holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knickscity wrote:Don't see how this became a discussion but Melo is HOF'er now.

He's won on every level except the NBA and at 25 ppg being his AVERAGE, he is viewed as an underachiever still.

He's a lock.

THis is about Denver and other teams perhaps progressing without a closer superstar. I subscribe that as good as Isiah was it was his cast that provided. I subscribe that Melo alone will never win a championship and while not a fan of "the trade" I support the position that laying blame on him for the teams lack of success so far is not a solid evaluation.

About Isiah, the guy was an intense leader of men and perhaps I was wrong to undermine his effect on that team. My point was that they did not have the frontcourt usually associated with champions in particular Lambier and Rodman!

I disagree with u on Detroit...They had a great defensive team with great depth and guys who understood their roles...Rodman a HOFer and great defender in the early days...James Edwards understood his role and has a 15 foot post up game...Salley was good energy off the bench along with Vinny Johnson...Lambier was physical and a decent defender...Bro, Isiah was a Superstar back then no doubt about it...Superstar in the true sense and I'm very surprised u would see it any onter way...Am I wrong or did Isaih score 25 consecutive points in a playoff game...The guy was unstoppable...Dumars was an all star defender and gave Jordan the most trouble of any defender in the NBA...Great coach..U just can't gloss over Detriot like they were another team...Didn't they have Mark Aguire at some point too??...Did u really say Isaih wasn't a closing Superstar????....It was his calling card...I subscribe that there was no player as dangerous as Isiah with the ball at the top of the key able to blow by u and get to the rim or in taking the three...

Agreed. I was surprised Nalod even brought Detroit and Isiah Thomas into this. I mean 4 Hall of Famers including Coach Chuck Daly?!!?? You don't beat Michael Jordan back to the drawing board, and 2 peat having a chump squad.

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NUPE wrote:

biglove44 wrote:

NUPE wrote:NYNY, don't waste your time. There are several posters on this board whose sole agenda is to overrate Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Lin and be overly-critical of the current team. These are the same people claiming Melo is not a superstar, Melo ran Lin out of town, Melo is selfish, Melo is a loser, etc. These people also tend to try to insinuate that Gallo will be as good or better than Melo eventually....

Really, this current Knicks roster is head and shoulders above and superior in just about every way to the Gallo, Mozgov, Amar'e, Felton, Fields Knick team. You know someone is either trolling or not rational when they try to claim otherwise.

There are a lot of Melo homers too. Homers that think of as many excuses as possible as to why he hasn't made the finals/won a championship. It's always someone else's fault or he didn't have X team mate.

It goes both ways. You don't like reading homer posts about other players and I don't like reading homer posts related to Melo.

Rational analysis of Melo's playoff performances and playoff teams does not equate to being a homer. What is irrational are the people that cling to this idea that Melo ran Lin out of town and somehow is in control of the Knicks front office. LoL!

Also, I think Melo is a superstar player that still has a lot to prove in regards to playoff success. This applies to ton of superstars (such as Deron and Love). We will see how the Knicks do this year. I don't think they have any more excuses barring a massive injury riddled playoffs like the last two years.

Deron's record in playoffs are 19-20 with a trip to the conf. finals. But really there are so many variables to the team dynamic that the arguemt of "Melo in the playoffs" insinuates the individual nature of the game of basketball. Its a team game.

ITs hard to quantify the arguement of playoff failures when your first round opponent could be enroute to a long playoff run, injuries, and a ton of other variables.

We can argue the intangables but unless we watched every game of those series in Denver I don't think anyone can really lay blame on Melo for his individual play in those series.

Melo will get you to the playoffs and that keeps ticket sales going pretty good.

Fans want champioinships but some owners want the balance sheet to look good and don't want to risk losing money in the years it would take to build a club properly.

Does this mean because Dolan and the knicks have been constrcuted this way it holds true in the future? Only on internet forums.

The stars can always align when your a top 4 seed.

Winning a champoinship is not easy. Losing one is.

Usually they don't for a top 4 seed. Going back 45 years, to 1967 when the playoffs were expanded to four teams from each conference, there have only been seven championship teams that weren't either a first or second seed and only two that weren't a top 3 seed. Of those 45 champions there were 26 1st, 12 2nd, 5 3rd, 1 4th (the 1966 Boston Celtics), and 1 6th (the 1995 Houston Rockets) seeds. Basically, if we think we have a shot at a championship we need to finish as one of the top two teams in the East.

yes these are chilling and sobering stats. what the math says is that the knicks must be a top 1 or 2 seed if the melo trade is to be justified. the problem is that melo's teams have been a 3rd seed only once and a second seed only once in the west. i have never liked the fact that melo's teams have always seemed to underachieve in the regular season, as though there was some loafing going on. and lets face it the "loafer" tag has followed carmelo anthony his entire career.

if he does not show up in supreme shape and with a maniacal focus on defending the position the knicks are in big big trouble.

How do you underachieve when you are competing in the same conference as the Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Kings and Mavs? Those teams consistently put better products on the floor when Melo was still with the Nuggs. Seriously, have you really analyzed those Nuggs rosters?

BTW, speaking of underachieving, 1 year the Nuggs won 50 games and ended up being an 8th seed.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

players worth signing to the max AND trading for possess these qualities... and melo is not one of them.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

billups elevated the team to legitimate 2nd seed with a 54-28 record.

here's how: you lose more games on the road against inferior teams. you play down to the competition in both conferences. you lose to mediocre teams you should be beating. all this points to a distinct lack of: leadership, focus, will, offensive efficiency, and defensive intensity.

If there are only 2-3 teams every year that have a legit shot to win a championship, you just identified teams 4-30 in the league. Every non-championship team goes through this.

if melo had possessed these qualities the nuggets should have been a legit top 3 seed almost every year. the one year the nuggets made it to 3rd seed do you know what their record was? a 44-38 mediocre record but enough to top the division-- still, based on the record, they were really a 6th seed.

You continue to make these blanket statements without considering the competition. Using your logic, KG and the TWolves should have been a top 1-2 team every year in the west considering that he was MVP, one year and a first team all NBA player. The west was stacked and there were plenty of teams that had better rosters than the Nuggs...

garnett is an interesting case. first off look at the coach flip saunders-- awful. also people forget he was burdened by having to play with dingleberry for several seasons. 1996-7, 1997-8, 1998-9 with that epitome of dysfunction and underachievement. billups came and went. then finally sprewell and cassell in 03-04 and 04-05. then minnie came to its senses nd fired saunders, forcing mchale to step in.

garnett really had nobody to work with but really two seasons.

melo had nene, miller, and camby his first year.
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
camby, nene, martin, miller, iverson
nene, martin, billups

carmelo has a had a TON more help than garnett ever did and he had a far far superior coach.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NUPE wrote:

biglove44 wrote:

NUPE wrote:NYNY, don't waste your time. There are several posters on this board whose sole agenda is to overrate Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov and Lin and be overly-critical of the current team. These are the same people claiming Melo is not a superstar, Melo ran Lin out of town, Melo is selfish, Melo is a loser, etc. These people also tend to try to insinuate that Gallo will be as good or better than Melo eventually....

Really, this current Knicks roster is head and shoulders above and superior in just about every way to the Gallo, Mozgov, Amar'e, Felton, Fields Knick team. You know someone is either trolling or not rational when they try to claim otherwise.

There are a lot of Melo homers too. Homers that think of as many excuses as possible as to why he hasn't made the finals/won a championship. It's always someone else's fault or he didn't have X team mate.

It goes both ways. You don't like reading homer posts about other players and I don't like reading homer posts related to Melo.

Rational analysis of Melo's playoff performances and playoff teams does not equate to being a homer. What is irrational are the people that cling to this idea that Melo ran Lin out of town and somehow is in control of the Knicks front office. LoL!

Also, I think Melo is a superstar player that still has a lot to prove in regards to playoff success. This applies to ton of superstars (such as Deron and Love). We will see how the Knicks do this year. I don't think they have any more excuses barring a massive injury riddled playoffs like the last two years.

Deron's record in playoffs are 19-20 with a trip to the conf. finals. But really there are so many variables to the team dynamic that the arguemt of "Melo in the playoffs" insinuates the individual nature of the game of basketball. Its a team game.

ITs hard to quantify the arguement of playoff failures when your first round opponent could be enroute to a long playoff run, injuries, and a ton of other variables.

We can argue the intangables but unless we watched every game of those series in Denver I don't think anyone can really lay blame on Melo for his individual play in those series.

Melo will get you to the playoffs and that keeps ticket sales going pretty good.

Fans want champioinships but some owners want the balance sheet to look good and don't want to risk losing money in the years it would take to build a club properly.

Does this mean because Dolan and the knicks have been constrcuted this way it holds true in the future? Only on internet forums.

The stars can always align when your a top 4 seed.

Winning a champoinship is not easy. Losing one is.

Usually they don't for a top 4 seed. Going back 45 years, to 1967 when the playoffs were expanded to four teams from each conference, there have only been seven championship teams that weren't either a first or second seed and only two that weren't a top 3 seed. Of those 45 champions there were 26 1st, 12 2nd, 5 3rd, 1 4th (the 1966 Boston Celtics), and 1 6th (the 1995 Houston Rockets) seeds. Basically, if we think we have a shot at a championship we need to finish as one of the top two teams in the East.

yes these are chilling and sobering stats. what the math says is that the knicks must be a top 1 or 2 seed if the melo trade is to be justified. the problem is that melo's teams have been a 3rd seed only once and a second seed only once in the west. i have never liked the fact that melo's teams have always seemed to underachieve in the regular season, as though there was some loafing going on. and lets face it the "loafer" tag has followed carmelo anthony his entire career.

if he does not show up in supreme shape and with a maniacal focus on defending the position the knicks are in big big trouble.

Thats not how you judge if the trade is justified or not. The proper way to judge if the trade is justified or not would be based on Melo's success and achievements in terms of winning compared to the success and achievements of the players that were traded away. I can tell you right now that Melo is being judged on expectations that all the players that we gave up for Melo will not be expected to achieve.

that is inherently false: you make trades to improve your TEAM and ideally find stability as a foundation for identity. the nuggets have achieved both stability and identity and are going against two teams that will be aging themselves out of contention while the nuggets mature. they had a plan and are building on that plan.

the knicks have been anything but stable since the trade, shipping vanloads in and out in an attempt to solve a problem that won't go away. the trade for melo was not based on any plan and that is the main reason they are having issues. had dolan stayed out of the way we would have been working towards success based on a plan instead of sputtering.

They traded for Melo because they felt that they could find another Gallo and Chandler easier then trying to add a Melo to play with Gallo and Chandler as they clearly failed to lure Lebron. They have added Tyson, Smith, Novak, and Shumpert and got Felton back. There core right now is Tyson, Amare, Melo, Shumpert, Felton, Jr Smith, Novak which can be a competitive team for the next 5-6 yrs. Plus they get major cap space in 3yrs and can make decisions and build based on what happend the previous 3yrs while Melo would be 31.

There are possible positive outcomes that can come from our situation. Many of you guys are just purposely refusing to accept them.

While Wallace will never be known as that "star" when playing to his potential which he did for Brown during there championship run he can be pretty dominant on both sides of the ball though they don't really show big in the stat line.

CrushAlot wrote:Melo looked to be in great shape at the televised practice. Loved Kidd's constant chatter. Amare looks like he is healthy and slimmer. The team looked good. It was great to see Woodson out there coaching and communicating. Thomas looks a lot thinner then last year. The team looks good.

Really enjoyed watching Woodson teach. You know, We really got some Dogs this year in Thomas, Chandler, Wallace, and even Felton. These guys are not backing down and aint afraid to put someone on their butts if need be.

My Hate blinded me.

When I feel the burn of my Isiah hate I play this to make me feel better:

Nalod did not root for the "Bad Boys".

93BUICK wrote:I think it will be a much smarter team than we're used to seeing-

+1
Anyone going to miss Al Harrington losing games by slapping the backboard?

We really need an "ex-Knicks we don't miss thread"

knickstorrents wrote:

NUPE wrote:As for protecting our assets?!?! I just don't believe the assets we had - prior to Melo trade - were ever going to reach a level where we'd be able to have even an outside shot of competing to get to the finals.
We had Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Mozgov and Felton. None of these players have progressed to a point where they are consistently explosive night to night or even month to month as of now. I think Gallo still has tons of potential but he has not shown real progress / consistency and he has been in the league for a few years now.

Everyone who says things like this neglects to factor in cap space. Those players were good value relative to their ability (maybe Gallo less so now with his current contract). To me the argument is, for the amount of money I'm paying, how many wins can I get with this player? I would argue that the return on Melo is much worse than Gallo.

With more cap space you have the flexibility try to hone in on deals that really improve the team (e.g., Lakers Odom Trade exception got them Steve Nash).

very good point...

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

I'm not sure what some of you consider a franchise player, but melo is the closest thing we have to one..You wanna call Ewing a franchise player (who never won a ring) yet you don't want to call melo one..In order to be a leader/franchise player, you have to be the hardest worker on the team and prove it with your game, not your mouth..

I don't think melo is the hardest worker on the team because he gets called out for his defense way to much, and the fact that he can play really good d when he's ready is a testament to why he's on the bubble..

I also consider a franchise player, a player who literally carries a team by himself which melo has done..

It's like the debate ppl have with why Eli, Flacco, Romo are not consider elite..When you have a great supporting cast and your team doesn't soley rely on you to win games/championships, then your just a good player at your position..Denver and the knicks have relied on Melo to win games, and he has carried both teams to respectabilty..thats franchise..

knicks1248 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:HOF because they won!

And, "HE" took down bird and the Celtics! "He" defeated "Showtime"...........

My point, Melo is not "HE"! This notion that a single player can habitually win witout a solid supporting cast is crazy.

nalod maybe melo needs to be a part of the supporting cast instead of trying to be "the man".. this guy doesn't have the character to be a franchise guy... not one who will be the focal point of a champion... as you said, championships are hard to win.. I agree, and it takes a special dedicated leader of men to do so.... kobe is a jerk, but he is dedicated like no other, the guy is all about the game..... Lebron is a leader although "the decision" was stupid..... Duncan, parker, dirk, those guys were leaders... carmelo is a child... in every sense of the word.... maybe the problem with the teams carmelo was on was him being the Leader.... what the nuggets needed and what the knicks need is a REAl Leader.. and for melo to be "one of the guys"..

I'm not sure what some of you consider a franchise player, but melo is the closest thing we have to one..You wanna call Ewing a franchise player (who never won a ring) yet you don't want to call melo one..In order to be a leader/franchise player, you have to be the hardest worker on the team and prove it with your game, not your mouth..

I don't think melo is the hardest worker on the team because he gets called out for his defense way to much, and the fact that he can play really good d when he's ready is a testament to why he's on the bubble..

I also consider a franchise player, a player who literally carries a team by himself which melo has done..

It's like the debate ppl have with why Eli, Flacco, Romo are not consider elite..When you have a great supporting cast and your team doesn't soley rely on you to win games/championships, then your just a good player at your position..Denver and the knicks have relied on Melo to win games, and he has carried both teams to respectabilty..thats franchise..

again, we just stated how hard it is to win a ring, but as fishmike pointed out, look at Ewings resume and look at carmelo's.. both individually and the team... not even close... lets just not even go there comparing carmelo and ewing.. it really is not contest....

I also consider a franchise player, a player who literally carries a team by himself which melo has done..

i would be careful with that. you are going down a slippery slope there..