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Damn....francis cried after the game last night
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fishmike
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4/10/2006  1:44 PM
Originally posted by oohah:

That might be believable if you ever assigned one iota of blame to LB, or if you had ever suggested that it was possible that LB has done something wrong this season. But for everything he has done you have an explanation for how it is essential to future success. At least those other coaches were defensible, this season is indefensible, no matter who you point the finger at. LB is the coach, he gets the W's and the L's for a reason. No, it is not all in the service of future victories.

Please tell me: has LB done anything detrimental to the success of this team that doesn't have a qualifier behind it? This I'd like to see!

If you are decribing someone as blaming only LB, then you are describing someone besides me. I have commented about IT's failings as well. I don't care for Marbury. I have said this team was poor since early season. I just blame LB for making them extra-bad. If he had done even a mediocre job, I would have been fine with him for this season.

oohah
why? Thats the point your missing. LB doesnt matter. Just like Lenny, Herb and Chaney didnt matter. Guys quit on Lenny and Herb also. Same guys made the same bad plays. Marbury didnt buy into DAntoni's system. Penny admitted neither of them did. How sad when players decide to buy or not buy into a coach's philosophy. Looks like Mike D was right huh? I'm confident when Marbury is gone next year and we are winning with a PG possesing far less "talent" people will see Larry was right as well.

Until the culture changes its just going to be another coach's fault, and another, and another.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Bonn1997
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4/10/2006  1:48 PM
If we get a coach who plays high effort guys consistently above lazy players, I won't blame him--regardless of the W-L record. If we get team ownership and a GM who doesn't acquire lazy guys, that would be even better. But the two issues are both problematic.
Bippity10
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4/10/2006  2:08 PM
Bonn: if it was that easy every coach on the planet would do it, but it's not always that easy. Especially our situation. Number one half the line-up doesn't play hard. Number 2 we have a lot of young guys. And since bball is a game of habits we can't just hand the minutes to the young guys. This has been done in the NBA for the better part of a decade and that is why you have so many guys in the NBA with tremendous skills and no idea how to play bball(Steve Francis is a perfect example of a guy that should have been on the bench his first few years.. Sometimes you have to force young guys to rip the position out of a starters hands. Not just get it because the guy above them is playing poorly or not giving 100%. The guy not giving 100% is lost but the young guyif he is worth his salt he will not be sad, he will battle even harder until the position is his and noone is able to question it. This is what is happening now. And it's pretty clear that seeing overpaid vets play in front of them has had no effect negatively on our young guys. 3 or 4 years down the line this would not work, but right now it's the same way I would have gone.
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oohah
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4/10/2006  2:25 PM
why? Thats the point your missing. LB doesnt matter. Just like Lenny, Herb and Chaney didnt matter. Guys quit on Lenny and Herb also. Same guys made the same bad plays. Marbury didnt buy into DAntoni's system. Penny admitted neither of them did. How sad when players decide to buy or not buy into a coach's philosophy. Looks like Mike D was right huh? I'm confident when Marbury is gone next year and we are winning with a PG possesing far less "talent" people will see Larry was right as well.

Until the culture changes its just going to be another coach's fault, and another, and another.

I am not missing any point at all. Lenny Herb and Chaney all did better jobs getting their team to play for them, squeezing out every last win, that's the point YOU are missing.

I am not into the revolving coaches. I though Chaney was Jobbed, I KNOW Wilkens was Jobbed, and in hindsight, so was Williams.

But they got the most out of their teams, not the least and then some like Brown.

Now tell me where you have ever seen me call for LB's head. I'm certain you won't answer that because it has never happened.

All I have said is that he mishandled this team, a point I have made since the before the six game streak, and during that streak as well. Your reply back then: "With every win your opinion gets more dodgy".

My opinion remains the same. LB could have done better. He mishandled the team. If he had done okay or just plain bad instead of god-awful I wouldn't even bring his name up. But even LB admitted the other day that there were thousands of things he would have done differently. That means he made mistakes. That means he could have done a much better job. Admit it already, it won't kill you.

And next year when the Knicks are mediocre you can go crazy with happiness. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have been mediocre this year and looking forward to bigger things next year.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 04-10-2006 2:26 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bippity10
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4/10/2006  3:23 PM
Oohaah: Get over your intense desire to find me in some sort of inconsistency and label me a Brown lover. Stop taking things so personally.

"LB has not done a good job coaching us to wins this year."-This quote is from two posts ago.

Before I go on please allw me to apologize for questioning the reading comprehension skills earlier .

Anyway, I think I've now said this over 100 times in the past 3 months. I defended Marbury when LB went after him in the press. I've been saying it for months but everytime I say there are things that I like that he has done, some people(notice I'm not mentioning your name so jump to your own conclusion) hop on me and start with this you never admit that LB sucks nonsense. I am one of the most opinionated people on this board and have no fear of expressing my opinion. If I don't like what someone does I say it. If I like something I mention it. I guess maybe I'm too subtle. From now on when I criticize I will end by saying I think the person sucks so that it's clear.

We are 21-10000. I don't like what anybody has done this year. Noone in this organization has succeeded. From the GM to the owner to the players to the coaches(also said this a million times). Noone gets a free pass with me. I just don't feel the need to get all bent out of shape and exasperated over a roster that was not going to be successful to begin with. I guess maybe because I didn't let the hiring of Brown fool me inot thinking we were going to be very good in the first place.

There are players on this roster that I hate with a passion yet you won't know it because I don't have an urge to come on here and blast them all day. I make sarcastic comments to vent my frustration and leave it at that. When I don't like an LB move I make a sarcastic comment and leave it at that just like every other player on this roster. I don't feel the need to hate him for it. I simply move on to the next topic. So I guess the next time I say something nice about the guy those that despise him will notice I said something nice and assume I never have ever said anything bad. We can definitely turn it into a study of psychology.

I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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4/10/2006  3:25 PM
Posted by oohah:
why? Thats the point your missing. LB doesnt matter. Just like Lenny, Herb and Chaney didnt matter. Guys quit on Lenny and Herb also. Same guys made the same bad plays. Marbury didnt buy into DAntoni's system. Penny admitted neither of them did. How sad when players decide to buy or not buy into a coach's philosophy. Looks like Mike D was right huh? I'm confident when Marbury is gone next year and we are winning with a PG possesing far less "talent" people will see Larry was right as well.

Until the culture changes its just going to be another coach's fault, and another, and another.

I am not missing any point at all. Lenny Herb and Chaney all did better jobs getting their team to play for them, squeezing out every last win, that's the point YOU are missing.

I am not into the revolving coaches. I though Chaney was Jobbed, I KNOW Wilkens was Jobbed, and in hindsight, so was Williams.

But they got the most out of their teams, not the least and then some like Brown.

Now tell me where you have ever seen me call for LB's head. I'm certain you won't answer that because it has never happened.

All I have said is that he mishandled this team, a point I have made since the before the six game streak, and during that streak as well. Your reply back then: "With every win your opinion gets more dodgy".

My opinion remains the same. LB could have done better. He mishandled the team. If he had done okay or just plain bad instead of god-awful I wouldn't even bring his name up. But even LB admitted the other day that there were thousands of things he would have done differently. That means he made mistakes. That means he could have done a much better job. Admit it already, it won't kill you.

And next year when the Knicks are mediocre you can go crazy with happiness. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have been mediocre this year and looking forward to bigger things next year.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 04-10-2006 2:26 PM]


I find it ironic that you think mediocrity would excite me and yet you praise the jobs of Chaney, Wilkens and Williams. Maybe you should read my posts more thoroughly or just ignore me. Either one would probably bring you more happiness, and that's what life is about. Happiness.
I just hope that people will like me
Bonn1997
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4/10/2006  4:20 PM
Number one half the line-up doesn't play hard.
Then sit that half! You don't need more than an 8 man rotation (half the roster by your calculations)
Number 2 we have a lot of young guys. And since bball is a game of habits we can't just hand the minutes to the young guys. This has been done in the NBA for the better part of a decade and that is why you have so many guys in the NBA with tremendous skills and no idea how to play bball(
But YOU are the only one ever talking about the topic of handing young guys minutes without earning them. I want the exact opposite! You gotta get out of your system IMO the idea that if you want high effort to be rewarded, it means you want free minutes handed to the young players. I don't understand how anyone would reach that conclusion from that premise (it seems logical to reach the opposite conclusion), but it's the response you give me every time.
Bippity10
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4/10/2006  4:30 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Number one half the line-up doesn't play hard.
Then sit that half! You don't need more than an 8 man rotation (half the roster by your calculations)
Number 2 we have a lot of young guys. And since bball is a game of habits we can't just hand the minutes to the young guys. This has been done in the NBA for the better part of a decade and that is why you have so many guys in the NBA with tremendous skills and no idea how to play bball(
But YOU are the only one ever talking about the topic of handing young guys minutes without earning them. I want the exact opposite! You gotta get out of your system IMO the idea that if you want high effort to be rewarded, it means you want free minutes handed to the young players. I don't understand how anyone would reach that conclusion from that premise (it seems logical to reach the opposite conclusion), but it's the response you give me every time.

Bonn it's a difference of opinion and coaching philosophy and neither is wrong. Although some us ask for the firing of coach's that don't do it our way. I'm just drawing on personal experience. From my own coaching when young guys are forced to earn positions and then get them when they are ready to compete mentally against the better competition those guys excel. The real players will wonder why they aren't playing, get po'd and play even harder. they will be the guys that lead you to titles. The one's that cry about not getting the time and say coach sucks and stop playing hard were going to let you down eventually anyway.

I have handed minutes to players because the guy in front of them wasn't producing. But what I've found is that young guys that aren't ready for that level yet mentally, who are handed these positions at this point are the one's that get their confidence shattered. At that point I may give the spot to a lesser talented veteran player who can handle the competition mentally over a young guy that is not mentally ready. These guys lose confidence and start falling back on habits they learned before they got to this level because they have nothing else to fall back on. They then carry these habits with them and it's a devil to get rid of them. I'd rather have a guy develop good habits in practice and the offseason than to have him fall back on bad habits during game play because he isn't mentally ready to compete. It's just a personal philosophy.

I just hope that people will like me
Bonn1997
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4/10/2006  4:53 PM
You're agreeing with every principle I state (never handing minutes to players who don't earn them, never playing young players when they're not ready) but treating it like we disagree on these principles. Where we disagree is that I want Brown or any coach to adhere to those principles and will criticize a coach (like Brown) who doesn't
Bippity10
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4/10/2006  5:10 PM
Again you are saying we disagree on this but you are missing one key thing. You are not in practices, you do not know when a player doesn't know the plays or doesn't understand the defense or comes to the coach and talks teary eyed about something and shows he has clearly lost his confidence. None of us see these things yet we all jump to conclusions that the coach just can't see what he has in his personnel.

Playing hard, playing right and being mentally ready encapsulates everything. What happens in game time, on the practice court, what happens on the plane ride. It's all related but we only have access to one and then jump to conclusions as to who should be playing.

I've had it happen a million times where people blast me for not playing a guy. He's clearly playing hard on the court. Everyone can see it. Yes even the "stupid" coach can see it. But what nobody sees is that we are halfway through the season and it still takes the player 10 or 15 seconds into a trip to figure out the play. It's a learning process and by keeping him out there I lower his confidence, make him think rather than react. That's what the practice floor is for.

You'll notice our young guys would play 5 games, sit a couple games and then play again. You think this is because LB has no clue and just doesn't care who he plays? Think hard, do you honestly think this is the truth? Or do you think he is asking players to practice hard, continue to practice hard, rid themselves of some bad habits and when they do he gets them back on the court. The young guys seem to love him so they seem to be understanding. And more importantly they are developing. As for the vets, who cares about who gets playing time, that can be determined on a night to night basis.

The rookies have played the fourth quarters for the past month now. Maybe they are being rewarded we are just to angry that they aren't playing 48 minutes a night to notice it.
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Bonn1997
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4/10/2006  5:40 PM
Again you are saying we disagree on this but you are missing one key thing. You are not in practices, you do not know when a player doesn't know the plays or doesn't understand the defense or comes to the coach and talks teary eyed about something and shows he has clearly lost his confidence. None of us see these things yet we all jump to conclusions that the coach just can't see what he has in his personnel.
Regardless of what happens in practices, there's no reason for lazy guys like Curry, JJ, and Mo T to get the minutes they've gotten.
BlueSeats
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4/10/2006  11:23 PM
I gotta figure this is some kind of compromise situation between Larry and Isiah wherein they agreed to just keep coaching everyone, let everyone keep trying, don't give up on anyone, let everyone be allowed to turn the corner or prove themselves at any time. And Larry can say that guys may have given up on him but he hasn't given up on them.
Bonn1997
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4/11/2006  7:54 AM
There's a difference between not giving up on a lazy player and *starting* that lazy player or even just playing the lazy player *ahead* of hard workers.
NYKniCksFan87
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4/11/2006  8:12 AM
francis cried after last nights game...this time hwas crying over minutes and how he was lacking them
''We don't have the luxury to take anybody lightly,'' New York's Quentin Richardson said. ''We're not that good.''
BlueSeats
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4/11/2006  11:51 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

There's a difference between not giving up on a lazy player and *starting* that lazy player or even just playing the lazy player *ahead* of hard workers.

Just so I know, who exactly are we speaking of? Taylor over Butler?
Bonn1997
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4/11/2006  12:11 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by Bonn1997:

There's a difference between not giving up on a lazy player and *starting* that lazy player or even just playing the lazy player *ahead* of hard workers.

Just so I know, who exactly are we speaking of? Taylor over Butler?
Taylor and Eddy are the lazy ones I had in mind there, although for far too long in the season Larry was even playing JJ over Butler.

BlueSeats
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4/11/2006  12:19 PM
I think when you have a guy as young as butler competing for time against guys at critical stages of their careers your gonna extend a little more courtesy, for lack of a better word, to the higher paid and older player.

You can hear Larry's disbelief in the woefulness of some of these vets when says something like 'the kids played great, and I looked out there and realized that was our summer league team out there." I think his 30 years in the league just has him expect that if a vet will try he'll at least be able to compete with a 20 yr old pudgy kid.

Anyway, I still think you can micro assess any of these moves this year. LB is simply playing everyone. Whether it's courtesy to them, or Isiah, or to Dolan's money, or to his own expectations, I don't know.

What's your theory?
Bippity10
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4/11/2006  12:47 PM
I'm with Blue Seats on this one, it's an unfortunate circumstance because of the way our team has been run but you sometimes have to give the vet the benefit of the doubt, even i they stink, instead of putting them in a position to fail and then losing them down the line. Butler, Lee, QWoods and Nate have all developed as much as can be expected, so what is the issue besides "we want to watch the young guys"
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Damn....francis cried after the game last night
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