Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

tkf wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Kobe - 26 points on 10-32 - superstar!

Dwight 1-3 in 17 mins and gets thrown out

Nice going Mr D

Fields - 18 points on 8-11!! 10 rebounds and 4 steals

YET MANY on here felt brewer was an upgrade... rofl.....

I agree brewer sucks,but when will fields post another line like this? Fields sucked too but every dog has his day, and a broke clock is right twice a day.

fields did that a lot while with the knicks... go look at his game logs..

In 2010-11 fields averaged 9pts,1.3 tos,6rebs a game
In 2011-12 8.8 pts,1.5tos,4.2 rebs
In 2013 5pts 5 rebs his career avg for assists is 2 per game.
So as Clyde would say his last game was aberration.

How can you look at per game stats without considering minutes played? Per 36 min, he's averaged 10.8 points on 48% shooting (.548 true shooting %), 6.6 rbs (mostly as an SG), and 2.6 assists.

Has he been playing 36 mins a game? I looked at season averages and they aint that impressive to me.

Of course they aren't to you. You don't understand that the more minutes you play, the higher your scoring, rebounds, and other #s will be.

But you have to actually PLAY those mins,projections dont mean squat.I could PROJECT to make a million dollars this yr but if I dont it dont mean jack. You can project a players numbers if that player plays 48 mins but if he dont play those mins,his stats are what they are.

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

3G4G wrote:Rockets went from the most prolific offense to the worst offense in the matter of 2weeks...SHEESH they look brutal right about now....

Houston's now on a 7 game losing streak with Jeremy Lin as their starting PG. The starting PG position is a position of leadership. And Jeremy Lin is currently failing in Houston. Only 9 points after shooting 4/12 against the Hornets, along with 5 Turnovers to make it even worse? An awful, more like a horrible 2/13 shooting with only 7 points during a 7 point loss against the 76ers? Being out played/performed by a backup in Bledsoe during CP's absence? Being out played by Rondo? Now last night going 3/12 (horrible) with only 12 points against Minny? Only 2 assists when compared to 3 turnovers? Yet another Jeremy Lin/Houston loss. Basketball is a team game yes, but Jeremy Lin himself is a big time reason why Houston's dropped seven consecutive. A big reason why at that.

Jeremy Lin, as a starting PG, has been nothing but mediocre dating back to last season. 6 game losing streak with our Knicks last season followed by already losing 7 consecutive here in 2012-2013. Sat out the entire playoffs. This kid isn't a winner. A below average and/or mediocre record of 36-32 as a starting PG thus far. How about we watch Lin begin to lead his teams to victories, on a consistent basis before talking him up as some type of "must have PG" in which our Knicks front office let walk. And rightfully so too. Especially considering the fact that Houston paid out millions upon millions of dollars for A.) A kid who's never won in this league. B.) Was sleeping on a couch last season and C.) Doesn't deserve and/or never earned the type of money he's currently getting.

My guess tells me, that Houston over paid for a player who's never been a leader, has never shown leadership ability, and will never become a true leader. But yea, it was nice to check the scoreboard and see that both Chicago and Atlanta lost. Just can't get over the fact that Jeremy Lin was made out to be some type of can't miss prospect and/or anything other than a dime a dozen type of NBA career journeyman. No different than Chris Copeland. You put Copeland on another team outside of the Knicks, and ask him to score points, and Copeland would put up buckets as a 28 year old rookie.

If the Rockets continue their losing ways with Lin under control (starting PG), Jeremy Lin himself will be considered one of the most overrated career journeyman of all-time heading into next season. At the age of 24, Lin should be better than this. Much better than this to say the least. Kid's like Kyrie Irving are dropping 23.1 points and 5.7 assists per game at the age of only 20... Please, never let me see someone use Irving and the Cavs as an excuse to Lin's current situation there in Houston.

Houston is 21-21 in the West. What were your expectations of the team at this point?

You also declared that the starting PG position was one of leadership and then equated Lin with a player who is a leader and in a position to win games by himself despite his teams roster; I don't recall those assumptions being right or relevant.

Also, being outplayed by Rondo a devastating matter?

This is Lin's first full season? With a team that is mediocre at best and is 21-21 out west. What were your expectations of him? I don't think they are set right.

excellent point martin.... as i mentioned earlier, with or without harden, the rockets are pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations...

Really, they supposedly got better players than Dragic and Martin yet they are on pace with last year give or take. It's still time to turn it around but that low expectations stuff can go

But they're younger with more cap room. They did what we were always told here was the hard part - get a franchise player - and now just have the easier job of getting a supporting cast.

They did what we were trying to do before adding an uninsured Amare entering his 30s. Where they got it right is they added a 23yr franchise player

bingo!!! they had a plan, stuck to it, were patience and executed.. so far, so good...

Rockets got lucky. Rarely do teams trade 23yr top 5 franchise talent. Kudos to them for going after a start who was masquerading as a 6th man.

More conventional way is to build through high lottery picks. Something the Knicks had a chance at for over a decade and squandered every single time

Yup, Harden doesn't get traded in the first place if it weren't a small market team, plus OKC aint hurting one single bit and looks like they will have a nice lotto pick to add to a contender.

That's where great management comes in.....sell high.

OKC didn't play Harden enough. If they had, people would have realized he was a franchise player. They're fortunate to have gotten as much as they did for him but I think they could have gotten more if everyone knew he was a franchise player at the time. They basically got a lot of unknowns and one known very solid but not outstanding player.

I dont think he is a franchise player, but a very good 2nd fiddle, but the package they got for him was exactly what they wanted, which could be even better depending on that lotto pick.

Houston on the other hand got Harden, both team won in that deal.

Put it this way: He's as much of a franchise player as anyone not named Chris Paul, Lebron James, or Kevin Durant. I could respect an argument that those are the only 3 franchise players in the league though and Harden is in tier 2.

When mentioning LeBron, CP3 and Durant... You forgot one person. Carmelo Anthony.

How many rings do CP3 and Durant have combined? How many years was LeBron in the league before winning his first (and only) ring during a shortened season last year?

To consider Melo as anything other than a franchise player is clueless. Denver missed the postseason during 7/8 consecutive seasons before the drafting of Carmelo Anthony. After the drafting of Carmelo Anthony the Nuggets have made the postseason each and every season dating back to Melo's rookie season. Melo changed the culture of Denver's franchise and is without question, an elite franchise player. During Melo's FIRST FULL SEASON here in N.Y? We're the #2 seed and battling for the #1 seed only 1 game out.

Your shots at Melo is becoming pathetic. Question. I see 1997 in your user name. Please don't tell me that's the year you were born in. 1997?

Also, let's not even THINK ABOUT considering Harden as a "franchise player". What has Harden ever done, other than ride both Durant and Westbrook's jock strap? No Harden and OKC is stronger than ever. Harden in Houston? 7 game losing streak and struggling to perform at anything better than .500.

This isn't necessary, certainly didn't warrant bringing the Knicks into it.

When you state that there are "only" 3 franchise players and leave Melo out as a way of bashing Melo... You're damn right I'm going to mention the Knicks. All-Around the NBA thread or not. Denver missed the postseason during 7 consecutive seasons before the drafting of Melo. They've yet to miss the postseason since the drafting of Melo. This man changed the culture of their franchise as a true franchise player. During Melo's first full season in New York? He's led us to the #2 seed without the help of Shumpert and Stoudemire. Camby and Rasheed has been banged up. But Melo, has still led us to the #2 seed during only his first full season as a Knick.

I'm sorry for going off topic, but no, I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when someone claims Melo's not a franchise player by mentioning the likes of CP3, Durant and LeBron.

I think what would really help your arguments is if you are just realistic about carmelo.. plain and simple.. he is not on the level of lebron, durant,paul or even derrick rose... and he is falling behind those young guys who most feel are tier two players... I am not letting his volume shooting and scoring this year fool me.. I have seen this before.... and we all know what carmelo is.... no need to fool yourself.. if you are a fan of his, fine, but keeping things in perspective is key here.... you keep saying melo has led us to the #2 seed.. that is so presumptuous.. the season is far from over and we have 3 teams breathing down our necks!!!

??? Melo is not Lebron so no argument there. Durant's numbers since the start of his career are almost identical to Melo's during the same time frame. What makes Durant better? His game is identical to Melo's. That he went to the Finals with Westbrook, Ibaka & Harden? CP3 is a great player but what has he accomplished? Rose?

there is nothing identical when it comes to durant and carmelo.. nothing...

rose and CP3 haven't accomplished a championship.... true, but that doesn't make carmelo their equal..... I think if we start here we can really clear up a lot.. what does carmelo do other than streak score? these guys have other facets to their game in which they can take over games.... Durant is better because he does what carmelo does more efficiently... let me ask this.. if Durant were a knick, would you Honestly think carmelo was his equal? honestly?

and this season durant is racking up a lot more assists especially lately. that was the part of his game he was dedicated to developing next and guess what-- he has. this is what a legitimate MVP player looks like. you get yours but also get others theirs. only lebron is going to stand in his way of mvps. it's crazy comparing carmelo to either lebron and durant. he would have to improve his playmaking skills and he just can't. he was given an opportunity last season and showed he can't do it.

when melo starts showing the ability to get his and also get others theirs the comparison won't be so ridiculous.

yep, and the most impressive thing with durant is that he didn't let russel westbrook interfere with Durant making the team better.... with all of westbrook flaws as a PG, it is like durant embraced all of westbrook strenghts instead... he understand that with westbrook flaws he is a talented and fiery player, and he lets westbrook be himself.... and because of that, durant shines... No matter what westbrook does, everyone recognizes durant as the man on that team... yet you can appreciate what westbrook brings.... durant really is just a special player and person it seems..

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, that's a common misunderstanding. So long as there's a reasonably sufficient sample, it's rare for the #s not to project accurately. People shouldn't really be surprised when they see Harden playing at this level, for example, even though they thought the contract was absurd when given. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=43116 I remember how shocked people were when David Lee's #s kept escalating as he got more min or are now surprised that Asik's averaging so many rebounds.

I agree, a player actually plays more mins his stats are going to go up,but to PROJECT what if a player played more mins, is like woulda,coulda,shoulda. What if Melo played 48 mins a game? I dont care because no player does that. I take stats for what they are,real mins played=real stats.JMHO

There is no perfect way to evaluate players. The issue is are you going to make more mistakes when you go by per game stats or by per minute stats. I think there's good evidence for giving more weight to the latter. You can look up per 48 min stats for Melo and all other players actually. The # you settle on doesn't really matter as long as you pick the same # for all players. Most sites use per 36 min stats.

I go by actual stats.Thats just me.If someone else wants to do it by another method so be it. To each his own.

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, that's a common misunderstanding. So long as there's a reasonably sufficient sample, it's rare for the #s not to project accurately. People shouldn't really be surprised when they see Harden playing at this level, for example, even though they thought the contract was absurd when given. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=43116 I remember how shocked people were when David Lee's #s kept escalating as he got more min or are now surprised that Asik's averaging so many rebounds.

I agree, a player actually plays more mins his stats are going to go up,but to PROJECT what if a player played more mins, is like woulda,coulda,shoulda. What if Melo played 48 mins a game? I dont care because no player does that. I take stats for what they are,real mins played=real stats.JMHO

Let me ask you this, then. What was your evaluation of James Harden before this year? If all you look at is per game stats, then he didn't even look like a top 50 player in the league - just 17 points, 4 rbs, 4 assists. That seems like a guy who's probably worth not much more than $5 or 6 mil per year.
Or what about Omar Asik? He was averaging 3 points, 5 rbs, which would probably have made him more suited for the NBDL than NBA unless you adjust for playing time.

Harden,JUST 17 pts per game?? Some teams dont have a second tier player avg 17 pts per game. But to me harden is a streaky player and Asik,got his mins per game and took advantage of those mins. Let me ask you this,if Copeland got 30 mins a game and 12 shots per game, what do you think he would average?

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, that's a common misunderstanding. So long as there's a reasonably sufficient sample, it's rare for the #s not to project accurately. People shouldn't really be surprised when they see Harden playing at this level, for example, even though they thought the contract was absurd when given. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=43116 I remember how shocked people were when David Lee's #s kept escalating as he got more min or are now surprised that Asik's averaging so many rebounds.

I agree, a player actually plays more mins his stats are going to go up,but to PROJECT what if a player played more mins, is like woulda,coulda,shoulda. What if Melo played 48 mins a game? I dont care because no player does that. I take stats for what they are,real mins played=real stats.JMHO

Let me ask you this, then. What was your evaluation of James Harden before this year? If all you look at is per game stats, then he didn't even look like a top 50 player in the league - just 17 points, 4 rbs, 4 assists. That seems like a guy who's probably worth not much more than $5 or 6 mil per year.
Or what about Omar Asik? He was averaging 3 points, 5 rbs, which would probably have made him more suited for the NBDL than NBA unless you adjust for playing time.

Harden,JUST 17 pts per game?? Some teams dont have a second tier player avg 17 pts per game. But to me harden is a streaky player and Asik,got his mins per game and took advantage of those mins. Let me ask you this,if Copeland got 30 mins a game and 12 shots per game, what do you think he would average?

Hard to say. Notice before that I said the per 36 min #s usually project accurately if they're based on a reasonably sufficient sample. There's obviously some ambiguity in that but I think a few years of coming the bench is reasonable. A fraction of one season isn't.
17/4/4 is basically what JR Smith is putting up this year for $2.5 mil. If you're serious about just looking at per game stats, I doubt you would have offered Harden much more than the MLE.

JR is the exception to the rule money wise. Jr stayed here because this team gave him a chance,knowing that he has been a knuckhead his whole career. What Harden is getting,IMHO, is a fair salary. So PROJECT Copes numbers my friend.

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, that's a common misunderstanding. So long as there's a reasonably sufficient sample, it's rare for the #s not to project accurately. People shouldn't really be surprised when they see Harden playing at this level, for example, even though they thought the contract was absurd when given. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=43116 I remember how shocked people were when David Lee's #s kept escalating as he got more min or are now surprised that Asik's averaging so many rebounds.

I agree, a player actually plays more mins his stats are going to go up,but to PROJECT what if a player played more mins, is like woulda,coulda,shoulda. What if Melo played 48 mins a game? I dont care because no player does that. I take stats for what they are,real mins played=real stats.JMHO

Let me ask you this, then. What was your evaluation of James Harden before this year? If all you look at is per game stats, then he didn't even look like a top 50 player in the league - just 17 points, 4 rbs, 4 assists. That seems like a guy who's probably worth not much more than $5 or 6 mil per year.
Or what about Omar Asik? He was averaging 3 points, 5 rbs, which would probably have made him more suited for the NBDL than NBA unless you adjust for playing time.

Harden,JUST 17 pts per game?? Some teams dont have a second tier player avg 17 pts per game. But to me harden is a streaky player and Asik,got his mins per game and took advantage of those mins. Let me ask you this,if Copeland got 30 mins a game and 12 shots per game, what do you think he would average?

Hard to say. Notice before that I said the per 36 min #s usually project accurately if they're based on a reasonably sufficient sample. There's obviously some ambiguity in that but I think a few years of coming the bench is reasonable. A fraction of one season isn't.
17/4/4 is basically what JR Smith is putting up this year for $2.5 mil. If you're serious about just looking at per game stats, I doubt you would have offered Harden much more than the MLE.

JR is the exception to the rule money wise. Jr stayed here because this team gave him a chance,knowing that he has been a knuckhead his whole career. What Harden is getting,IMHO, is a fair salary. So PROJECT Copes numbers my friend.

Reading trouble? When I have a few years of data, I will happily make a projection for Copeland.

No I dont have "reading trouble" and I find that an insult on your part. But to get on point, Cope is 28 yrs old and has experience in all the "other" leagues. So if you base your projection on Copes past bball history, what would his avgs be?

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, that's a common misunderstanding. So long as there's a reasonably sufficient sample, it's rare for the #s not to project accurately. People shouldn't really be surprised when they see Harden playing at this level, for example, even though they thought the contract was absurd when given. http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=43116 I remember how shocked people were when David Lee's #s kept escalating as he got more min or are now surprised that Asik's averaging so many rebounds.

I agree, a player actually plays more mins his stats are going to go up,but to PROJECT what if a player played more mins, is like woulda,coulda,shoulda. What if Melo played 48 mins a game? I dont care because no player does that. I take stats for what they are,real mins played=real stats.JMHO

Let me ask you this, then. What was your evaluation of James Harden before this year? If all you look at is per game stats, then he didn't even look like a top 50 player in the league - just 17 points, 4 rbs, 4 assists. That seems like a guy who's probably worth not much more than $5 or 6 mil per year.
Or what about Omar Asik? He was averaging 3 points, 5 rbs, which would probably have made him more suited for the NBDL than NBA unless you adjust for playing time.

Harden,JUST 17 pts per game?? Some teams dont have a second tier player avg 17 pts per game. But to me harden is a streaky player and Asik,got his mins per game and took advantage of those mins. Let me ask you this,if Copeland got 30 mins a game and 12 shots per game, what do you think he would average?

Hard to say. Notice before that I said the per 36 min #s usually project accurately if they're based on a reasonably sufficient sample. There's obviously some ambiguity in that but I think a few years of coming the bench is reasonable. A fraction of one season isn't.
17/4/4 is basically what JR Smith is putting up this year for $2.5 mil. If you're serious about just looking at per game stats, I doubt you would have offered Harden much more than the MLE.

JR is the exception to the rule money wise. Jr stayed here because this team gave him a chance,knowing that he has been a knuckhead his whole career. What Harden is getting,IMHO, is a fair salary. So PROJECT Copes numbers my friend.

Reading trouble? When I have a few years of data, I will happily make a projection for Copeland.

No I dont have "reading trouble" and I find that an insult on your part. But to get on point, Cope is 28 yrs old and has experience in all the "other" leagues. So if you base your projection on Copes past bball history, what would his avgs be?

Sorry if that was harsh but I was getting tired of repeating myself. The bigger the sample you have, the smaller the confidence intervals you can use. he's played 325 min, which is comparable to playing about 2 weeks as a starter in the NBA. So I'd have to put huge confidence intervals on any number if you really want me to do it. Let's say at 36 mpg, he'd be anywhere from 6 to 25 PPG, and 3 to 8 rpg. Like I said, any numbers at this point aren't helpful.

Ok fair enuff,Im done

cooch2584 wrote:

tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Kobe - 26 points on 10-32 - superstar!

Dwight 1-3 in 17 mins and gets thrown out

Nice going Mr D

Fields - 18 points on 8-11!! 10 rebounds and 4 steals

YET MANY on here felt brewer was an upgrade... rofl.....

I agree brewer sucks,but when will fields post another line like this? Fields sucked too but every dog has his day, and a broke clock is right twice a day.

Fields is capable of being a pretty good player, but the main problem is he has confidence issues so you can never rely on him when the pressures on. NY is a tough, tough place to play if you have those kinds of issues. He even admitted his terrible play this season was due to the pressure from signing that big contract. I expect him to play better for Toronto than he would have for us.

Unfortunately Brewer also seems to have confidence issues, but if I had to choose between Fields for 7mil per year, or Brewer for $1mil, it's not even close- it's not even open to debate!