A Melo-Love-Shumpert or Melo-Rondo-Shumpert or Love-Rondo-Shumpert or Aldridge-Shumpert-Rondo team doesn't sound like a good "retool" to you?

ChuckBuck wrote:This current team's core runs out the end of this season (2014), so 2015 is really Year 0 or 1. Only 2016 are we missing a draft pick. Depending if we resign Melo, we can add additional max salary players like a Love, Rondo, Aldridge, etc along with our young players like Shumpert, THJR, and role players. We have our draft pick in 2015, so that will be also another bonus.

A Melo-Love-Shumpert or Melo-Rondo-Shumpert or Love-Rondo-Shumpert or Aldridge-Shumpert-Rondo team doesn't sound like a good "retool" to you?

not enough cap space, but honestly a lebron, kyrie irving duo sounds great.. they are not coming here.. now you are going on who would look great here.. dude we don't know who will be available....every team with cap space at a minimum can say this....

you need to look at the link i posted in 2015 we will have over 20 mil on the books, if we resign carmelo we won't be able to sign those guys.... maybe one if we are fortunate..

lets say the cap is 60 mil... carmelo gets 21 mil.. rondo 18 mil and love 18 mil, that is 57 mil, and it doesn't include felton, jr smith, shumpert, 2015 pick, THJ any free agents..

I mean you guys are not being realsitic..

We've gotten younger and more talented with far more upside on this roster. Shump, THJ, CJ & Tyler all have upside. Shump for sure is on the verge of making a step to the next level. We don't know just how good Bargnani will be here. We don't know just how good they can be yet. That upside factor to this roster makes it hard to judge what the ceiling is for this team. Just 2 players having a breakout season could make a huge difference to this team's chances to get to the finals.

I also think that having MWP and KMart from day one will make a huge difference. We saw what KMart brought when he came and now with MWP also those are 2 guys who really can bring a toughness to the team we didn't have to start the year last year. People are worried about not having another big, but we might be able to make due with Tyler. He's a very active body on the boards and has the arms of a 7'er. We'll see if they can coach Tyler up and get him in the rotation.

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usual, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

so now martin, what is it? cap space and no carmelo? otherwise I am not the one making crap up..

what part of "the Knicks will have a ton of cap space in 2015" don't you understand? It's up to the GM to use it the best way he can after that.

martin, we won't have a ton of cap space if carmelo opts out and we foolishly resign him.. point blank, period!

lets break this down martin.. the cap by then should be around 59-61 mil... if carmelo resigns that will leave us around 30 mil, with carmelo and like 4 other players.... you have to fill out the roster, and this is where having your picks help.. had we had our 2014 pick and our 2016 picks you can fill in with cheap young talent... so with 30 mil you probably can get one more max level contract... that is not a TON of cap space martin,especially with an empty roster.. but if carmelo doesn't resign.. I agree we would have a ton of cap space, again that is factoring no more moves are made that would add salary.. can you guarantee that?

so again I ask. does your ton of cap space include carmelo, or not?... simple question

I can't even follow your logic. Do it like this:

Player          Salary
-----------------------------------
Melo            $
Shump           $
-----------------------------------
Total:          $

martin we will have over 6 mil on the books, add in carmelo at 25 mil and that is over 31 mil.. it is simple, you will have carmelo and 4 other players.. sign another max player and that will leave you with about 10 mil to fill out a roster... now keep in mind, we won't have the luxury of having a pick in 2014 and 2016.. which would be helpful in filling out a roster on the cheap...

but I will play along

here is the link martin....

http://www.hoopsworld.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary

so the salary will be 18 mil... add in carmelo martin...as i said, will he or will he not be here...

and then lets add this.. shumpert will either be here under his 3.7 player option or he will be extended for even more.. so which is it?

add in carmelo and the existing salaries martin and you are over 40 mil.. not the ton of cap space you were projecting...

Dont forget the roster holds...those empty spots have dollars assigned as well.

And of course did JR opt in or not in that year and did we keep his rights? Iso thats dollars.

Ditto for felton.

There no ton of cap space, i have no clue why people believe that.

I see two guys who holds will be renounced. I see other assets for S&Ts. It's not all about the cap but about the tax apron

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usual, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

so now martin, what is it? cap space and no carmelo? otherwise I am not the one making crap up..

what part of "the Knicks will have a ton of cap space in 2015" don't you understand? It's up to the GM to use it the best way he can after that.

martin, we won't have a ton of cap space if carmelo opts out and we foolishly resign him.. point blank, period!

lets break this down martin.. the cap by then should be around 59-61 mil... if carmelo resigns that will leave us around 30 mil, with carmelo and like 4 other players.... you have to fill out the roster, and this is where having your picks help.. had we had our 2014 pick and our 2016 picks you can fill in with cheap young talent... so with 30 mil you probably can get one more max level contract... that is not a TON of cap space martin,especially with an empty roster.. but if carmelo doesn't resign.. I agree we would have a ton of cap space, again that is factoring no more moves are made that would add salary.. can you guarantee that?

so again I ask. does your ton of cap space include carmelo, or not?... simple question

I can't even follow your logic. Do it like this:

Player          Salary
-----------------------------------
Melo            $
Shump           $
-----------------------------------
Total:          $

martin we will have over 6 mil on the books, add in carmelo at 25 mil and that is over 31 mil.. it is simple, you will have carmelo and 4 other players.. sign another max player and that will leave you with about 10 mil to fill out a roster... now keep in mind, we won't have the luxury of having a pick in 2014 and 2016.. which would be helpful in filling out a roster on the cheap...

but I will play along

here is the link martin....

http://www.hoopsworld.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary

so the salary will be 18 mil... add in carmelo martin...as i said, will he or will he not be here...

and then lets add this.. shumpert will either be here under his 3.7 player option or he will be extended for even more.. so which is it?

add in carmelo and the existing salaries martin and you are over 40 mil.. not the ton of cap space you were projecting...

Dont forget the roster holds...those empty spots have dollars assigned as well.

And of course did JR opt in or not in that year and did we keep his rights? Iso thats dollars.

Ditto for felton.

There no ton of cap space, i have no clue why people believe that.

I see two guys who holds will be renounced. I see other assets for S&Ts. It's not all about the cap but about the tax apron

You dont need S&T's if you have cap space, and that invokes a hard cap if you use it....which is why teams in this CBA will rarely if ever use it....nobody truly benefits from it.

Exactly. It all comes down to Melo; what he is willing to sign for and how bad he wants to win here.

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usually, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

Don't the Knicks have their 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 first round Draft picks?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm

why not go out to year 2040? the point is, I am cool with waiting out till that time as long as we do things right, but we are talking 2015... are you telling me we are going to build a team by 2015 waiting on picks from 2017-2019? we won't have a 2014 or 2016 pick.. NONE, and when you are looking at rebuulding, especially in a 5 year window, that hurts...

Raymond Felton and Jr Smith both are on player options and would need to opt in. Felton at 4.5mil and Smith at 6.5mil with 1yr left on there contracts (and I believe Smith got majority of his money up front) have good value. You offer them to teams with cap space(in separate trades most likely) for a future 2 rd pick. They would not only be off but we would receive 4.5 and 6.5 mil trade exceptions.

Same could be done with Tyson Chandler and Shumpert if need be. S&T Tyson to a team with cap space probably 6-8mil range for a future pick 1st or 2nd creating a 6-8mil trade exception. Shumpert could be signed and traded probably 6-8mil for a future first rd pick if we couldn't move anyone else.

Now not only do you have the cap space but you have the trade exceptions and future 2nd rders to fill in the role player slots.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

Its not like the Knicks gave up what they did in the Curry, Dice or McGrady trade. Two very late second round picks and a compromised first rounder three years from now wasn't going to change the fortune of the Knicks no matter how you spin it. Bargs was a limited gamble. Minimally he creates more cap space and is better on the court then the guys that left in the trade. There also is the potential for him to be much more then that and to flourish in a different situation. This is Grunwald's third offseason and his first where he traded a first round pick. Three offseasons of not trading a first rounder and suddenly it is same old knicks.

bad moves are bad moves.. now there are degrees of how bad the moves are, but lesser bad moves should not be welcome.. plain and simple..

let me ask you this? do you ever want the knicks to become a franchise on the level of the spurs? I do... tell me, the way we are doing business you think we will ever get there?

sports is similar to things in life.. I look at what successful people do. i consider myself very smart and somewhat successful... but i surround myself with people who are even better and smarter than me... and I tend to reject the very same things they do. I tend to develop the same standards... If you want to be great, then you need to start doing things great people and teams do..

Carmelo, Bargnani, are not what great teams are looking for.. Trading picks and assets as if they are useless are not what great franchises do....

I want the knicks to be great damnit!!!!!!!!!!!! 30 years and counting and I have no time for the bullshyt!!!!!!

Grunwald took over in 2011. The Knicks only had first round picks every other year, starting with the 2013 pick until 2016. There was no way Grunwald could turn the Knicks into the Spurs when he took the job. He also had a superstar that was only 27 and did the right thing by building around him. The knicks weren't getting help to beat the other top teams in the east with Novak, Camby, the second to last pick in the second round next year, a 2017 late second round pick, and a compromised first round pick in 2016. They might beat them with Bargs. They also put themselves in a better position cap wise for 2015. However, with their pick situation the only way they fall into anything close to the Spurs would be if Melo missed an entire year like Robinson did and the Knicks got Wiggins. But they don't have that pick anyway. Grunwald had to do his job with what he had available. If the Knicks lucked into drafting a Duncan like player with Melo in his prime maybe the Knicks start doing business differently.

grunwald had an allstar player.. not a superstar. not close.. I guess he was in a tough position, he had to build around dolans toy which history dictates just isn't the best thing to do if you are trying to win a ring. but we bungled the lin situation, and continued to compound mistakes by trading picks for camby and now bargnani...after last year, considering what little we had to work with, I would have been shopping carmelo and tyson chandler...

They also put themselves in a better position cap wise for 2015.

you do know that is NY fan spin talk.. right?

 	                AGE  GP GS
1  Steve Novak          29   81 1     Andrea Bargnani       27
2  J.R. Smith 	        27   80 0     J.R. Smith            27
3  Pablo Prigioni 	38   78 18    Pablo Prigioni        36
4  Jason Kidd           39   76 48    Beno Udrih            31
5  Raymond Felton       28   68 68    Raymond Felton        29
6  Carmelo Anthony      28   67 67    Carmelo Anthony       29
7  Tyson Chandler       30   66 66    Tyson Chandler        30
8  James White 	        30   57 16    Tim Hardaway, Jr.     21
9  Chris Copeland       28   56 13    Metta World Peace     33
10 Iman Shumpert        22   45 45    Iman Shumpert         23
11 Ronnie Brewer        27   46 34    C.J. Leslie           22
12 Kurt Thomas 	        40   39 17    Jeremy Tyler          22
13 Amar'e Stoudemire    30   29 0     Amar'e Stoudemire     30
14 Marcus Camby         38   24 4     Kenyon Martin         35
15 Rasheed Wallace      38   21 0
16 Kenyon Martin        35   18 11   

Grunwald has a tough job and has been doing the best he can to try to get the right mix. I think this years team is closer to what he wanted the team to look like. I think they still have good veteran presence but also some young legs to help make the long season bearable. Overall tho the talent he's added is an improvement over last years team no matter what some people think. Just comparing the talent and age of the players from last year and their replacements makes it obvious that there's more potential from this years roster.

Ultimately the success of this team is going to be on Woody and the staff's ability to bring this team together and get them to buy into team defense and team offense. I think the lesson of last playoffs was that they can't win with ISO ball and they really needed more weapons. You can't win with players that can't or won't score the ball when open. The Knicks have to be able to put pressure on teams from more positions and not just from a few players as we saw last year.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm not worried about 2 years from now. In the NBA that's a long time. This team made the changes they could make and for the most part I think they did a good job. There are no slam dunks when you're as limited in your options as the Knicks were, but they did a good job of taking a low risk, high reward player like Bargnani. Even in his worst season he still wasn't as bad as the guys we let go for him. His upside is very high considering his talent level. If Woody can restore his confidence and give him a great role this year, AB is gonna flourish and help this team. That's a positive step.

I trust Woody when it comes to getting thru to his players and getting them to believe and buy in. If Woody has the impact on AB that he had on STAT and JR, then he'll be a huge plus for this team. Woody's word has clout because STAT's low post work was successful and JR did in fact win the Sixth Man of the year award as he told him he could. That kind of success gives Woody a big boost with his players that he can point to and they will believe.

THAT IS THE kind of thinking that will keep teams from being GREAT...

I said that how i'm thinking, that's not what the Knicks brass are thinking. Clearly they're also thinking about the future and have crafted this team to be one they can retool in 2 years. It used to be that rational Knicks fans would actually understand that kind of forward thinking, but it seems some fans can only complain and dream about some fantasy were we draft the next Lebron. I can honestly state that the only player even close to being the next Lebron was KD and so drafts go by without a transformational talent like Lebron. There are so few players that can practically guarantee a team a title. It's foolish to place all your hopes on landing that player. Even if you get the 1st pick in 3 drafts in a row you can't guarantee that you'll get that kind of player.

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons. After that they can start from scratch if they want to or try to resign Melo and retool again, but it's gonna be up to them how they handle it. Just be honest about the prospect of building thru the draft. It's not a process guaranteed to produce a title. This is why they look at the FA market. A team can spend years trying to lose and get a high draft pick and still not land a winner. It's not that simple.

clearly they haven't!! if you are thinking about the future you keep picks.. this cap space I tell you will not be here in 2015.. stop fooling yourself bro...

The best this team can do is to build the best team they can around Melo and then let it play out over the next 2 seasons.

No that isn't, what the knicks are doing is fooling fans and wasting time...

let me give you an example... you and your wife want to move into a nicer neighborhood so you can send your kid to the best school in the city. so you have a plan. you will rent a cheaper place for a year or two and by time your kid is ready for school, you can afford to move. So you get that 2 bedroom flat with the leaky faucet, but it will do, you have a goal, a plan.. save money, keep your eye on the real prize..

now that is plan, looking forward.. what the knicks are doing is this:

They say, well we have an image to keep up, so lets dress up this leaky flat with granite counter tops, flat screen TV's and oh, we have to have a nice car so our friends don't think we are poor.. we have an image to uphold.. now will this improve their living conditions? on the surface yes, but again, is this going to get them closer to their goal? no.. actually it puts them further out..

and this is how the NY knicks do business...

The Knicks have a ton of cap space in 2015, suggesting otherwise is flat out making crap up

martin we have been down this road.. so basically you are saying carmelo anthony will be gone.. if so, I am fine with that 100%.. so we will have cap space.. and no carmelo. I can roll with that.. we wont' have picks as usually, but hey, we can use our cap space to sign kevin love and rudy gay... lets roll...

Don't the Knicks have their 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 first round Draft picks?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm

why not go out to year 2040? the point is, I am cool with waiting out till that time as long as we do things right, but we are talking 2015... are you telling me we are going to build a team by 2015 waiting on picks from 2017-2019? we won't have a 2014 or 2016 pick.. NONE, and when you are looking at rebuulding, especially in a 5 year window, that hurts...

Teams that improve every year don't usually rebuild. The Knicks have improved every year since they acquired Melo. Two games over .500 to 6 games over .500 in a strike shortened season, to 26 games over .500. That is a team that has been on an upward trend. It doesn't seem that it is time to try and rebuild with the second to last pick in next years draft, or with a 2017 second rounder or even a 2016 first round pick that the Nugs have the right to swap. If you are the gm and you can improve your chances now and in free agency in two years I think you have to do that.

don't let the regular season fool you.. the knicks peaked last year with carmelo.. again, this is the problem with fools gold....smart GM's can tell the difference and when to cut bait...

yea, it seems like the knicks locked themselves into melo-ocrity...... but hey, I don't want to say, I told you so...

If you told me that after trading draft picks, young players, and not resigning young guys to clear cap space the Knicks would end up with a 25 million dollar player that couldn't play, had an uninsureable contract, and they would still win 50+ games for the first time in 13 years I would say sign me up. If you told me that they would win the Atlantic for the first time in 19 years I would say I am all in. If you told me the Knicks would lose to the pacers in 6 with Kidd giving them nothing, Tyson weak, ill and playing the role of bad teammate, JR disappearing and needing surgery, and Melo playing through a torn labrum, I would be ok with that. Calling successes that haven't happened in over a decade or almost two decades fools gold sounds like something someone who doesn't want this team to have success would say. Sorry but I have been a fan for a long time and last year was the best season in a long time.

Also sounds like the someones who spent millons of posts telling stories about Melo and the Terminal First Round Ouster. Or how the Karl's GoldeNuggs were the team of the next century. By Golly, how'd that pan out?

Now we're going to be regaled for the next month or so with fabulous stories of SanTone and how they're built the right way.

Can't wait for next season's in-depth analysis of how the Clips are the wave of the future...

Well, Crush, at least he doesn't seem to be buying shares in the Nyet swamp...