Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Oh god........... I watch other teams because their bench could be starters for but Melo is letting his team down here in New York??? Did I just that Shit??? SMH, keep digging that hole bro, just own up to it during the season.

Still waiting for you to own up for the past 1 1/2 years.

Own what??? I barely post here.................

I apologize if you were not one of the supporters of the Melo trade but I could have sworn you were. We've since gone .470 in games he's played in.

Of course I support the trade, no need to apologize. I don't post that much, so it's not too hard for me to tell you where I stand.

Melo: Supported it, worth way more than anything we gave up
Amare: I think he should be traded, injury prone, indecline, doesn't do much more than PnR
MDA: Hated him, argued with Nix all the time, this season blows up he get's a little "vindication"(doubt it)
Lin: Supported the move, also think Felton pretty much approximates what ever Lin does this season for half the price tag. Ie) Lin 16/7 43% Felton 14/7 41%

Think those are my big sticking points in my mind and the book isn't completely closed on any of those situations, so what do you want me to own right now???
86 games with Melo??? What happened to "small sample size" and what not??? If things fall apart or are under expectations, I'll own anything I said.

I'm inclined to agree with Nupe that Melo has a lot of the same mental issues Kobe had earlier in his career in terms of shot selection and trusting teammates.

His primary strength is supposed to be scoring but I think I looked at his career fg% compared to other elite scorers from diff. shot locations on hoopdata and was surprised by what I saw. I think if Melo just had better shot selection/faith in moving the ball and more consistent effort on D he could be a much better player considering he's already a pretty good rebounder.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Oh god........... I watch other teams because their bench could be starters for but Melo is letting his team down here in New York??? Did I just that Shit??? SMH, keep digging that hole bro, just own up to it during the season.

Still waiting for you to own up for the past 1 1/2 years.

Own what??? I barely post here.................

I apologize if you were not one of the supporters of the Melo trade but I could have sworn you were. We've since gone .470 in games he's played in.

Of course I support the trade, no need to apologize. I don't post that much, so it's not too hard for me to tell you where I stand.

Melo: Supported it, worth way more than anything we gave up
Amare: I think he should be traded, injury prone, indecline, doesn't do much more than PnR
MDA: Hated him, argued with Nix all the time, this season blows up he get's a little "vindication"(doubt it)
Lin: Supported the move, also think Felton pretty much approximates what ever Lin does this season for half the price tag. Ie) Lin 16/7 43% Felton 14/7 41%

Think those are my big sticking points in my mind and the book isn't completely closed on any of those situations, so what do you want me to own right now???
86 games with Melo??? What happened to "small sample size" and what not??? If things fall apart or are under expectations, I'll own anything I said.

If you're saying 86 games (actually 91) is too small a sample size to own up for, then that should already invalidate your comments that critics here will need to own up when Melo plays well this season. (And it's 91 games actually.) You're saying others will need to own up for the success you imagine the team to have in the future but you won't own up to being so far off in the games actually played. I wouldn't have been so harsh if there weren't this hypocrisy.
Small samples are better than no data, although it's not even clear that 91 games should be considered small. We can only analyze available data. There is a 91 game sample against the direction the Melo trade put us in and zero data presently in support of it.

Bonn...Did u not say the best stretch this team have had in 10 years is the 18-6 stretch when Melo led this team???..So why are u complaining???

because the 91 game sample is more important than the 24 game sample. This breaks down to the more simple notion that 91 is a lot bigger than 24.

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Leader schmeader. Melo just needs to stop taking stupid shots.

He does take stupid shots and that is certainly holding him back.

Cool...I didn't think you would acknowledge this actually.

I have stated this numerous times. I know he has flaws, I just think that he can really help a team since he is one of the most talented and clutch players.

It sucks when he pulls up for jumpers when he is trying to shoot himself into games. He sort of thinks and feel that these shots will all fall and they feel great but they are often not.

It is also great when he is unstoppable and coaches have no idea how to stop him. I remember when SVG was asked about Howard and he answered "I just need to figure out how to deal with Carmelo Anthony".

He has that ability and is not a bad guy. He just at times wants to do it alone and does not trust his teammates enough. Does he need more trust able teammates? Of course but that certainly does not always excuse his shot selection.

As I've said, Kobe has this same problem (awful shot selection), it was just covered up more since he was surrounded with better guys. WE KNOW THAT KOBE IS A GREAT DEFENDER AND HAS OTHER QUALITIES - LETS NOT GET INTO THAT PLEASE.

Melo shoots 46 pct for his career which is not too bad, we just both know that he has the potential to be over 50 pct. And, he averaged 3.6 assists this past year which was better but we both know that he can/should be at 4+.

Can he/Will he do this? Will he have a good cast? Will he trust them? We will see.

you make valid observations. i have always thought with bryant it was a character issue, he has possessed the talent and he acquired the skills but he was more interested in winning the battle even if it meant losing the war.

what i mean is he allowed ego to trump strategy. this translates as a lack of leadership. when you are trying to build a team you have to involve other players even when you don't trust them. how else will you engender chemistry, cohesion and focus? the answer is you won't. look at how badly his teams played between shaq and gasol. he had contempt for his teammates and leaders don't have contempt they try to involve and encourage.

this is anthony's problem. it isn't that every shot he takes he thinks is a good shot. it's that he doesn't understand what it means to build a team culture. he should be interested in sacrificing his own numbers for the sake of making others grow their games.

Name me a great scorer that didn't force up bad shots? They all do/did. From Dominique, to Jordan, to Kobe, to Durant, to Aquirre, to English, to Drexler, to Melo, to Iverson.....and so on. Some are inclined to take more bad shots than others, but that's the scorer's mentality. We knew what we were getting when added Melo to the team, a pure scorer who can deliver in the clutch. Not sure why some are acting surprised or even complaining when he forces up some bad shots when that's been his make-up since 'Cuse.

this is a question that fails to evoke a complete picture. the way i look at it is whether the player is a negative-sum player, a zero-sum player, or a positive sum player.

negative-sum players give up more than they give.
zero-sum players give up virtually the same amount as they give.
positive-sum players give more than they give up.

scoring is but one part-- a major part-- of a complete picture. there's defense, hustle plays, chemistry creation/creating for others/making others better, efficiency (the issue here but not the only issue), and defense.

if there were a formula for accounting for all these things that would be great. but there isn't, so we have to look at all these things more or less separately and come up with a portrait of the player as negative-, zero-, or positive-sum.

now having said all this, are you saying that we paid max money AND traded away assets and picks, for an inefficient scorer... and that it was worth it?

please say "no."

this is the problem: take the full measure of carmelo anthony and tell me how he is anything more than a zero-sum player.

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Leader schmeader. Melo just needs to stop taking stupid shots.

He does take stupid shots and that is certainly holding him back.

Cool...I didn't think you would acknowledge this actually.

I have stated this numerous times. I know he has flaws, I just think that he can really help a team since he is one of the most talented and clutch players.

It sucks when he pulls up for jumpers when he is trying to shoot himself into games. He sort of thinks and feel that these shots will all fall and they feel great but they are often not.

It is also great when he is unstoppable and coaches have no idea how to stop him. I remember when SVG was asked about Howard and he answered "I just need to figure out how to deal with Carmelo Anthony".

He has that ability and is not a bad guy. He just at times wants to do it alone and does not trust his teammates enough. Does he need more trust able teammates? Of course but that certainly does not always excuse his shot selection.

As I've said, Kobe has this same problem (awful shot selection), it was just covered up more since he was surrounded with better guys. WE KNOW THAT KOBE IS A GREAT DEFENDER AND HAS OTHER QUALITIES - LETS NOT GET INTO THAT PLEASE.

Melo shoots 46 pct for his career which is not too bad, we just both know that he has the potential to be over 50 pct. And, he averaged 3.6 assists this past year which was better but we both know that he can/should be at 4+.

Can he/Will he do this? Will he have a good cast? Will he trust them? We will see.

you make valid observations. i have always thought with bryant it was a character issue, he has possessed the talent and he acquired the skills but he was more interested in winning the battle even if it meant losing the war.

what i mean is he allowed ego to trump strategy. this translates as a lack of leadership. when you are trying to build a team you have to involve other players even when you don't trust them. how else will you engender chemistry, cohesion and focus? the answer is you won't. look at how badly his teams played between shaq and gasol. he had contempt for his teammates and leaders don't have contempt they try to involve and encourage.

this is anthony's problem. it isn't that every shot he takes he thinks is a good shot. it's that he doesn't understand what it means to build a team culture. he should be interested in sacrificing his own numbers for the sake of making others grow their games.

We seem to be on the same page in regards to Carmelo's issues and how it compares a bit to Kobe. I believe that Kobe was actually far more contentious.

For Melo, I DO think we gave up too much but I do believe he was/is worth a good part of what they gave up and that he certainly is max player talent. Does he need to improve aspects of his game? He certainly does and I hope that he follows through.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Oh god........... I watch other teams because their bench could be starters for but Melo is letting his team down here in New York??? Did I just that Shit??? SMH, keep digging that hole bro, just own up to it during the season.

Still waiting for you to own up for the past 1 1/2 years.

Own what??? I barely post here.................

I apologize if you were not one of the supporters of the Melo trade but I could have sworn you were. We've since gone .470 in games he's played in.

Of course I support the trade, no need to apologize. I don't post that much, so it's not too hard for me to tell you where I stand.

Melo: Supported it, worth way more than anything we gave up
Amare: I think he should be traded, injury prone, indecline, doesn't do much more than PnR
MDA: Hated him, argued with Nix all the time, this season blows up he get's a little "vindication"(doubt it)
Lin: Supported the move, also think Felton pretty much approximates what ever Lin does this season for half the price tag. Ie) Lin 16/7 43% Felton 14/7 41%

Think those are my big sticking points in my mind and the book isn't completely closed on any of those situations, so what do you want me to own right now???
86 games with Melo??? What happened to "small sample size" and what not??? If things fall apart or are under expectations, I'll own anything I said.

If you're saying 86 games (actually 91) is too small a sample size to own up for, then that should already invalidate your comments that critics here will need to own up when Melo plays well this season. (And it's 91 games actually.) You're saying others will need to own up for the success you imagine the team to have in the future but you won't own up to being so far off in the games actually played. I wouldn't have been so harsh if there weren't this hypocrisy.
Small samples are better than no data, although it's not even clear that 91 games should be considered small. We can only analyze available data. There is a 91 game sample against the direction the Melo trade put us in and zero data presently in support of it.

Bonn...Did u not say the best stretch this team have had in 10 years is the 18-6 stretch when Melo led this team???..So why are u complaining???

because the 91 game sample is more important than the 24 game sample. This breaks down to the more simple notion that 91 is a lot bigger than 24.

But your argument is silly because as currently structured, before or after the trade, the Knicks success will not the independent of Amare's injuries...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Oh god........... I watch other teams because their bench could be starters for but Melo is letting his team down here in New York??? Did I just that Shit??? SMH, keep digging that hole bro, just own up to it during the season.

Still waiting for you to own up for the past 1 1/2 years.

Own what??? I barely post here.................

I apologize if you were not one of the supporters of the Melo trade but I could have sworn you were. We've since gone .470 in games he's played in.

Of course I support the trade, no need to apologize. I don't post that much, so it's not too hard for me to tell you where I stand.

Melo: Supported it, worth way more than anything we gave up
Amare: I think he should be traded, injury prone, indecline, doesn't do much more than PnR
MDA: Hated him, argued with Nix all the time, this season blows up he get's a little "vindication"(doubt it)
Lin: Supported the move, also think Felton pretty much approximates what ever Lin does this season for half the price tag. Ie) Lin 16/7 43% Felton 14/7 41%

Think those are my big sticking points in my mind and the book isn't completely closed on any of those situations, so what do you want me to own right now???
86 games with Melo??? What happened to "small sample size" and what not??? If things fall apart or are under expectations, I'll own anything I said.

If you're saying 86 games (actually 91) is too small a sample size to own up for, then that should already invalidate your comments that critics here will need to own up when Melo plays well this season. (And it's 91 games actually.) You're saying others will need to own up for the success you imagine the team to have in the future but you won't own up to being so far off in the games actually played. I wouldn't have been so harsh if there weren't this hypocrisy.
Small samples are better than no data, although it's not even clear that 91 games should be considered small. We can only analyze available data. There is a 91 game sample against the direction the Melo trade put us in and zero data presently in support of it.

Bonn...Did u not say the best stretch this team have had in 10 years is the 18-6 stretch when Melo led this team???..So why are u complaining???

because the 91 game sample is more important than the 24 game sample. This breaks down to the more simple notion that 91 is a lot bigger than 24.

But your argument is silly because as currently structured, before or after the trade, the Knicks success will not the independent of Amare's injuries...

Why bring up the 24 game sample if you won't talk about the 91 game sample?
The Amare acquisition was a mistake like the Melo one was. Each mistake compounds other mistakes.

I brought up the 24 games because you said that was the best stretch the Knicks has had in 10 years...If that statement is true then how is it not a good trade...

Carmelo Anthony for Pau Gasol. Straight up.

Oh, its the 76ers loss, the one where nobody on the team (except Amare) could find the hoop. Of course, ppl want accountability. Trading Melo is the logical conclusion

ramtour420 wrote:Why is this silly thread getting bumped ?

Oh, its the 76ers loss, the one where nobody on the team (except Amare) could find the hoop. Of course, ppl want accountability. Trading Melo is the logical conclusion

Melo hasn't found the hoop in like 5 games,

48 out of 129

Bonn1997 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Why is this silly thread getting bumped ?

Oh, its the 76ers loss, the one where nobody on the team (except Amare) could find the hoop. Of course, ppl want accountability. Trading Melo is the logical conclusion

Nothing to do with the 76ers game. If you scroll back to the first page of this thread, you'll see that I've had this position for a long time.

Not going to happen Bonn, you know that. Dolan likes Melo too much and probably considers the trade that brought him here his baby, so to speak.

IronWillGiroud wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Why is this silly thread getting bumped ?

Oh, its the 76ers loss, the one where nobody on the team (except Amare) could find the hoop. Of course, ppl want accountability. Trading Melo is the logical conclusion

Melo hasn't found the hoop in like 5 games,

48 out of 129

So that means you trade him?