or replaced via automation, if that is what you are saying.

I would estimate abort 80% workers can be outsourced and 10% replaced with high end professionals

Estimated based on what? Your gut? The eye test at the Post Office? Let me see some advanced stats or at least more fleshed out train of thought. And by outsourced, do you actually mean eliminated or sent out of the country?

arkrud wrote:The support provided by feds to minorities is as Social Contract.

What exactly makes up this "support" being provided, who are the "minorities" you speak of, and what is this "Social Contract"? And how does this assertion follow from the ones regarding unions & gov't jobs that immediately preceded it?

I am reflecting on a couple of issues discussed in the thread.
It is related to the previous point as entitlement (direct and hidden) are used to help disadvantaged population groups and individuals.
Minorities are all groups who separate them-self culturally from mainstream society. Our country recognized this self-determination and helping to facilitate it with the condition that other groups and people interest and freedoms will not be affected.

I'm still not clear what you mean by entitlements. Not just Social Security and Medicare can be counted as entitlements — which is what most people who talk about entitlements speak of. Certainly never heard gov't/union jobs writ large put in that category. And entitlements aren't simply and solely something that's for ethnic minorities. Public education, unemployment compensation, agriculture subsidies all are types of entitlements. And I have to argue about the "separate [themselves] culturally from mainstream society" definition. That is a very loaded, subjective, definition of an ethnic minority. I suppose farmers are a minority under your definition though. Separating themselves with those noisy tractors.

arkrud wrote:Government on behalf of the people expect those who are getting helped to behave accordingly.
And when they not it comes at misbehaved with disproportional enforcement.
Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast.

I don't follow. Are you putting police brutality as the unfortunate but expected remainder of some socio-economic-political equation, with the current rates of government and union employment somehow culpable?

You seem to do this, making connections between a lot of concepts you haven't explained, but seem you get away with it because you say it cryptically and with conviction.

Because by the time a poster questions you on just one of these, you springboard onto something else. I'm wondering if you are more style than substance.

Everything in the complex life of the society is connected.
Low enforcement officer are not robots. They are in the heart of serious conflicts between people and well aware about who is getting help and how this help is used or misused. Some are fine with it but some are not and consider the "social contract is broken" and act accordingly. This is bad but gives a hint about what happening. Same goes back at police officers who instead of protecting people starting to harm them. This also breaks social contract and leads to divided society.
Everything in the world has logical base and reason. However it is not easy to accept it in many cases.

So some cops are trigger happy because they resent the citizens they are to protect and serve are getting WIC checks? I really don't see the logic of your point. Even as an amateur armchair psychologist, you are losing me here. Just because I don't accept your words doesn't mean I'm not grasping your great wisdom. Maybe your ideas aren't as good as you think they are, or if they are, you really don't know how to explain them. But feel free to try again.

Thank God farmers only break the social contract with their farm animals behind barnyard doors, or else those corn subsidies will bring on police brutality on their heads. Right?

I agree with you on the subject that my opinion mostly based on fell and life experience so it is subjective.
We can lookup some statistics but one can find statistics which will prove almost any point of view.
I do not see any issues in providing support for people who cannot earn enough money for decent living by any means.
But I think it will be most efficient juts provide cash and services directly without creating fictional infrastructure for it.
May be I am wrong and psychological factor of getting resources for "some job done" is really important. But not for me.
I am familiar with entitlements system as it used by my parents who came to US at old age and without any assets or money.
So after they became US citizens they get subsidized housing, food-stemps, SSI cache, Medicare/Medicaid, and other minor help.
I was helping them with the process and the process is completely race-neutral.
I cannot see how any US citizen cannot get this help unless they do not aware how to proceed with the paperwork.
Our society is reach enough to provide all people who cannot or don't want to work with 15-20K per year to have reasonable leaving standards. But if some people wont not only bread but also butter they need to work for this themselves.