martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I will say I think this ball pressure/lack of ballhandlers is overstated a bit.

Playoff defenses are a different animal and you are of course playing a very good team every game.

We are averaging 14.5 TO's per game compared to 13.6 in reg season. ATL has actually turned it over more this series.

TO's aren't everything but we have also outscored ATL by 25 points in this series and really could have swept or be up 3-1 easy.

Alvarado, Shamet, CLarkson, Hart, Brunson, Deuce, even Mikal are all good ball handlers. I'm not sure you can expect to have more than that. Even Kolek is a good ballhandler.

I think to an extent just about every team struggles against playoff caliber defenses, especially when refs swallow the whistle a bit. Just look at the CLE/TOR game from yesterday.

Outside of Brunson, Knicks do not have a guy that can just get his own off the dribble. Zero ankle breaking type dudes. They have guys that can dribble the ball up the court but they do not have intuitive passers from the core of guards/wings relative to their peers.

It matters when you run an offense over many games. Knicks are easily moved into a 10 second or less shot clock team by ball pressure and lack of ball movement out of it.

And it just showed because the Knicks are not easily up 3-1 or 4-0. Pacers and Detroit last year took full advantage of it.

I think Clarkson qualifies for that. but not many teams are going to have 2 or 3 of those guys. I mean even if we still had Donte, does he qualify as an "ankle breaker"? thats a specific scorer/creator more so than just a ballhandler.

martin wrote:Brown and the Knicks really either did not figure out their offense or only started to figure out their offense/defense towards the end of the year. I think that is a fair statement.

Knicks handled Xmas game and NBA Cup very nicely. Kolek in particular was a key cog off the bench in those moments. Knicks were humming. Give or take, that is about a third into the season. Mid January slide also happened and that was ROUGH, just about the mid season mark. Kolek dropped off. Mo and Clarkson were not answers and Deuce/Shamet were not a good fit for that ball handling role either against playoff level teams.

Knicks did not finish figuring out the best versions of themselves during the regular season. KAT, Brunson, Brown are barely fully on the same page as we are into the playoffs. The starting 5 are still flawed going back 2 seasons. The backup PG spot is still not answered, especially at the playoff level - maybe that's Brown, maybe that is skill/experience/trust of the remaining options.

Ball handling in the starting lineup is a 2 year old problem that everyone knows exists for the post KAT trade era, all the while the Knicks were trying to get the Sabonis version of KAT going this past season, which just showed up against Atlanta?

The FO have known about Brunson's flaw of full court pressure, we all have seen it for 4 years ongoing in the playoffs. It has not been fully addressed, either with the starters or the bench. You can win with this type of closer, you may not be able to win without more ball handling support around him. I think every team has that version of a missing ingredient/sturcture for themselves with maybe OKC being the separation exception.

I think it is fair to say the playoffs version of KAT is not the same version we saw pretty much throughout the regular season. At the cost of a playoff game, Brown learned that Deuce/Shamet/Clarkson are not enough ball handlers against a full court pressure playoff team. He could have asked some fans and they could have told him.

Knicks have their Kryptonite that is very visible but not all teams have them: put big wings on either KAT or Brunson and do your best with the downsized match-ups elsewhere, like not guarding Josh on the perimeter.

I don't think any of the above is too far off?

I think there is a reason they got Alvarado and also a reason there was a bunch of Jrue Holiday chatter. Also reasons they set more screens all year with Hart and Deuce then with KAT (to get another ball handler into the action).

But I would agree it hasn't been fully addressed, I just don't think the FO was ready to make a seismic move to the core pieces, because adding a a legit ball handling guard to the starters means OG, Hart, or Mikal are most likely on the outs. Would not be shocked to see it fully addressed next year.

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:Brown and the Knicks really either did not figure out their offense or only started to figure out their offense/defense towards the end of the year. I think that is a fair statement.

Knicks handled Xmas game and NBA Cup very nicely. Kolek in particular was a key cog off the bench in those moments. Knicks were humming. Give or take, that is about a third into the season. Mid January slide also happened and that was ROUGH, just about the mid season mark. Kolek dropped off. Mo and Clarkson were not answers and Deuce/Shamet were not a good fit for that ball handling role either against playoff level teams.

Knicks did not finish figuring out the best versions of themselves during the regular season. KAT, Brunson, Brown are barely fully on the same page as we are into the playoffs. The starting 5 are still flawed going back 2 seasons. The backup PG spot is still not answered, especially at the playoff level - maybe that's Brown, maybe that is skill/experience/trust of the remaining options.

Ball handling in the starting lineup is a 2 year old problem that everyone knows exists for the post KAT trade era, all the while the Knicks were trying to get the Sabonis version of KAT going this past season, which just showed up against Atlanta?

The FO have known about Brunson's flaw of full court pressure, we all have seen it for 4 years ongoing in the playoffs. It has not been fully addressed, either with the starters or the bench. You can win with this type of closer, you may not be able to win without more ball handling support around him. I think every team has that version of a missing ingredient/sturcture for themselves with maybe OKC being the separation exception.

I think it is fair to say the playoffs version of KAT is not the same version we saw pretty much throughout the regular season. At the cost of a playoff game, Brown learned that Deuce/Shamet/Clarkson are not enough ball handlers against a full court pressure playoff team. He could have asked some fans and they could have told him.

Knicks have their Kryptonite that is very visible but not all teams have them: put big wings on either KAT or Brunson and do your best with the downsized match-ups elsewhere, like not guarding Josh on the perimeter.

I don't think any of the above is too far off?

I think there is a reason they got Alvarado and also a reason there was a bunch of Jrue Holiday chatter. Also reasons they set more screens all year with Hart and Deuce then with KAT (to get another ball handler into the action).

But I would agree it hasn't been fully addressed, I just don't think the FO was ready to make a seismic move to the core pieces, because adding a a legit ball handling guard to the starters means OG, Hart, or Mikal are most likely on the outs. Would not be shocked to see it fully addressed next year.

Right, and thus the short lived Mo and Kolek experiments. Maybe Kolek/Mo will be enough for next year. Maybe a Deuce/Alvarodo/picks trade is also OK. Ayo was out there.

nycericanguy wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I will say I think this ball pressure/lack of ballhandlers is overstated a bit.

Playoff defenses are a different animal and you are of course playing a very good team every game.

We are averaging 14.5 TO's per game compared to 13.6 in reg season. ATL has actually turned it over more this series.

TO's aren't everything but we have also outscored ATL by 25 points in this series and really could have swept or be up 3-1 easy.

Alvarado, Shamet, CLarkson, Hart, Brunson, Deuce, even Mikal are all good ball handlers. I'm not sure you can expect to have more than that. Even Kolek is a good ballhandler.

I think to an extent just about every team struggles against playoff caliber defenses, especially when refs swallow the whistle a bit. Just look at the CLE/TOR game from yesterday.

Outside of Brunson, Knicks do not have a guy that can just get his own off the dribble. Zero ankle breaking type dudes. They have guys that can dribble the ball up the court but they do not have intuitive passers from the core of guards/wings relative to their peers.

It matters when you run an offense over many games. Knicks are easily moved into a 10 second or less shot clock team by ball pressure and lack of ball movement out of it.

And it just showed because the Knicks are not easily up 3-1 or 4-0. Pacers and Detroit last year took full advantage of it.

I think Clarkson qualifies for that. but not many teams are going to have 2 or 3 of those guys. I mean even if we still had Donte, does he qualify as an "ankle breaker"? thats a specific scorer/creator more so than just a ballhandler.

When Brown had Clarkson/Deuce/Shamet on the court at the same time, Clarkson was not bringing the ball up the court or the main backup PG initiating offense. That's a Brown flaw right? Clarkson was also DNP'ed for most of the season for other reasons, so even though he is on roster, he has been marginalized. He does do his thing every once in a while, but it was after Deuce/Shamet struggled with the ball for 10-15 seconds of the clock?

Knicks have a lack of both the ball handling and ball mover/creator types. I thought iHart was a kinda sorta mix of ball mover/creator because of his passing and pick setting which freed up guys like Brunson. KAT is finally in that hub role but hasn't been the entire year, or at least effectively.

that was definitely a miscue by Brown, having Deuce initiate alot in game 2 & 3, because he's not a PG. I think that was corrected a bit, and I also think we need to see more of Shamet.

Clarkson, gotta give him credit he took the benching in stride and came back and seemingly reinvented himself after all these years, something very few vets would do. He's somehow become a pesky defender, rebounder, who can also handle, create and score. So I'd say he has a good role on this team going forward.

In a perfect world we'd still have DDV, even though he's not a big creator, his range, quick release and handling keeps defenders very honest.

Its a Brunson weakness for sure, just saying its being a bit overstated right now. It didn't stop us from beating DET & BOS last year, and we have outplayed ATL who was the best team in the East POST ASB. despite it being 2-2. now its a 3 game set and we have HCA, I like our chances.

Since Derrick Rose, the Knicks have not had a solid playoff level backup PG. That was 5 years ago. Mikal OG Deuce Shamet, all the main guards/wings in the rotation can barely dribble against pressure. Hart is a straight line guy in transition. None of those collective guys are really facilitators, they are end points.

Your "bit overstated" is my "we prob could have had a much easier time against Detroit last year and possibly gotten past Indiana to the finals and also be up 4-0 in this years series and into the second round already" response to how overstated it could be.

MaTT4281 wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

martin wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I will say I think this ball pressure/lack of ballhandlers is overstated a bit.

Playoff defenses are a different animal and you are of course playing a very good team every game.

We are averaging 14.5 TO's per game compared to 13.6 in reg season. ATL has actually turned it over more this series.

TO's aren't everything but we have also outscored ATL by 25 points in this series and really could have swept or be up 3-1 easy.

Alvarado, Shamet, CLarkson, Hart, Brunson, Deuce, even Mikal are all good ball handlers. I'm not sure you can expect to have more than that. Even Kolek is a good ballhandler.

I think to an extent just about every team struggles against playoff caliber defenses, especially when refs swallow the whistle a bit. Just look at the CLE/TOR game from yesterday.

Outside of Brunson, Knicks do not have a guy that can just get his own off the dribble. Zero ankle breaking type dudes. They have guys that can dribble the ball up the court but they do not have intuitive passers from the core of guards/wings relative to their peers.

It matters when you run an offense over many games. Knicks are easily moved into a 10 second or less shot clock team by ball pressure and lack of ball movement out of it.

And it just showed because the Knicks are not easily up 3-1 or 4-0. Pacers and Detroit last year took full advantage of it.

I think Clarkson qualifies for that. but not many teams are going to have 2 or 3 of those guys. I mean even if we still had Donte, does he qualify as an "ankle breaker"? thats a specific scorer/creator more so than just a ballhandler.

When Brown had Clarkson/Deuce/Shamet on the court at the same time, Clarkson was not bringing the ball up the court or the main backup PG initiating offense. That's a Brown flaw right? Clarkson was also DNP'ed for most of the season for other reasons, so even though he is on roster, he has been marginalized. He does do his thing every once in a while, but it was after Deuce/Shamet struggled with the ball for 10-15 seconds of the clock?

Knicks have a lack of both the ball handling and ball mover/creator types. I thought iHart was a kinda sorta mix of ball mover/creator because of his passing and pick setting which freed up guys like Brunson. KAT is finally in that hub role but hasn't been the entire year, or at least effectively.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Clarkson played in 72 games for us; adjusting for garbage time, he had another 10 games where he played 10 or fewer minutes. Without that, he's at 62 games, 19.7 mpg.

He fell out of the rotation as Brown experimented a bit and then incorporated Alvarado. He's had time to shake off rust from that period and is playing better than he did at the start of the year IMO, certainly better defense and energy. I might complain about Brown, but I won't fault him on that.

I agree with the rest though. We need a second ball handler to keep the ball moving, and we've kind of forced Josh into that role at different times as Brunson gets blitzed. Deuce definitely isn't it. Alvarado has been sporadic, although the energy boost is much welcomed.

I expect we'll turn to Kolek at some point out of desperation. Trial by fire, Tyler!

Yeah you right.

Feel like Clarkson has been a bit of an afterthought this whole season but maybe that's just me.