Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Umm, ok well as long as we are replaying the conversation from last time, I believe I responded to that two years ago as well.

Yep, here it is...

"I endorsed Isiah's moves?? I told people we were going to be playoff contenders with Zach Randolph?? So now your going to resort to lying again right GKF? I was protesting Isiah's moves because he wasnt targeting the draft, he was targeting signing players... sound familiar?
Secondly, yes the Pacers and the Knicks were playoff losers. I dont care how proud you are of losing but I cant stand it and I will make sure I call it out when I see it. I think most Knick fans are upset with losing, thats why you hear us boo, yes even in the 90's. After Ewing left we should have scrapped everything and tried to rebuild by getting a player to build around in the draft. Just about every championship winning team in our generation, with the exception of the one Detroit team in '04, has done that. Look it up. I already made this point. So instead of building our team the way just about every other championship team in our generation has done you want to do it the Detroit Pistons way right? DUDE THEY ONLY WON ONCE!
And then to make your point you say that KG and Allen joined Pierce. Yes they joined him after he was drafted by the Celtics. Then you say Pau was there to help Kobe. Yes Kobe was drafted by the Lakers. How can you still not see the pattern. I am truly amazed this is flying completely over your head... I warned you to stop reading when you try to think too much.
Also, the reason we havent been winning is not only because we didnt have the cap space its also because we didnt put good enough players around Ewing, and we didnt have a drafted superstar to build around after Ewing.
Im glad you like losing GKF because more likely than not, your going to be seeing a whole lot more of it."

You should be happy with tonights loss then GKF.

You failed by even remotely comparing trading Ewing for bad contracts with trading bad contracts for flexibility. We didn't do anything wrong with the path Walsh followed. The cupboard was bare. There was little draft picks on the team thanks to Isiah and nobody was giving us any for the players you mentioned. I like how you never bothered addressing the point, but rather talk about me and losing. I already asked you to tell me where we were supposed to get draft picks and you provided me with nothing. The conversation ends there.

Ok, put simply, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph are now, today, integral parts of playoff teams. They could have been traded for draft picks. We traded our two top scorers at that time for garbage.

Crawford was traded for Al Harrington and Zach Randolph was traded for Mardy Collins, Cuttino Mobley, and Tim Thomas. Jamal Crawford averages 24 points per game with an efficiency rating of +19, tonight he was the top scorer of both teams with 23 and oh yea he hit the game winner over Orlando tonight. That is the guy we traded for Al Harrington a subpar bench player averaging, get this, 10 points per game. No I'm not joking. Good trade you say? Wow. Lets move on to the next player. Zach Randolph who averages 18 points per game and 10 rebounds per game shocked the top seeded Spurs team when he was the top scorer of both teams with 25 points and also led both teams in the rebounding department with 14 rebounds. Again, he led both teams in points and rebounds and got the win opposing a team that includes Tim Duncan on its roster. That is the guy we traded for dudes who are not even in the NBA anymore. Sounds like some great moves the Knicks made right?

Wow I really have to thank you. I didnt realize just how bad those trades are until you forced me to get the stats and look back. You have really helped me open my eyes. Wow its so obvious now that you are wrong. Thank you for this.

Oh and just for comparisons sake, Carmelo Anthony had 15points and 11 rebounds and Amare had 7 points tonight. Chauncey Billups was injured... again.

subzero0 wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Umm, ok well as long as we are replaying the conversation from last time, I believe I responded to that two years ago as well.

Yep, here it is...

"I endorsed Isiah's moves?? I told people we were going to be playoff contenders with Zach Randolph?? So now your going to resort to lying again right GKF? I was protesting Isiah's moves because he wasnt targeting the draft, he was targeting signing players... sound familiar?
Secondly, yes the Pacers and the Knicks were playoff losers. I dont care how proud you are of losing but I cant stand it and I will make sure I call it out when I see it. I think most Knick fans are upset with losing, thats why you hear us boo, yes even in the 90's. After Ewing left we should have scrapped everything and tried to rebuild by getting a player to build around in the draft. Just about every championship winning team in our generation, with the exception of the one Detroit team in '04, has done that. Look it up. I already made this point. So instead of building our team the way just about every other championship team in our generation has done you want to do it the Detroit Pistons way right? DUDE THEY ONLY WON ONCE!
And then to make your point you say that KG and Allen joined Pierce. Yes they joined him after he was drafted by the Celtics. Then you say Pau was there to help Kobe. Yes Kobe was drafted by the Lakers. How can you still not see the pattern. I am truly amazed this is flying completely over your head... I warned you to stop reading when you try to think too much.
Also, the reason we havent been winning is not only because we didnt have the cap space its also because we didnt put good enough players around Ewing, and we didnt have a drafted superstar to build around after Ewing.
Im glad you like losing GKF because more likely than not, your going to be seeing a whole lot more of it."

You should be happy with tonights loss then GKF.

You failed by even remotely comparing trading Ewing for bad contracts with trading bad contracts for flexibility. We didn't do anything wrong with the path Walsh followed. The cupboard was bare. There was little draft picks on the team thanks to Isiah and nobody was giving us any for the players you mentioned. I like how you never bothered addressing the point, but rather talk about me and losing. I already asked you to tell me where we were supposed to get draft picks and you provided me with nothing. The conversation ends there.

Ok, put simply, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph are now, today, integral parts of playoff teams. They could have been traded for draft picks. We traded our two top scorers at that time for garbage.

Crawford was traded for Al Harrington and Zach Randolph was traded for Mardy Collins, Cuttino Mobley, and Tim Thomas. Jamal Crawford averages 24 points per game with an efficiency rating of +19, tonight he was the top scorer of both teams with 23 and oh yea he hit the game winner over Orlando tonight. That is the guy we traded for Al Harrington a subpar bench player averaging, get this, 10 points per game. No I'm not joking. Good trade you say? Wow. Lets move on to the next player. Zach Randolph who averages 18 points per game and 10 rebounds per game shocked the top seeded Spurs team when he was the top scorer of both teams with 25 points and also led both teams in the rebounding department with 14 rebounds. Again, he led both teams in points and rebounds and got the win opposing a team that includes Tim Duncan on its roster. That is the guy we traded for dudes who are not even in the NBA anymore. Sounds like some great moves the Knicks made right?

Wow I really have to thank you. I didnt realize just how bad those trades are until you forced me to get the stats and look back. You have really helped me open my eyes. Wow its so obvious now that you are wrong. Thank you for this.

Oh and just for comparisons sake, Carmelo Anthony had 15points and 11 rebounds and Amare had 7 points tonight. Chauncey Billups was injured... again.

You re-posted the same old once again. Good job.

I think you fail to realize that Jamal Crawford was traded by the Golden State Warriors for an injured Speedy Claxton. Yeah, remember Claxton? That guy. Then superstar Zach Randolph was traded by the Los Angeles Clippers for - get this - Quentin Richardson, who later became Craig Smith. This was after similar "stellar" seasons by these players. Two bad teams couldn't find one draft pick for either of these guys on the market. The same guys you praise and overrate as "integral parts of playoff teams". The same playoff teams you call PLAYOFF LOSERS because those teams are never winning an NBA championship. Laughable at best, hypocritical at worst.

I don't care about comparisons. I would rather have Stoudemire and Carmelo and injured Billups than Crawford and Randolph any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

subzero0 wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Umm, ok well as long as we are replaying the conversation from last time, I believe I responded to that two years ago as well.

Yep, here it is...

"I endorsed Isiah's moves?? I told people we were going to be playoff contenders with Zach Randolph?? So now your going to resort to lying again right GKF? I was protesting Isiah's moves because he wasnt targeting the draft, he was targeting signing players... sound familiar?
Secondly, yes the Pacers and the Knicks were playoff losers. I dont care how proud you are of losing but I cant stand it and I will make sure I call it out when I see it. I think most Knick fans are upset with losing, thats why you hear us boo, yes even in the 90's. After Ewing left we should have scrapped everything and tried to rebuild by getting a player to build around in the draft. Just about every championship winning team in our generation, with the exception of the one Detroit team in '04, has done that. Look it up. I already made this point. So instead of building our team the way just about every other championship team in our generation has done you want to do it the Detroit Pistons way right? DUDE THEY ONLY WON ONCE!
And then to make your point you say that KG and Allen joined Pierce. Yes they joined him after he was drafted by the Celtics. Then you say Pau was there to help Kobe. Yes Kobe was drafted by the Lakers. How can you still not see the pattern. I am truly amazed this is flying completely over your head... I warned you to stop reading when you try to think too much.
Also, the reason we havent been winning is not only because we didnt have the cap space its also because we didnt put good enough players around Ewing, and we didnt have a drafted superstar to build around after Ewing.
Im glad you like losing GKF because more likely than not, your going to be seeing a whole lot more of it."

You should be happy with tonights loss then GKF.

You failed by even remotely comparing trading Ewing for bad contracts with trading bad contracts for flexibility. We didn't do anything wrong with the path Walsh followed. The cupboard was bare. There was little draft picks on the team thanks to Isiah and nobody was giving us any for the players you mentioned. I like how you never bothered addressing the point, but rather talk about me and losing. I already asked you to tell me where we were supposed to get draft picks and you provided me with nothing. The conversation ends there.

Ok, put simply, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph are now, today, integral parts of playoff teams. They could have been traded for draft picks. We traded our two top scorers at that time for garbage.

Crawford was traded for Al Harrington and Zach Randolph was traded for Mardy Collins, Cuttino Mobley, and Tim Thomas. Jamal Crawford averages 24 points per game with an efficiency rating of +19, tonight he was the top scorer of both teams with 23 and oh yea he hit the game winner over Orlando tonight. That is the guy we traded for Al Harrington a subpar bench player averaging, get this, 10 points per game. No I'm not joking. Good trade you say? Wow. Lets move on to the next player. Zach Randolph who averages 18 points per game and 10 rebounds per game shocked the top seeded Spurs team when he was the top scorer of both teams with 25 points and also led both teams in the rebounding department with 14 rebounds. Again, he led both teams in points and rebounds and got the win opposing a team that includes Tim Duncan on its roster. That is the guy we traded for dudes who are not even in the NBA anymore. Sounds like some great moves the Knicks made right?

Wow I really have to thank you. I didnt realize just how bad those trades are until you forced me to get the stats and look back. You have really helped me open my eyes. Wow its so obvious now that you are wrong. Thank you for this.

Oh and just for comparisons sake, Carmelo Anthony had 15points and 11 rebounds and Amare had 7 points tonight. Chauncey Billups was injured... again.

You re-posted the same old once again. Good job.

I think you fail to realize that Jamal Crawford was traded by the Golden State Warriors for an injured Speedy Claxton. Yeah, remember Claxton? That guy. Then superstar Zach Randolph was traded by the Los Angeles Clippers for - get this - Quentin Richardson, who later became Craig Smith. This was after similar "stellar" seasons by these players. Two bad teams couldn't find one draft pick for either of these guys on the market. The same guys you praise and overrate as "integral parts of playoff teams". The same playoff teams you call PLAYOFF LOSERS because those teams are never winning an NBA championship. Laughable at best, hypocritical at worst.

I don't care about comparisons. I would rather have Stoudemire and Carmelo and injured Billups than Crawford and Randolph any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Like I mentioned before those guys can absolutely be traded for picks. But let me play devils advocate here, if you say that these players are the pits, which they arent, and that they cant possibly help a playoff team, which they obviously are, then ok leave them on the Knicks team. Certainly players as horrible as they are will hurt our record right, I mean if these players are the absolute worse then we should have kept them on the team so that the winning percentage of the Knicks would be low. The lower the winning percentage, the better the pick we get. The better the pick we get the better chance we have at getting a championship level player with bird rights. A player with larry bird rights we can resign without it counting against our cap. That would then allow us to sign 2 max championship level players around that player and still have enough to surround those three players with talented role players. But oh no, lets trade the two top scorers for garbage because that is a much better option.

No matter how you slice it, the trades the Knicks made were bad ones. The Knicks traded down in multiple trades to get LeBron and it blew up in their face. Whenever you pull the trigger on a trade you should be trading up not down. But as I predicted years ago the Knicks are once again perennial playoff losers.

Or is it that the Knicks should have gotten extra draft picks for trading Zbo and Crawful?

Thin. Very thin.

subzero0 wrote:

martin wrote:Crawford plays 10 years in the league, doesn't sniff 1 playoff game, and now he hits a shot that was so far off that it banked in and that's good enough to pronounce that the Knicks should have kept him and built a team around he and Zbo?

Or is it that the Knicks should have gotten extra draft picks for trading Zbo and Crawful?

Thin. Very thin.

The Knicks could have gotten more for Crawford and Zach. If these guys were as bad as you say they are then here, allow me to submit something I posted a little earlier...

"Again, you seem to be missing the point. Like I mentioned before those guys can absolutely be traded for picks. But let me play devils advocate here, if you say that these players are the pits, which they arent, and that they cant possibly help a playoff team, which they obviously are, then ok leave them on the Knicks team. Certainly players as horrible as they are will hurt our record right, I mean if these players are the absolute worse then we should have kept them on the team so that the winning percentage of the Knicks would be low. The lower the winning percentage, the better the pick we get. The better the pick we get the better chance we have at getting a championship level player with bird rights. A player with larry bird rights we can resign without it counting against our cap. That would then allow us to sign 2 max championship level players around that player and still have enough to surround those three players with talented role players. But oh no, lets trade the two top scorers for garbage because that is a much better option.
No matter how you slice it, the trades the Knicks made were bad ones. The Knicks traded down in multiple trades to get LeBron and it blew up in their face. Whenever you pull the trigger on a trade you should be trading up not down. But as I predicted years ago the Knicks are once again perennial playoff losers."

I think the reality of a team with Crawford and Zbo is somewhere more in the middle:

I believe they have Lee, Chandler, Curry and are salary capped out. That team maxes out some place around 40+ wins, so that means your picks are some place in the 13-16 range.

You just missed out on Amare and Melo and you certainly do not have a #1-3 pick.

The bottom line is that you are arguing for Crawford and Zbo over Amare and Melo.

VCoug wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

martin wrote:Crawford plays 10 years in the league, doesn't sniff 1 playoff game, and now he hits a shot that was so far off that it banked in and that's good enough to pronounce that the Knicks should have kept him and built a team around he and Zbo?

Or is it that the Knicks should have gotten extra draft picks for trading Zbo and Crawful?

Thin. Very thin.

The Knicks could have gotten more for Crawford and Zach. If these guys were as bad as you say they are then here, allow me to submit something I posted a little earlier...

"Again, you seem to be missing the point. Like I mentioned before those guys can absolutely be traded for picks. But let me play devils advocate here, if you say that these players are the pits, which they arent, and that they cant possibly help a playoff team, which they obviously are, then ok leave them on the Knicks team. Certainly players as horrible as they are will hurt our record right, I mean if these players are the absolute worse then we should have kept them on the team so that the winning percentage of the Knicks would be low. The lower the winning percentage, the better the pick we get. The better the pick we get the better chance we have at getting a championship level player with bird rights. A player with larry bird rights we can resign without it counting against our cap. That would then allow us to sign 2 max championship level players around that player and still have enough to surround those three players with talented role players. But oh no, lets trade the two top scorers for garbage because that is a much better option.
No matter how you slice it, the trades the Knicks made were bad ones. The Knicks traded down in multiple trades to get LeBron and it blew up in their face. Whenever you pull the trigger on a trade you should be trading up not down. But as I predicted years ago the Knicks are once again perennial playoff losers."

What are you basing this on? Crawford's been traded for Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Frank Williams and Cezary Trybanski; Al Harringont; and Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. ZBo's been traded for Channing Frye, Steve Francis and a future second-round draft pick; Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley; and Quentin Richardson. When the Knicks traded them away, most people were shocked that other teams were willing to take their contracts off our hands. And currently, they're playing for the fifth best team in the East and the eighth best team in the West.

Cut it out. You are exaggerating by saying people were shocked, please vcoug, dont reflect how you felt on "most people". All you have proven here was that other teams made bad trades too. That doesn't refute the fact that the Knicks are also one of the teams that made bad trades. The teams that they are playing for now are doing just a bit better than the Knicks are currently so its pretty hard to see what point you are making here. You are pretty weak on both points.

subzero0 wrote:The fact is if those are the guys you have on your team you either trade for picks or leave them there. Doing anything else would put you in perennial playoff exit limbo. Atleast with that team you noted there the Knicks have a chance at getting a pick that would be a championship level player.

I reallly don't understand what the above means. No one is trading Crawford or Zbo for a #1-3 pick. In fact, Atlanta tried to trade Crawford this season and failed.

subzero0 wrote:I am not arguing for having Crawford and Zach over Amare and Melo, but if I were would it not be a bad point to make? I think it is very bold of you to say that this is out of the question. The Knicks as of now are hoping just to not get swept out of the playoffs. Crawford and Zachs teams would not be in contention in their respective series without them, for that matter those teams wouldnt have even made it to the playoffs without them.

Putting for the notion that the Knicks are getting swept and ALT and Grizz are up is not really keeping any discussion within perspective. Amare: out; Billups: out.

Crawford is a good 6th man. Period. He has NEVER NEVER NEVER established himself as a good starter no less someone who leads a team (no less a playoff team). Zbo is better and has found a good place with many of the right players around him, but to even put him in the same class as Melo and Amare is foolish; has he even been past the first round of playoffs?

subzero0 wrote:Martin, your a software architect like me. Think of this logically. If just about every championship team in the past two decades started with first getting a championship player with their rights and then added to that player with free agency then shouldnt the Knicks atleast try to follow the same blueprint? Try to look at this as a discrete mathematics problem. This is a science, there is a formula to this. Statistically speaking, the Knicks have a greater chance of winning a championship by trying to follow the aforementioned blueprint than they have at winning the current series with the Celtics.

The Knicks would never been in the top of the lottery with Jamal and Zbo on team with the likes of Lee, Chandler, etc. unless Isiah kept coaching and he didn't trade the picks away. They would be fringe playoff team in the East, and if they didn't make playoffs they would grab a #10-12 pick. No team is trading their #1-3 for Jamal or ZBo. No way no how. BTW, both Amare and Melo either were or should have been #1-3 picks, so what's the diff?

The last proof of pudding: Knicks actually had both Zbo and Jamal and SUCKED. Why keep them?

Papabear wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:You're right. We should have built around the star duo of Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford.

Great bump btw. Just what we need around here - false bravado.

Papabear Says

What do we have now??

The two games our starters started, we had a playoff team that could have pulled out two on the road against a top 5 team in the NBA.

"Jamal Crawford averages 24 points per game with an efficiency rating of +19, a few nights ago he was the top scorer of both teams with 23 and oh yea he hit the game winner over Orlando. That is the guy we traded for Al Harrington a subpar bench player averaging, get this, 10 points per game. No I'm not joking. Good trade you say? Wow. Lets move on to the next player. Zach Randolph who averages 18 points per game and 10 rebounds per game shocked the top seeded Spurs team when he was the top scorer of both teams with 25 points and also led both teams in the rebounding department with 14 rebounds. Again, he led both teams in points and rebounds and got the win opposing a team that includes Tim Duncan on its roster. That is the guy we traded for dudes who are not even in the NBA anymore."

Since I wrote that right here in this forum lets fast forward a bit to see what has happened since. Whats this? Jamal Crawford again was the top scorer of both teams when he led the Atlanta Hawks over the Orlando Magic, again... The Hawks now have a whopping 3-1 lead over the Orlando Magic... A team many favored to win a championship... A team with Dwight Howard... Jamal was the leading scorer again... But what am I talking about right? How can I dare say that Jamal Crawford for Al Harrington is a bad deal, it is obvious from Al Harrington's whopping 10points a game that the Knicks made out like bandits.

But lets move on and see how Zach did since I last posted. Whats this? Zach Randolph led the Grizzles to yet another victory over the Spurs. That cant be right can it? That means they now lead the series 2-1 over the San Antonio Spurs. Yes, the same San Antonio Spurs that is a better team than the Celtics. Go ahead, look it up my friend. While your checking take a look at Zach's stats. It appears he dominated, he was the leading scorer over both teams... again... But oh no, its obviously a better move to get rid of him for three dudes that dont even suit up. If you want to tell me that these guys cannot be traded for anything better, than I am sorry, but I dont believe you.

Amare is in traction, Carmelo is getting a tan and hitting golf balls, and Billups is getting fitted for a new walking cane and monocle. Their vaunted offense should be of good use on the canasta boards this summer.

But once again I am not arguing that changes shouldn't have been made. On the contrary, I argue that changes should be made only with the intent of getting draft picks, they should not be made with the sole intent of going after the free agency. If Walsh makes trades without giving up picks then I would have been happy. But he mortgaged the Knicks future and we are going to have to suffer with this for a good decade now. We wont have the room to sign another young max free agent and a good supporting cast. We will not be "bad" enough to go after young talent with their rights.

What the Knicks should do right now is wait to see who gets picks 1-3 and give them an offer that they cant refuse. Make a trade with one of them. Over 90% of every team in the past two decades won a championship by first getting a young player with their bird rights and then using free agency to supplement that player. That is how a championship team is built. If you guys want to argue that the Knicks made all the right moves here then watch as the next few years turn to disappointment and failed hopes. If you want a championship team, then you follow the blueprint.

subzero0 wrote:...also remember this. Walsh took the very first trades that came across his desk and took anything he can find because he was scrambling to get room for LeBron James. So don't tell me these were the best trades that would ever have been available. Thats just untrue, Im sorry but it is. Summer of LeBron was just a horrible plan, it really was.

The net effect was Amare and Melo. Certainly didn't hit jackpot, but you would rather roll with Jamal and ZBo?

Walsh certainly gambled, no one doubts that. He tried to fast-track new era. Zbo has turned out to be a better player than he was in NY, but recall that this is his first playoffs since and there was good indication that he as a player could have gone south ala Curry. Jamal never showed that he could do much to put a dent in anything but a .500 team if he was the starting SG. Knicks would have hovered around .500 and had pick 12-17 every other year... and then what?

We keep both and hear a million quotes about LeBron saying that he would certainly have been temped by coming to NY but he couldn't because they didn't have cap space so he chose MIA. Same from Wade and Bosh and Amare and Melo.