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what else can melo do?! 44 pts, 9 boards?
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fishmike
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2/27/2014  2:27 PM
gunsnewing wrote:My problem is seeing Melo be painted as the victim in all of this. Is it worth starting from scratch again with Melo know that he is entering his 30s I honestly don't know nor do I trust this organization To do the right thing
painted by who? Your reading too many of TFKs posts. All I see Melo doing to going out and playing hard. Ive almost developed more respect for him because he's gotten better here every year, despite all the idiocy that surrounds this franchise.

I 100000% agree though, ZERO confidence this organization does anything right. They will mismanage with Melo or without him.

You know I hated the trade. I went on and on with JRod over the holes in Melo's game, his lack of eff% scoring... all of it. Ive watched him and seen his impact. He can be a big piece of an elite team. Part of a dynamic duo or big three no problem.

We have seen him win against the Heat and OKC and the Spurs and every other good team. I would like to see him with a real supporting cast. I think if we want to build something a guy like Melo is the hardest piece to get. We could have the #1 pick and choose between Bargs, Aldridge, Tyrus Thomas, Sheldon Williams or Adam Morrison... (I know, worst draft, but you get the idea).

A smart team would hedge. A smart team wouldnt have traded the picks for Bargs. They would build around MElo, but still work on the bottom of the roster looking for prospects and young players. Knicks only do that when they need warm bodies.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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gunsnewing
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2/27/2014  2:32 PM
Painted by the media as victims and some fans too. Look at his thread topic. We all know Melo could score but how exciting are hear 44 & 9 games when you lose them and he other players struggle to hit double digits. This is what happens when you give the keys to the franchise to one player and mortage every asset and draft pick
gunsnewing
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2/27/2014  2:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/27/2014  2:46 PM
I think we agree on just about everything except on how to build a team. I think you need to draft. Sure there will be misses like eddy curry but there will also be hits like Noah, deng and Rose. You have your own young core. You don't have to rely on aging starphuchs and scouring the entire league for players that fit that one starphuch. By the time you do that that starphuch is in his 30s and awaiting the inevitable micro fracture knee surgery. Especially when coach is running him into the ground playing 40+ mins in a .400 season

Look at the pattern the past 15yrs going back to H20 and Mcdyess. It doesn't work. Every champion in the past 30yrs have done 2 of the 3 sucessfully drafted, traded and free agent signings. I rather keep drafting til we hit on a couple cornerstone players and build out from there. But that will never happen under this moronic front office.

Again you don't have to win it all just compete for a ring every year
fishmike
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2/27/2014  2:53 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Painted by the media as victims and some fans too. Look at his thread topic. We all know Melo could score but how exciting are hear 44 & 9 games when you lose them and he other players struggle to hit double digits. This is what happens when you give the keys to the franchise to one player and mortage every asset and draft pick
I only hear 3 posters here who believe that. I think the gist of this thread was when you get 44/9 from your big gun and STILL lose its pretty bad.

Knicks have problems. Melo is responsible for part of that. Everyone can ALWAYS do more. I have no problem holding Melo accountable, but I think in year 4 here he's done damn close everything we can ask of him. Cant ask him to be Lebron, any more than we can ask Tyson to be Ewing.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
yellowboy90
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2/27/2014  2:59 PM
I don't think the trade hurt the knicks but I do think the trades after acquiring Melo did hurt the knicks.
fishmike
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2/27/2014  3:01 PM
gunsnewing wrote:I think we agree on just about everything except on how to build a team. I think you need to draft. Sure there will be misses like eddy curry but there will also be hits like Noah, deng and Rose. You have your own young core. You don't have to rely on aging starphuchs and scouring the entire league for players that fit that one starphuch. By the time you do that that starphuch is in his 30s and awaiting the inevitable micro fracture knee surgery. Especially when coach is running him into the ground playing 40+ mins in a .400 season

Look at the pattern the past 15yrs going back to H20 and Mcdyess. It doesn't work. Every champion in the past 30yrs have done 2 of the 3 sucessfully drafted, traded and free agent signings. I rather keep drafting til we hit on a couple cornerstone players and build out from there. But that will never happen under this moronic front office.

Again you don't have to win it all just compete for a ring every year

actually we agree on how to build a team also...

I mean the perfect plan is draft and tank for 3 years, get a few cornerstone guys or at the worst quality rotation guys, and while they are still in their rookie contracts sign a couple big guns with cap space. Like what Pho is trying to do. They already have a great young core, and they could add a max guy like Melo to that group. Thats ideal. Im 100% with you thats best. But if you have a guy as good as Melo I think you have to take your shots.

I mean what if the Knicks added Al Jefferson and Kyle Lowry with Melo for the next 4 years without giving up picks. Probably not enough to win a title, but I bet your in the 2nd round next 4 years and thats worth a shot. When those guys start to decline you move them.

The Knicks had great management under Checketts. Oakley was such a popular player, but we werent winning with that slow plodding lineup. Did they dump Ewing? No they added Camby for Oak. When Starks slowed down a step did they dump Ewing? No they added Spree and got some good role players as well. When they needed more skill and another scorer did they dump Ewing? No they traded Mason for LJ.

I guess its easy in hindsight because those moves worked and Bargs, Felton, Prigs, Chandler... those moves havent yielded much.

Meh.. what do I know, Im debating with Bonn on the internet so take any of my wisdom with a big grain of salt...

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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2/27/2014  3:10 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:I don't think the trade hurt the knicks but I do think the trades after acquiring Melo did hurt the knicks.

If we made every single of one of those post-Melo trades but not the Melo trade, we'd be in a better position now. We'd have the amnesty that was used on Billups, a lottery pick, and almost $25 mil freed up from Melo's salary.
gunsnewing
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2/27/2014  3:28 PM
So fish you are saying it's better to be in a position where at least you have a player like Carmelo than be the Washington wizards. Years of high draft picks and complete roster mismanagement?

My ideal scenario requires the Knicks front office to operate like the pacers, spurs celtics and lakers. I'd like to think that being in New York has soon level of cache to attrack players. It shouldn't be impossible. This regime makes it seen impossible but hopefully the day will come when Dolan let's basketball people run the team
yellowboy90
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2/27/2014  3:35 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I don't think the trade hurt the knicks but I do think the trades after acquiring Melo did hurt the knicks.

If we made every single of one of those post-Melo trades but not the Melo trade, we'd be in a better position now. We'd have the amnesty that was used on Billups, a lottery pick, and almost $25 mil freed up from Melo's salary.

Are you sure the knicks would not have amnestied someone else and traded for Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings plus still be without the lottery pick because they gave it to Mil or ATL? Then again they could have made a trade for Garnett and Peirce to steal the Boston heroes like the Yankees do.

Bottom line is their personnel structure after the trade was poor? To sign and then amnesty Billups because you think you can get away with Toney D running the point is dumb? To draft Shump to mold him into a point was dumb. To give up picks for Camby was stupid. To bring back Felton was stupid considering picks were given up too. Then You give up a 1st round pick for Bargs which is dumb.

Really it continues to boil down to their lack of insight into the value of good point guard play. Supposedly, there were inquiries into Shump for Isaiah, Bledsoe, and Lowry. Isaiah and Lowry would have been my choice but that's just me.
Bonn1997
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2/27/2014  4:08 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I don't think the trade hurt the knicks but I do think the trades after acquiring Melo did hurt the knicks.

If we made every single of one of those post-Melo trades but not the Melo trade, we'd be in a better position now. We'd have the amnesty that was used on Billups, a lottery pick, and almost $25 mil freed up from Melo's salary.

Are you sure the knicks would not have amnestied someone else and traded for Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings plus still be without the lottery pick because they gave it to Mil or ATL? Then again they could have made a trade for Garnett and Peirce to steal the Boston heroes like the Yankees do.

Bottom line is their personnel structure after the trade was poor? To sign and then amnesty Billups because you think you can get away with Toney D running the point is dumb? To draft Shump to mold him into a point was dumb. To give up picks for Camby was stupid. To bring back Felton was stupid considering picks were given up too. Then You give up a 1st round pick for Bargs which is dumb.

Really it continues to boil down to their lack of insight into the value of good point guard play. Supposedly, there were inquiries into Shump for Isaiah, Bledsoe, and Lowry. Isaiah and Lowry would have been my choice but that's just me.


We're not disagreeing about whether the decisions after the Melo trade were bad. I just see it as part of the problem that we gave up all our trade assets, future picks, and almost 40% of the cap to Carmelo.
fishmike
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2/27/2014  4:28 PM
gunsnewing wrote:So fish you are saying it's better to be in a position where at least you have a player like Carmelo than be the Washington wizards. Years of high draft picks and complete roster mismanagement?

My ideal scenario requires the Knicks front office to operate like the pacers, spurs celtics and lakers. I'd like to think that being in New York has soon level of cache to attrack players. It shouldn't be impossible. This regime makes it seen impossible but hopefully the day will come when Dolan let's basketball people run the team

better than the Wizards? Everyone looks better then the Knicks right now...but thats not saying much. Wiz have a couple potential blue chips... time will tell. The main thing would be to add a couple max guys before they have to pay Wall. Thats the real KEY.

My thing with Melo is simply that while he has his faults he's also a rare breed of player. Very few guys can take over games like he can, and I dont mean hero ball stand and watch Melo, I mean be a pressense that the other team just cant deal with, but for that to happen for ANY player the supporting cast needs to be effective.

Remember how the Knicks used to beat the Heat? Let Zo get his, and stop the other guys. Rather than double Alonzo we let Ewing guard him and they kind of nuetralized each other. We would win because Houston, Spree, LJ, Camby.. those guys were simply better than Hardaway, thunder Dan, etc etc

What happens in the playoffs? Teams trap Melo and force the other guys to beat them. So what have we seen so far? Melo has had some big playoff moments, and some bad shooting nights as well, but game 1 of the Pacers series is a perfect example. 38 points, 8 rebs on 15-29 shooting and we lose by 8. Thats a Michael Jordan stat line, but we dont have Pippin, we have JR.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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2/27/2014  4:44 PM
so...what everyone is basically saying is that melo is dominique wilkins.
yellowboy90
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2/27/2014  4:46 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:I don't think the tradthat's the F.O.rt the knicks but I do think the trades after acquiring Melo did hurt the knicks.

If we made every single of one of those post-Melo trades but not the Melo trade, we'd be in a better position now. We'd have the emergencymnesty that was used on Billups, a lottery pick, and almost $25 mil freed up from Melo's salary.

Are you sure the knicks would not have amnestied someone else and traded for Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings plus still be without the lottery pick because they gave it to Mil or ATL? Then again they could have made a trade for Garnett and Peirce to steal the Boston heroes like the Yankees do.

Bottom line is their personnel structure after the trade was poor? To sign and then amnesty Billups because you think you can get away with Toney D running the point is dumb? To draft Shump to mold him into a point was dumb. To give up picks for Camby was stupid. To bring back Felton was stupid considering picks were given up too. Then You give up a 1st round pick for Bargs which is dumb.

Really it continues to boil down to their lack of insight into the value of good point guard play. Supposedly, there were inquiries into Shump for Isaiah, Bledsoe, and Lowry. Isaiah and Lowry would have been my choice but that's just me.


We're not disagreeing about whether the decisions after the Melo trade were bad. I just see it as part of the problem that we gave up all our trade assets, future picks, and almost 40% of the cap to Carmelo.

Saying all is wrong. They kept the great Fields and had other future picks. Yes, they gave up a lot but that's the F.O.'s fault. They could've done the trade earlier when it was supposedly cheaper or not do it at all. Despite all that when you do make a trade like that you need to find synergy with personnel and not break the in case of emergency glass to soon.
fishmike
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2/28/2014  12:13 PM
djsunyc wrote:so...what everyone is basically saying is that melo is dominique wilkins.
you cant stay away... when Isiah comes back this summer Im getting season tix in the 400s and we are trying you to the chair and holding your eyes open clockwork orange style.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
StarksEwing1
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2/28/2014  12:25 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/28/2014  12:39 PM
fishmike wrote:
djsunyc wrote:so...what everyone is basically saying is that melo is dominique wilkins.
you cant stay away... when Isiah comes back this summer Im getting season tix in the 400s and we are trying you to the chair and holding your eyes open clockwork orange style.
I always try to be fair/objective when it comes to Melo because i do like him. He is a great scorer a top 3 scorer that is pretty much agreed on. Also he does work hard especially on the boards agianst bigger guys. However he just sint a complete players which isnt a knock on him because its rare to have complete players like lebron durant and kobe. However melo hanst shown he can make the team better esoecially in the playoffs like those others gusy can. His playoff record hanst been great, now i dont blame it all on him BUT you cant blame evrybody else. He did have pretty good teams in Denver. Like i said i do like Melo BUUT i just think ist time for the Knicks and melo to ahve a fresh start. I felt they should of tarded him because we need a rebuild and Melo could ahve gotten a fresh start somewhere else
fishmike
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2/28/2014  1:02 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
djsunyc wrote:so...what everyone is basically saying is that melo is dominique wilkins.
you cant stay away... when Isiah comes back this summer Im getting season tix in the 400s and we are trying you to the chair and holding your eyes open clockwork orange style.
I always try to be fair/objective when it comes to Melo because i do like him. He is a great scorer a top 3 scorer that is pretty much agreed on. Also he does work hard especially on the boards agianst bigger guys. However he just sint a complete players which isnt a knock on him because its arre to have complete players like lebron durant and kobe. However melo hanst shown he can make the team better esoecially in the playoffs like those others gusy can. His playoff record hanst been great, now i dont blame it all on him BUT you cant blame evrybody else. He did have pretty good teams in Denver. Like i said i do like Melo BUUT i just think ist time for the Knicks and melo to ahve a fresh start. I felt they should of tarded him because we need a rebuild and Melo could ahve gotten a fresh start somewhere else
what does a fresh start accomplish? What is the plan?

Im not pro-Melo. I see him for what he is. He's got the holes you mention. He's also a top 10 player because his ability to score the way he does makes him a very high impact player. I mean after 12 years in the league this will be his first losing season. He's had bad stretches in the playoffs for sure.. and I do not gloss that over. Hell the opposite:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

You cant say as a fan I dont hold this guy accountable, but you have to use your eyes... he's a high impact guy. He's too rare a commodity to flush away and reboot on a whim. Since Melo has been here I have seen his teammates fail a lot more than he has. To me he's kept up his end.. play hard, get better every year, act like a leader on the court. Anyone on this board that says this guy loafs or doesnt bring it isnt watching and hasnt been.

As dysfunctional as this team and organization has been he's still managed to win games here. Still managed to make the playoffs and still managed to advance once. This year he's got career highs in rebounding and he's shooting the 3 like Allan Houston. I dont idolize this guy. I didnt like the trade. Im more than willing (see thread above) as fan to take Melo to task for his shortcomings.

But saying the guy is crap, making statements like he doesnt make guys better and cant play with other talent, and you need stars for him to be effective so might as well dump him... I mean these statements are not reality based, and when they are repeated 100x a day by the same guys it kills any reasonable discussion we can have around here. Is what it is I guess...

A good org would add players that fit a style of play, and still understand this guy is 30 and build up the bottom of the roster. It can be done. Need a change of philosophy. Im even fine with trading him and doing a tank rebuild. Fine... who is executing this plan? Isiah?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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2/28/2014  1:03 PM
fishmike wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:So fish you are saying it's better to be in a position where at least you have a player like Carmelo than be the Washington wizards. Years of high draft picks and complete roster mismanagement?

My ideal scenario requires the Knicks front office to operate like the pacers, spurs celtics and lakers. I'd like to think that being in New York has soon level of cache to attrack players. It shouldn't be impossible. This regime makes it seen impossible but hopefully the day will come when Dolan let's basketball people run the team

better than the Wizards? Everyone looks better then the Knicks right now...but thats not saying much. Wiz have a couple potential blue chips... time will tell. The main thing would be to add a couple max guys before they have to pay Wall. Thats the real KEY.

My thing with Melo is simply that while he has his faults he's also a rare breed of player. Very few guys can take over games like he can, and I dont mean hero ball stand and watch Melo, I mean be a pressense that the other team just cant deal with, but for that to happen for ANY player the supporting cast needs to be effective.

Remember how the Knicks used to beat the Heat? Let Zo get his, and stop the other guys. Rather than double Alonzo we let Ewing guard him and they kind of nuetralized each other. We would win because Houston, Spree, LJ, Camby.. those guys were simply better than Hardaway, thunder Dan, etc etc

What happens in the playoffs? Teams trap Melo and force the other guys to beat them. So what have we seen so far? Melo has had some big playoff moments, and some bad shooting nights as well, but game 1 of the Pacers series is a perfect example. 38 points, 8 rebs on 15-29 shooting and we lose by 8. Thats a Michael Jordan stat line, but we dont have Pippin, we have JR.

I would like to address a couple of things here.. First of all the Wizards already paid wall, so I really don't see why they need to add more max guys to a young team like theirs, the next step for them is to improve organically.. they have vets like ariza and nene, gortat there, and they have young players in wall, Beal and otto porter.

Remember how the Knicks used to beat the Heat? Let Zo get his, and stop the other guys. Rather than double Alonzo we let Ewing guard him and they kind of nuetralized each other. We would win because Houston, Spree, LJ, Camby.. those guys were simply better than Hardaway, thunder Dan, etc etc

I would not say that spree and Houston and camby were simply better than Hardway and marjele.. or even PJ brown... Those series were highly contested we beat them when we were an 8th seed thanks to that bounce we got on that Houston shot.. I think we beat the heat 3 series to 1, but make no mistake those were hard fought series that could have gone either way... Same struggles we had with indy, we were all evenly matched teams

What happens in the playoffs? Teams trap Melo and force the other guys to beat them. So what have we seen so far? Melo has had some big playoff moments, and some bad shooting nights as well, but game 1 of the Pacers series is a perfect example. 38 points, 8 rebs on 15-29 shooting and we lose by 8. Thats a Michael Jordan stat line, but we dont have Pippin, we have JR.

that is over simplifying things.. the bulls won on the defensive end first.. Pippen and Jordan were all world defenders, it started there first, so it didn't matter if jordan shot 15-29 or 15-39 the constant was defense, and sharing the ball on offense... lets not make pippen out to be some offensive juggernaut... the bulls had guys like steve kerr, paxon and Hodges hitting big shot game after game.. are you telling me, carmelo didn't play with guys as good as them? why not point out that carmelo dominates the ball and doesn't create offense for others.. you see Jordan did that, carmelo had a total of 8 assists the entire pacers series, that was less than roy hibbert.. Jordan on the other hand averaged 6 assits per game in the playoffs fish and shot an outstanding 49% from the field while carmelo shot 41% from the field in his playoff career.. you see fish this is more about great players like jordan being great, not about him having a pippen... and this is more about carmelo not being great than him not having a pippen... You have to be great to win on the highest level, not great for a game, not great doing one thing, your overall effect has to be great.. Jordan scored, passed and defended on an elite level.. and the players who can do great things for extended periods of time tend to win and elevate those around them...

but game 1 of the Pacers series is a perfect example. 38 points, 8 rebs on 15-29 shooting and we lose by 8.

NO FISH THAT IS NOT A PERFECT EXAMPLE.. it is not accurate.. game 1 carmelo had 27/11 boards on 10/28 shooting that is 36% shooting...

BTW the guy you love to pick on, felton had 18/2/3 on an efficient 8-12 shooting.. not great, but he played the best game of any knick.... if not the best, the most efficient..

so if anything carmelo let down his teammates not the other way around..

carmelo is not a bad player.. just not a great one.. not good enough to command a max contract and build around if you want a winner.. no matter how much comparing you do, to guys like Ewing, MJ, it doesn't fit...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
StarksEwing1
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2/28/2014  1:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/28/2014  1:17 PM
fishmike wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
djsunyc wrote:so...what everyone is basically saying is that melo is dominique wilkins.
you cant stay away... when Isiah comes back this summer Im getting season tix in the 400s and we are trying you to the chair and holding your eyes open clockwork orange style.
I always try to be fair/objective when it comes to Melo because i do like him. He is a great scorer a top 3 scorer that is pretty much agreed on. Also he does work hard especially on the boards agianst bigger guys. However he just sint a complete players which isnt a knock on him because its arre to have complete players like lebron durant and kobe. However melo hanst shown he can make the team better esoecially in the playoffs like those others gusy can. His playoff record hanst been great, now i dont blame it all on him BUT you cant blame evrybody else. He did have pretty good teams in Denver. Like i said i do like Melo BUUT i just think ist time for the Knicks and melo to ahve a fresh start. I felt they should of tarded him because we need a rebuild and Melo could ahve gotten a fresh start somewhere else
what does a fresh start accomplish? What is the plan?

Im not pro-Melo. I see him for what he is. He's got the holes you mention. He's also a top 10 player because his ability to score the way he does makes him a very high impact player. I mean after 12 years in the league this will be his first losing season. He's had bad stretches in the playoffs for sure.. and I do not gloss that over. Hell the opposite:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45742

You cant say as a fan I dont hold this guy accountable, but you have to use your eyes... he's a high impact guy. He's too rare a commodity to flush away and reboot on a whim. Since Melo has been here I have seen his teammates fail a lot more than he has. To me he's kept up his end.. play hard, get better every year, act like a leader on the court. Anyone on this board that says this guy loafs or doesnt bring it isnt watching and hasnt been.

As dysfunctional as this team and organization has been he's still managed to win games here. Still managed to make the playoffs and still managed to advance once. This year he's got career highs in rebounding and he's shooting the 3 like Allan Houston. I dont idolize this guy. I didnt like the trade. Im more than willing (see thread above) as fan to take Melo to task for his shortcomings.

But saying the guy is crap, making statements like he doesnt make guys better and cant play with other talent, and you need stars for him to be effective so might as well dump him... I mean these statements are not reality based, and when they are repeated 100x a day by the same guys it kills any reasonable discussion we can have around here. Is what it is I guess...

A good org would add players that fit a style of play, and still understand this guy is 30 and build up the bottom of the roster. It can be done. Need a change of philosophy. Im even fine with trading him and doing a tank rebuild. Fine... who is executing this plan? Isiah?

Again Fish you are jumping all over the place and you seem upset again gotta chill maan lol. First of all we have no assets/cap space. If melo wnats to stay then he probably has to wait another year until we have the resources to add more talent. My point is that if Melo is leaning towards moving to another team then we should ahve see whta we could get for him. PS my eyes are fine
fishmike
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2/28/2014  1:26 PM
TFK your right... the #s I posted were not from game 1, they were from the ELIMINATION game. My apologies for the inaccuracy.

So it was game 6... everything on the line, Knicks facing elimination. That game. Sorry.. lets review:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201305180IND.html

Melo 15-29, 39points, 7 rebs, 2 assists, 3 TOs

So this is when you need your best to play the best right? So thats my guy's stats.

Lets check out TFK's stars of the game:
Felton: 32 minutes 0-7 FGs, 2 points 6 assists
Kidd: 0 points 0 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 assist in 6 minutes

Some others:
Prigs: 6 points on 2-6
JR 15 points on 4-15 shooting

So facing elimination who played like a star? Who played like a franchise player? Do tell... maybe you should write up one of your "TFK's keys to the game" oh wait.. you dont post there anymore.

Take one game... the elimination game (again my apologies for posting the wrong game). Did he play like a franchise player?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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2/28/2014  1:31 PM
Woodson is more to blame them some like to admit
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what else can melo do?! 44 pts, 9 boards?
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