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knicks1248
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7/22/2009  1:39 AM
If you look at walsh and what he did in indi, I see nothing to get excited about..he kept them competitive and for the most part a playoff team but after they went to the finals they were a disappointment thereafter..Never traded smits or miller despite a noticeable decline. Walsh is too conservative bottom line..low risk reaps low rewards.
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GKFv2
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7/22/2009  1:53 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

If you look at walsh and what he did in indi, I see nothing to get excited about..he kept them competitive and for the most part a playoff team but after they went to the finals they were a disappointment thereafter..Never traded smits or miller despite a noticeable decline. Walsh is too conservative bottom line..low risk reaps low rewards.

He made the playoffs in all but 4 of his 17 years as GM and he apparently is an average GM now. Nice.
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7/22/2009  7:13 AM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by knicks1248:

If you look at walsh and what he did in indi, I see nothing to get excited about..he kept them competitive and for the most part a playoff team but after they went to the finals they were a disappointment thereafter..Never traded smits or miller despite a noticeable decline. Walsh is too conservative bottom line..low risk reaps low rewards.

He made the playoffs in all but 4 of his 17 years as GM and he apparently is an average GM now. Nice.

even if you accept that Walsh is conservative, that is what we need given we saw what a flashy-make-moves-at-any-cost GM does when combined with Dolan's demand for immediate satisfaction.

we've tried the instant rebuild swing for the fences with every trade @ fa signing.

Walsh seems to have the stature to tell Dolan there is a right way to rebuild. Be glad for that.
fishmike
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7/22/2009  7:54 AM
Ainge is a joke and his moves (except one) were not impressive. He walked into a playoff team and was on the recieving end of the steal of the century in KG. If that trade doesnt happen and fall into his lap he's ranked among the WORST gms.

And now we take credit away from DW for trusting the people HE PUT IN PLACE when building a team? So he got guys Larry or Isiah wanted is a bad thing? Those were his coaches. Seems to me he did everything possible to set his coaches up for success no?

Some of the guys listed as ahead of DW laughable as GMs

Dumars???? Joe Dumars? Like the guy in Detroit? The guy that drafted Darko in front of Melo, Bosh, Wade, Kaman, Hinrich, etc...
The guy that traded one of the best guards in the league in Billups for a totally washed up Allen Iverson instantly sending his team into rebuild mode?

Yes.. I can only imagine how Knick fans would react to those moves. To bad we dont have that guy.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  8:42 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by fishmike:

So what hill did in the ncaa and what gallo did overseas means nothing? You make mda and walsh sounsd like a couple of idiots. Walsh is regarded as a top 3 or 4 gm in the sport. I think he's got a clue

I'm not sure about your ranking. I know he is considered one of the most respected gms in the NBA which isn't the same as top. He has been stated also as one of the most overrated GMs in the sport. Larry Brown took credit for personnel moves during his tenture with the Pacers. Walsh doesn't deny it. I know Isiah was the guy behind the O'Neal trade with Walsh reluntanct to give up Davis for an unproven talent. He let Isiah make the call of Fred Jones over Prince who his scouts wanted. Walsh said he normally let his staff and coach make personnel choices. He gives it the blessing so to speak. I know he made decisions when Bird coach because Bird wanted no part of that responsbility. When Bird returned to the organization, he wanted to make the calls. Walsh stated back in spring that he will look to get more involve with scouting because he hasn't personally scouted in awhile. He was very active in the 80s. Even with Gallo, Walsh relied on Wilson, Isiah and Grunwald to make that call. More so Grunwald who is in charge of scouting.

In Ny we do the same things over and over again. I respect your opinion Pharz so I'm not going after you but this just reminds me so much of the LB arguments from a couple years ago. When the guy comes here and doesn't turn us around we immediately start to discredit their record.

As for the draft selections. As GM it doesn't matter if a player is your suggestion or someone else's. It doesn't matter who gets credit for finding a prospect. Your job is to hire the right people to do the job. If you trust them to do the job, they in turn make good selections, then you as a GM have done your job.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  8:58 AM
Let's look at it this way. Let's say we allow Walsh an extra year to go through with his plan for 2010. Let's say he continues along this path and in the summer of 2010 every free-agent shoots us down, dolan gets ticked off and fires him. What situation does the new savior GM come into?

Cap space. At least 3 first rounders and 2 lottery picks on the roster(purposefully excluding Sessions, Lee and Nate on this one), expiring contracts and cap space. So now the next GM has to build the team from this point. Do you think that new GM would feel trapped in a rut that he can't get out of? Or do you think the new GM would be happy with cap space a young team and expiring contracts?
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  9:04 AM
Pacers made the playoffs 16 of the 17 years DW ran the team.

If you want to say Isiah did this or Larry Brown did that fine. That to me is a positive. The GM/Pres puts people around him he trusts, then supports them and give them what they need to succeed. Hey look.. pretty much everyone of DWs teams succeeded.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  9:04 AM
Another reason why you can't jump to conclusions after one season. I'm not endorsing Gallinari, I have no idea what to expect from him. But since we are discrediting Walsh based on hypotheticals and assumptions, let's make another one. What happens if Gallinari turns out to be a star in the making? What happens if Hill does the same? What does that do to the perception of Walsh and the job he has done?
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McK1
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7/22/2009  9:09 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Ainge is a joke and his moves (except one) were not impressive. He walked into a playoff team and was on the recieving end of the steal of the century in KG. If that trade doesnt happen and fall into his lap he's ranked among the WORST gms.

And now we take credit away from DW for trusting the people HE PUT IN PLACE when building a team? So he got guys Larry or Isiah wanted is a bad thing? Those were his coaches. Seems to me he did everything possible to set his coaches up for success no?

Some of the guys listed as ahead of DW laughable as GMs

Dumars???? Joe Dumars? Like the guy in Detroit? The guy that drafted Darko in front of Melo, Bosh, Wade, Kaman, Hinrich, etc...
The guy that traded one of the best guards in the league in Billups for a totally washed up Allen Iverson instantly sending his team into rebuild mode?

you ever stop to think that maybe just maybe that was by design!

Trading billups cleared a ton of cap for a team whose run was over and was headed down.

It also got Stuckey the necessary time on the court at the 1 to develop further

he let dice walk and Sheed walk this summer.

drafting Darko was a huge mistake but his overall draft record is good. Walsh's draft record is nothing to write home about.

As for Ainge

people keep knocking the KG trade. Wolves were coming off a 20 win season and were looking to rebuild.
Ainge gave up 2 firsts a young 20-10pf in Al Jefferson, another good young forward in Ryan Gomes, and 2 former highly touted HS guard prospects in Telfair and Green and Ratliff's expiring.

The KG trade was much more balanced than the Shaq trade the Gasol trade or the Barkley trade that sent him to Phoenix years ago.
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McK1
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7/22/2009  9:16 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Pacers made the playoffs 16 of the 17 years DW ran the team.

If you want to say Isiah did this or Larry Brown did that fine. That to me is a positive. The GM/Pres puts people around him he trusts, then supports them and give them what they need to succeed. Hey look.. pretty much everyone of DWs teams succeeded.

14 of 17

http://www.nba.com/pacers/history/franchise_history.html

and for most of those years they were mid to low seeds.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-22-2009 09:17 AM]
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knicks1248
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7/22/2009  9:29 AM
Bip I would then give him a little more credibility...but that would more so be a MDA pick rather then walsh hand picking him his self. At the same time if the Tyler hansborough or any of the 5 after Hill develope in better players he can easily be criticize as well. So as we all already know "There's a thin line btwn love and hate"
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McK1
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7/22/2009  9:35 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Let's look at it this way. Let's say we allow Walsh an extra year to go through with his plan for 2010. Let's say he continues along this path and in the summer of 2010 every free-agent shoots us down, dolan gets ticked off and fires him. What situation does the new savior GM come into?

Cap space. At least 3 first rounders and 2 lottery picks on the roster(purposefully excluding Sessions, Lee and Nate on this one), expiring contracts and cap space. So now the next GM has to build the team from this point. Do you think that new GM would feel trapped in a rut that he can't get out of? Or do you think the new GM would be happy with cap space a young team and expiring contracts?

so thanking Walsh for what he has done to clear caproom and going forward with a younger contemporary isn't such a bad thing then?
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martin
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7/22/2009  9:44 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

Bip I would then give him a little more credibility...but that would more so be a MDA pick rather then walsh hand picking him his self. At the same time if the Tyler hansborough or any of the 5 after Hill develope in better players he can easily be criticize as well. So as we all already know "There's a thin line btwn love and hate"

given that criteria, every GM could be criticized. Every year. Unless it was the year they had the #1 and drafted Shaq or something like it.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  9:49 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

Bip I would then give him a little more credibility...but that would more so be a MDA pick rather then walsh hand picking him his self. At the same time if the Tyler hansborough or any of the 5 after Hill develope in better players he can easily be criticize as well. So as we all already know "There's a thin line btwn love and hate"

Exactly, so why are we criticizing him now. That's my whole point. Don't you have to give the guy time to have his moves develop before we criticize or praise. All the criticism he's getting is based on hypotheticals and not reality.

As for the 2nd part of your post, this to me has been 100% of the problem for the Knicks over the years. We forget that this is a team game and not one against the other. Who cares who made the selection and who didn't. To build this team we need a group of people that can make the right decisions. We don't need the coach pitted against the GM trying to gain credit for good picks or pass blame for bad picks. It doesn't matter if Walsh made the pick, D'Antoni or the lowest scout on the totem pole. In the end, it's a team selection and they all get credit or blame. If a rookie scout picks out the next Kobe Bryant and we draft him 25th and win 18 titles, then that rookie scout gets credit for a great scouting eye. The coaching/scouting team gets credit for listening. The GM gets credit for hiring/retaining a staff that includes the rookie scout that was smart enough to make the decision.

We have to get back to that 70's Knicks mentality. We are in this as an organization. The Spurs do this. The Jazz do this. The Lakers do this. No more blaming individuals and firing coaches after a year or firing GM's after a year. We are never going to get anywhere with that approach.
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  9:54 AM
MK... go ahead and tell me Dumars did a good trading Billups. Please go on record with that. The trade was a joke. He got NOTHING back. NOTHING. Billups then takes Denver to a game 7 against the Lakers. Dumars also set that franchise back 15 years in blowing that draft.

You kill DW's plan and think he should go get someone like Baron Davis, but when Dumars dumps Billups and gets nothing back for the NBA finals MVP and one of the league's elite guards its ok because its "part of a bigger plan."

Colengelo? The guy that traded Kidd for Mabury? Whats he won?

Sorry.. you may disagree with DW's philosophy or be unimpressed by 14 out 17 years of playoffs (15 out of 15 if we are rounding) but Dumars is not a better GM. Dumars has a title. Thats a great accomplishment. Overall? Dumars is forced to rebuild because of his own mistakes. End of story. If Melo or Wade is on the roster, Billups is still there along with the rest. One blunder leads to another.

I dont have a problem with you knocking DWs moves. Thats what fans do. But he's got a good body of work and he's not a middle of the road GM as you would imply. His body of work puts him up there among the best.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  9:55 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bippity10:

Let's look at it this way. Let's say we allow Walsh an extra year to go through with his plan for 2010. Let's say he continues along this path and in the summer of 2010 every free-agent shoots us down, dolan gets ticked off and fires him. What situation does the new savior GM come into?

Cap space. At least 3 first rounders and 2 lottery picks on the roster(purposefully excluding Sessions, Lee and Nate on this one), expiring contracts and cap space. So now the next GM has to build the team from this point. Do you think that new GM would feel trapped in a rut that he can't get out of? Or do you think the new GM would be happy with cap space a young team and expiring contracts?

so thanking Walsh for what he has done to clear caproom and going forward with a younger contemporary isn't such a bad thing then?

I love when people answer a question with a question. How about this, you answer my question and then I will answer any follow-up points or questions that you may have.
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7/22/2009  9:55 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by martin:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by martin:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by martin:
Posted by McK1:

ainge started off real shaky but he stockpiled alot of picks and talent to be able to make the 2 trades he made. Al jefferson in the mid first. Gomes in the 2nd. He bought the suns pick for rondo. Got a first out of the heat for walker after he brought him back to appease pierce and make the playoffs in 05. He even got the best of Jerry West in that Banks and Perkins for Troy Bell and somebody else deal.

Im with GSTK....

I think you are implying that we should give Walsh at least 3 years of **** ups before we can really start to judge him.

Ainge in Boston:

03-04 Ainge's first season in Boston they made the play-offs.
04-05 Ainge's 2nd season in Boston, the Celtics won their first Atlantic division title under him.
05-06 lottery
06-07 lottery
07-08 World Champs
08-09 lose KG for 2nd half of season and still take eventual ECF's 7 games in the 2nd rd.

Implying Walsh should do it the Ainge way means he would have already failed.



[Edited by - McK1 on 07-21-2009 9:23 PM]

why?

did the Knicks make the play-offs?

you are suggesting that Walsh, who inherited a 23-win team, should be fired after 1 year because he didn't make the playoffs?

nope. I'm suggesting Walsh isn't on Ainge's level when ranking exec's.

That is (1) BAD suggestion you just put down on paper.

Unfortunately - you could be more wrong.

Ainge on Walsh's level yes and Eddy Curry is light years ahead of Patrick Ewing.
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7/22/2009  10:01 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Ainge is a joke and his moves (except one) were not impressive. He walked into a playoff team and was on the recieving end of the steal of the century in KG. If that trade doesnt happen and fall into his lap he's ranked among the WORST gms.

And now we take credit away from DW for trusting the people HE PUT IN PLACE when building a team? So he got guys Larry or Isiah wanted is a bad thing? Those were his coaches. Seems to me he did everything possible to set his coaches up for success no?

Some of the guys listed as ahead of DW laughable as GMs

Dumars???? Joe Dumars? Like the guy in Detroit? The guy that drafted Darko in front of Melo, Bosh, Wade, Kaman, Hinrich, etc...
The guy that traded one of the best guards in the league in Billups for a totally washed up Allen Iverson instantly sending his team into rebuild mode?

Yes.. I can only imagine how Knick fans would react to those moves. To bad we dont have that guy.

although i'm not a fan of either, ainge + dumars did build title teams and perennial contenders...and both made mistakes which both have overcome...so in the nba, they should be considered top flight gm's...
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7/22/2009  10:22 AM
Posted by fishmike:

MK... go ahead and tell me Dumars did a good trading Billups. Please go on record with that. The trade was a joke. He got NOTHING back. NOTHING. Billups then takes Denver to a game 7 against the Lakers. Dumars also set that franchise back 15 years in blowing that draft.

YES HE DID A GOOD THING TRADING BILLUPS

Billups was the NBA Finals MVP in 0 freaking 4. He got traded in 08 after years of flaming out in the ECF's. Meanwhile a vet team kept getting older and older and were clearly past the point of being able to compete for a title together.
Posted by fishmike:



You kill DW's plan and think he should go get someone like Baron Davis, but when Dumars dumps Billups and gets nothing back for the NBA finals MVP and one of the league's elite guards its ok because its "part of a bigger plan."

Pistons were at the end. Walsh is at the beginning. Walsh's Knicks won't sniff anywhere near where Dumars' teams have been at any point in his tenure with Ramon Sessions so yeah get a Baron

Posted by fishmike:

Colengelo? The guy that traded Kidd for Mabury? Whats he won?

He is also the guy who built the teams MDA won with.
Posted by fishmike:


Sorry.. you may disagree with DW's philosophy or be unimpressed by 14 out 17 years of playoffs (15 out of 15 if we are rounding) but Dumars is not a better GM. Dumars has a title. Thats a great accomplishment. Overall? Dumars is forced to rebuild because of his own mistakes. End of story. If Melo or Wade is on the roster, Billups is still there along with the rest. One blunder leads to another.

Billups was finished in Detroit plain and simple. You act as if he ressurrected Denver from the doldrums. They were already a 50 win team and a play-off team without there starting center and a gimpy starting pf. They got Martin and Nene back this year and had em healthy for a full season and voila - full potential of team recognized.

What has Walsh done the last 9 years to say he is currently better than Dumars?
Posted by fishmike:


I dont have a problem with you knocking DWs moves. Thats what fans do. But he's got a good body of work and he's not a middle of the road GM as you would imply. His body of work puts him up there among the best.

And when his name comes up for the Hall his entire body of work will be recognized. When we're talking about the last 3,5,7,9 years Walsh's track record over that time does not put him in the top 5 or 10 especially since he has been semi retired since 03.
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Bippity10
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7/22/2009  10:22 AM
Every GM makes mistakes(especially in the draft). You just pray that your mistakes don't put you into a financial hole. The key to building an organization is to have stability. You can't have stability if you fire every GM and every coach every time they don't do things the way you want them to. If they put you in a bad position, you can can them. If they don't show progress on their plan after a couple years you fire them. But if the worst your GM has done is filled your roster with young talent, cleared out most of your bad contracts, and put you in position to be a player in the free-agent market, then please tell me, what are we complaining about?
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